Infant baptism

Raindog · May 28, 2004

My Father, a Lutheran pastor has been saying for years that the Baptists should give up the name and go with Decisionalists or something because to them Baptism is just a symbolic decision one makes that has absoultly nothing to do with salavation. Although oddly they do focus on a voluntary, non-required action a lot. I think it's because the Baptists love being the center of attention, and to that end will be baptised three or six times in their lives.

Anyway Baptisim is a sacrament, and a nesscary one at that. If you don't want your kids baptised, fine, but what if your child decides never to be baptised. I guess that wouldn't bother you too much because all it is an outword act symbolic of an inner devotion.

Basically I don't understand this question. If it comes from someone who doesn't believe in infant baptism what do you care about churches who do?

Symes · Jun 1, 2004

Raindog said:
My Father, a Lutheran pastor has been saying for years that the Baptists should give up the name and go with Decisionalists or something because to them Baptism is just a symbolic decision one makes that has absoultly nothing to do with salavation. Although oddly they do focus on a voluntary, non-required action a lot. I think it's because the Baptists love being the center of attention, and to that end will be baptised three or six times in their lives.

Anyway Baptisim is a sacrament, and a nesscary one at that. If you don't want your kids baptised, fine, but what if your child decides never to be baptised. I guess that wouldn't bother you too much because all it is an outword act symbolic of an inner devotion.

Basically I don't understand this question. If it comes from someone who doesn't believe in infant baptism what do you care about churches who do?

The main problem with infant baptism is that the infant has no idea of what is taking place.

Under those conditions the baptism is really of no value.

A person must be able to choose if he/she wants to be baptised. Infants cannot do that.

Oblio · Jun 1, 2004

The main problem with infant baptism is that the infant has no idea of what is taking place.

Under those conditions the baptism is really of no value.

A person must be able to choose if he/she wants to be baptised. Infants cannot do that.

This is only a problem for those that deny that God can work through His physical creation to bestow Grace upon His children.

Symes · Jun 1, 2004

Oblio said:
This is only a problem for those that deny that God can work through His physical creation to bestow Grace upon His children.

I do not agree with the above quote at all. I have not seen one verse to support "infant baptism"

When I see one, then I will support it.

katherine2001 · Jun 1, 2004

What about when the scriptures talk about entire families being baptized? Did none of them have infants or very small children?

Oblio · Jun 1, 2004

Symes said:
I do not agree with the above quote at all. I have not seen one verse to support "infant baptism"

When I see one, then I will support it.

You disagree that God can work through His physical creation ?

JVAC · Jun 1, 2004

inquisitive725 said:
But surely no one thinks they could go to hell, right?

I don't want to step on any toes with this thread. I'm just trying to find a new church and I don't believe in infant baptism. Honestly though, I think I will have some issues with every church, so I'm trying to see if I can go to this one I like, without being pressured to have my child baptized. But I won't feel good about it if they believe that strongly that it is necessary for his salvation.
Thanks, and my apologies if this offends anyone!

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I saw this and wanted to reply:

For your first question, I think it was St. Thomas Aquinas who said, "There is no more sinful a creature than an infant". I agree, that we are in a world of sin, and every child is concieved with sin, if they were sinless then they wouldn't die, for the wages of sin is death. They don't hit a magical age and start sinning, it is inherrant in their nature. I do say that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and the Triune God. I do say that to think a child is saved because of their perseived 'innocence' or 'lack of reason' is foolhardy. Baptism is God claiming a soul, not a soul claiming God. I think Baptism and Baptismal Grace should be given to all infants and that they all should have an oportunity to hear the good news. Yet sin torments this world and it won't happen, I leave you with Mark 16:16 "All who believe and are baptized will enter eternal life, all who do not believe will be condemned".

-James

JVAC · Jun 1, 2004

Symes said:
The main problem with infant baptism is that the infant has no idea of what is taking place.

Under those conditions the baptism is really of no value.

A person must be able to choose if he/she wants to be baptised. Infants cannot do that.

A person must choose? When was that a requirement, I don't remember Jesus saying, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations and when and if they choose you should baptize them in the name...". Have you guys talked about the "households" that were baptized in Acts and the epistles? Then of course I guess you don't accept tradition that has, St. Polycarp being baptized as an Infant, and St. John, son of Zebedee, the beloved disciple, not having him rebaptized.

-James

Symes · Jun 1, 2004

JVAC said:
A person must choose? When was that a requirement, I don't remember Jesus saying, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations and when and if they choose you should baptize them in the name...". Have you guys talked about the "households" that were baptized in Acts and the epistles? Then of course I guess you don't accept tradition that has, St. Polycarp being baptized as an Infant, and St. John, son of Zebedee, the beloved disciple, not having him rebaptized.

-James

Are you saying a person does not have choice as to whether they want to follow Jesus or not?

Households of believing adults were baptized. It does not say one word that the infants were baptized.

Jesus never baptized infants nor did John.

As for Polycarp I would need to have some better evidence that you just saying he was baptized as an infant.

Symes · Jun 1, 2004

Matthew 28:19.20

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

This command from Jesus rules out infants.

Adults are taught to observe, this hardly fits into how infants respond.

Oblio · Jun 1, 2004

Households of believing adults were baptized.

Scripture says households, nowhere does it limit the members of those households to adults. Please show us in the Bible where houshold is limited to adults only ? In 1st century Palestine, with huge infant mortality rates and the premium on children to bring forth the next generation and to provide labor for the family and the lack of reliable contraceptives, the odds are there would be infants in most families of reproductive age. In addition if this is such an important issue, would not the Holy Scriptures be clear, seeing as Scripture is all you need for sound doctrine ? Where is a single admonishment against infant Baptism in Scripture ?

katherine2001 · Jun 1, 2004

Yes, please quote the scriptures showing that only the adults in the households were baptized. I am interested in seeing those verses.

Even in the Covenant of the Old Testament, babies were part of the Covenant. That is why males were circumcised at 8 days old. God loves children, why would He not bring them under His protection as babies, especially when children are probably more defenseless against the wiles of Satan? Christ told all of us to be like children in their ability to believe and trust. Why would He not allow them to be part of His Church and receive the sacraments from the time they are babies?

Lotar · Jun 1, 2004

Symes said:
Are you saying a person does not have choice as to whether they want to follow Jesus or not?

Are you a Christian because you first chose God, or because He first chose you?

Households of believing adults were baptized. It does not say one word that the infants were baptized.

Scripture says households, and never mentions the age of anyone, adult or child. Though, it has always been believed that those households did contain children.

Jesus never baptized infants nor did John.

Jesus never baptized anyone. Just because there are no specific accounts of John baptizing infants does not mean that he did not.

As for Polycarp I would need to have some better evidence that you just saying he was baptized as an infant.

Read "The Martyrdom of St Polycarp"

Celticflower · Jun 2, 2004

Symes said:
Matthew 28:19.20

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

This command from Jesus rules out infants.

Adults are taught to observe, this hardly fits into how infants respond.

Since infants are basically learning from day one how can you say this? They may not understand words or sermons, but they can learn from what goes on around them and the way people react to them. If a child is baptized as an infant and raised in the church is this not following the command you quoted?

Celtie

JVAC · Jun 2, 2004

Wow, I come to answer a post, but I find it has already been answered, super awesomely by an uber-cool person. Nice work!

-James

Symes · Jun 2, 2004

Celticflower said:
Since infants are basically learning from day one how can you say this? They may not understand words or sermons, but they can learn from what goes on around them and the way people react to them. If a child is baptized as an infant and raised in the church is this not following the command you quoted?

Celtie

Although what you say about infants is right it has nothing to do with the baptism of infants. It does not mean infants can be therofore baptised.

Let me again quote from God's Word in Matthew

"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

If we look at how John and Jesus baptised we would see how baptisms should take place. Jesus was not baptised as an infant.

Matthew 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Jesus talks about the baptism that he baptized with. This was NOT a sprinkling, it was full immersion.

We see know how John baptized, it was full immersion.

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Baptism has to do with "repentance", that is a turning away from ones past life of sin and going forward in faith. It is a choice. An infant CANNOT do this.

Symes · Jun 2, 2004

John 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore ° am I come baptizing with water.

John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

It says there was "much water there"

Matthew 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

It was in the Jordan River that John was baptizing in. Notice it says here that sins were confessed, other places it talks of repentance.

Can you imagine infants going to the Jordan and being baptized?

I can't and I doubt if anyone else can either.

Celticflower · Jun 2, 2004

I am always amazed that baptism--its timing, form, amount of water used etc.- is always such a bone of contention.
If you do not believe infant baptism is correct, then by all means, do not baptise your children.
If I feel that an infant does benefit from baptism, then please, let me continue to baptise my children.
Since baptism does not save you, it brings you under the new covenant established by Christ, I personally do not see how the where, when, why or how it was done matters. What matters is that it was done and that the individual takes it to heart-either through their growth spiritually and physically or spiritually only.

You can quote scripture all day long, but nowhere will you find an age listed for determining a person's ability to be baptised. And since you cannot know what is in the mind of a non-verbal child, you are assuming they do not want to be baptised. There was a time when babies were thought to be closer to the angels than to mortals, the change coming when they learned to talk and began then to forget about heavenly things.

But each PARENT should make the decision about their own children based on their own beliefs and following the leading of the Spirit.

Oblio · Jun 2, 2004

Can you imagine infants going to the Jordan and being baptized?

I can't and I doubt if anyone else can either.

Not that it really matters, but why not. I've been there, I saw nothing to preclude an infant Baptism. I can certainly imagine it, and my guess would be that it happens there often. In that part of the world, infant Baptism is common among Christians.

Lotar · Jun 2, 2004

But Baptism does save you.

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