Infant Baptism

Strong in Him said:

If original sin means that all babies are sinners and born in sin, then Jesus was too. Hebrews says that he was like us in every way - except that he did not sin. So he can't have had a sinful nature or one that made it impossible for him to sin; so babies can't be born sinners.

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Not quite like us in every way. Only He was born of a Virgin. Only He had God for his natural Father. And only He was God Himself.

ViaCrucis said:

You do need faith, that's correct. How do you get faith?

Scripture says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. So faith comes to you from outside yourself, from God, it is the gracious work of God.

So if faith comes from the Word, where is the Word usually found as part of the new birth? The biblical answer? Ephesians 5:26 says that Christ has cleansed us by the washing of water with the Word. That is, Holy Baptism.

Can God grant faith apart from the Sacrament of Holy Baptism? Of course. But Baptism always has the Word, and the Word always confers faith. Whoever is baptized has faith in Christ Jesus. Which is why Scripture says that in Baptism we died with Christ, having been buried with Him so that we might share in His newness of life; and that in Baptism we have been clothed with Jesus Christ.

To say that you don't need water, but just faith, is to create a false dichotomy unfounded in Scripture. Scripture says what Baptism is and what Baptism does--Baptism creates faith in us, by the power of the Word that is present in and with the water. If Baptism were only water, it would do and be nothing; but because it is water with the Word, it does and accomplishes everything for which God has given it.

So who are we to deny the efficacy of the Word and gifts of God?

-CryptoLutheran

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Peace be with you brother, im alive in Christ and i feel great, nothing can stop the Lords work in me.

Strong in Him said:

If original sin means that all babies are sinners and born in sin, then Jesus was too

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Believe Mary was a virgin and then you'll see no sperm was involved with Jesus.

1 egg + 0 sperm = 1 baby Jesus.

Are you say'in Mary got raped and didn't know about it?

Albion said:

It is your thinking that childbirth itself is a sin, then? There's no other possible interpretation.

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It simply means being born into a fallen world (David was born to a woman under the Law). David (and all infants) had a relationship with God even before birth as spoken in Psalm 22:

But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God. - Psalm 22:9-10

justlovinJesus said:

Hi. My question is just a simple one but with a long backstory.. I was baptized as an infant. I've always held this baptism as a true one based on this: I believe if you are baptized and later on decide to not follow God, your baptism is no longer valid. That being said, I believe in the opposite, if you decide to come to God after being baptized, your baptism is in fact, valid. I've also thought that the babies were dedicated in the Israelites' covenant after 8 days, and entire households were baptized in the New Testament. That being said, the church I belong to now believes my baptism is not valid by noting that in the New Testament, it is 'believe, then be baptized'. This obviously disturbs me because, does my baptism count? Do I need to be re-baptized? I don't know, and I've been following God for a while now and am scared that I've been following all this time but missing a step. I've always thought my baptism was valid until my pastor said it was not. Can somebody shine some light on this?

I go to a church that doesn't have a specific denomnation but clearly leans baptist. I'm posting it here as I do think it's a theology question, although it does fall under 'Christian Advice' as well.

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It would also fall under:

http://www.christianforums.com/f718/
Sacramental/Ordinance Theology A forum for the discussion of the theology of sacraments.

Infant baptism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theology

The basic theology of Christian denominations often varies (see Material principle). For this reason, the meaning of baptism itself and infant baptism in particular depends greatly upon the Christian tradition to which the baptismal candidate belongs.

Agreements among paedobaptists

While there is debatable scriptural evidence (such as that in Colossians 2:11-12), paedobaptists believe that infant baptism is the New Testament counterpart to circumcision. In the Old Testament, all male converts to Judaism, male infants born to Jewish parents, and male servants were circumcised as ceremony of initiation into the Jewish community.[18] Paedobaptists believe that baptism has replaced Old Testament circumcision and is the religious ceremony of initiation into the Christian community.

During the medieval and Reformation eras, infant baptism was seen as a way to incorporate newborn babies into the secular community as well as inducting them into the Christian faith.[19]

Differences among paedobaptists

Roman Catholic Church

The Roman Catholic Church considers baptism, even for an infant, so important that "parents are obliged to see that their infants are baptised within the first few weeks" and, "if the infant is in danger of death, it is to be baptised without any delay."[20] It declares: "The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole 'households' received baptism, infants may also have been baptised".[21]

Other ancient Christian Churches

The Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East also insist on the need to have infants baptised as soon as is practicable after birth. For them too baptism is not merely a symbol but actually conveys grace. Baptism is a sacrament because it is an "instrument" instituted by Jesus Christ to impart grace to its recipients. Infants are traditionally baptised on the eighth day, recalling the biblical injunction to circumcise on the eighth day.

Lutherans

Lutherans practice infant baptism because they believe that God mandates it. They cite biblical passages such as Matthew 28:19, Mark 10:13–15, 16:16, John 3:3–7, Acts 2:38–39 in support of their position. For them baptism is a "means of grace" through which God creates and strengthens "saving faith" as the "washing of regeneration" (Titus 3:5) in which infants and adults are reborn (John 3:3–7): "baptismal regeneration".

Presbyterian and Reformed churches

Presbyterian and Reformed Christians believe that baptism, whether of infants or adults, is a "sign and seal of the covenant of grace", and that baptism admits the party baptised into the visible church.[38] Being a member of the visible church does not guarantee salvation; though it does provide the child with many benefits, including that of one's particular congregation consenting to assist in the raising of that child in "the way he should go, (so that) when he is old he will not turn from it".

Contrasts between Infant and Adult Baptism

The disagreement about infant baptism is grounded in differing theological views at a more basic level. Christians disagree about infant baptism because they disagree about the nature of faith, the role of baptism, the means of salvation, the nature of grace, and the function of the sacraments. Pedobaptism and credobaptism are positions which bubble up from theological views at a more fundamental level of one's theological system.

Covenant theology

Presbyterian and Reformed Christians base their case for infant baptism on Covenant theology.
Covenant theology is a broad interpretative framework used to understand the Bible. Reformed Baptists are in many ways Reformed yet, as their name suggests, adhere to Believers Baptism.

Arguments against infant baptism

• Circumcision was a sign and seal of physical birth, and baptism is a sign and seal of new birth (born again).
• John the Baptist baptised people who were also required to be circumcised.
• Baptism in Scripture always has the prerequisite of repentance and faith, which are impossible for an infant.
• Infants can not outwardly express faith.
• The Lord's Supper and Baptism are both sacraments or ordinances and are the same sign and seal, since the Lord's Supper may not be given to unbelievers, neither should baptism.
• The New Covenant is not purely an expansion of the Old Covenant because the Pharisees and all who did not have faith in Jesus are excluded from the New Covenant, but were acceptable under the old.
• Some claim that there is no evidence that the early church performed (or excluded) paedobaptism, and only that it performed credo baptism by immersion.
• Baptism represents more than just physical washing, but being clean and good standing before God, and therefore regenerate (Romans 6).
• Baptism is for the remission of sins, and infants are not capable of repenting. (Luke 3:3, Mark 1:4, Acts 13:24, Acts 19:4)

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RisingSpirit said:

Believe Mary was a virgin and then you'll see no sperm was involved with Jesus.

1 egg + 0 sperm = 1 baby Jesus.

Are you say'in Mary got raped and didn't know about it?

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Genetically a male cannot be made from a female egg without additional genetic material.

MoreCoffee said:

Genetically a male cannot be made from a female egg without additional genetic material).

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RisingSpirit said:

[SIZE=+1]John Calvin defined Original Sin as "hereditary depravity
and corruption of our nature" (click HERE).

The core concept being that sin isn't principally an act.
It's part of our very nature. Our inherited nature. Which
means we are sinner from the time of our conception and
while still in the womb !

We don't have to do anything to be in a state of sin. We
are sinners even before being old enough to commit sin.


The Belgic Reformed branch of Calvinism reflects this
doctrine in the Belgic Confession. While the Presbyterian
branch teaches the exact same thing in the Westminster
Confession. And, the Second Helvetic Confession
concurs, stating:

"By sin we understand that
innate corruption of man
which has been derived or
propagated in us all from
our first parents"
(HC; Ch. 8)

The Lutheran Augsburg Confession also agrees:

"all men begotten in the
natural way are born with
sin"

And that this "is truly sin". (AC; Article 2).


Sin primarily and foremost a condition being the orthodox
and historical Reformation doctrine. The Pope in Rome,
Pelagius, all semi-Pelagians, the Anabaptist heretics, and
John Piper hold differently.[/SIZE]

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I don't believe in Calvin's doctrine nor do I hold the Lutherans confessions. Call me a heretic, that don't bother me in the least.

Anyway, the Scriptures seem pretty clear to me on how infants are regarded in the eyes of God. Take a look at Israel, for instance, even though most of the Israelites were destroyed in the wilderness for disobeying the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 10:5), the infants were spared and allowed to enter the promised land and take possession of it. Why did God do this?

And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad--they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. Deuteronomy 1:39

God allowed the babies to inherit the promised land because they did not yet have the knowledge between good and evil. In other words, were innocent before God. This is reason that God commands each and everyone to be like little children, otherwise, we too, will not enter the promised land.

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3

Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 1 Corinthians 14:20

Remember, the Kingdom of God belong to little children and ones like them.

Originally Posted by RisingSpirit

Believe Mary was a virgin and then you'll see no sperm was involved with Jesus.

1 egg + 0 sperm = 1 baby Jesus.

Are you say'in Mary got raped and didn't know about it?
​

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MoreCoffee said:

Genetically a male cannot be made from a female egg without additional genetic material.

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Ya don't say...so what additional genetic material did Mary receive in order to conceive Jesus/God?


.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Ya don't say...so what additional genetic material did Mary receive in order to conceive Jesus/God?

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A Y chromosome. Females do not have one, so she could not pass that on.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Ya don't say...so what additional genetic material did Mary receive in order to conceive Jesus/God?


.

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Some real good material. Perfect material. God material.

MoreCoffee said:

LittleLambofJesus said:

Ya don't say...so what additional genetic material did Mary receive in order to conceive Jesus/God?

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A Y chromosome. Females do not have one, so she could not pass that on.

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Rev Randy said:

Some real good material. Perfect material. God material.

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Jesus would have got his Y chromosome from his Father.

Rev Randy said:

Not quite like us in every way. Only He was born of a Virgin. Only He had God for his natural Father. And only He was God Himself.

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I know. Sorry, was trying to quote Hebrews - which says that he was tempted in every way, as we are - from memory and got it slightly wrong.

But Jesus did become flesh and become like us. I think there must have been the possibility that Jesus could sin - the devil wouldn't have tempted him to do wrong if it was impossible.

MoreCoffee said:

Jesus would have got his Y chromosome from his Father.

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The Yahweh chromosome.

Strong in Him said:

I know. Sorry, was trying to quote Hebrews - which says that he was tempted in every way, as we are - from memory and got it slightly wrong.

But Jesus did become flesh and become like us. I think there must have been the possibility that Jesus could sin - the devil wouldn't have tempted him to do wrong if it was impossible.

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RisingSpirit said:

Believe Mary was a virgin and then you'll see no sperm was involved with Jesus.

1 egg + 0 sperm = 1 baby Jesus.

Are you say'in Mary got raped and didn't know about it?

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No of course I'm not; I didn't say anything at all about Mary. I know perfectly well that she was a virgin and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit.
But God was born as a baby - if babies are all born in sin, then Jesus was too, (which is obviously wrong).

I do not believe that babies are born sinners. Sin is deliberately turning away from God and choosing to break his law. Adam was a grown man who fully understood that God did not want him to eat from a certain tree - but he did it anyway. Abraham knew it was wrong for him to lie and pass his wife off as his isister; he still did it - twice! David knew it was wrong to sleep with a married woman and get the husband killed to try to hide the pregnancy - it didn't stop him. The nation of Israel knew perefectly well what God's law, and covenant said - yet they broke it time and time again. Babies don't know what sin is and they don't know God.

Strong in Him said:

But Jesus did become flesh and become like us. I think there must have been the possibility that Jesus could sin - the devil wouldn't have tempted him to do wrong if it was impossible.

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I don't think that that follows any more than the Y chromosome business.

Satan could have tempted him in the belief that he'd sin, even though he wouldn't...or for some other reason; and the conception of Jesus could very well not have followed genetics to the letter, considering that the whole idea of there being a conception under these circumstances doesn't follow science.

MamaZ said:

circumcision in the OT was an outward covenant. The bond woman. The new covenant circumcion of heart. Only God can do that.

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I'm glad that's been brought up. Why did God find it proper for babies to be circumcised? Should He not have waited until they believed and understood?

Originally Posted by Rev Randy

Some real good material. Perfect material. God material.
​

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MoreCoffee said:

Jesus would have got his Y chromosome from his Father.

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Rev Randy said:

The Yahweh chromosome.

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I understand that, but do ya think you can convince the Jews and their Rabbis of today of that?

Mal 3:1
Behold! I will send 7971 My messenger 4397, and he shall prepare 6437 the way 1870 before 6440 Me:
and the Lord 113, whom ye seek 1245 , shall suddenly 6597 come 935 to His temple 1964,
even the messenger 4397 of the Covenant 1285, whom ye delight 2655 in:
behold! He shall come! 935 , saith 559 YAHWEH 3068 of hosts 6635.










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Rev Randy said:

I'm glad that's been brought up. Why did God find it proper for babies to be circumcised? Should He not have waited until they believed and understood?

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You guys know in your heart that one must first believe, just admit infant baptism is not what was commanded and lets move on brother.