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Infant Baptism - Is It Wrong?

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GreenEyedLady

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arunma said:
Now, some infant baptizers compare baptism to circumcision. They claim that baptism is the sign of God's covenant with the church, and just as Abraham's children were circumcized, so too should our infants be baptized. But there's a problem: one must be a believer in order to be a part of the church. In other words, the "membership requirements" for the true Israel of God (the church) are somewhat different than for physical Israel. In the days of the Old Covenant, anyone who was born to Israelite parents was a child of Israel, a Jew, and an heir to the promise to Abraham. Such people were bound to the Sinai Covenant, regardless of what they believed. But the New Covenant in Christ's blood depends on faith, rather than on works of the Law. Thus, faith in Christ is required for one to be a child of Abraham, and a part of the true Israel (that is, the church). A baptized infant who grows up to be a godless atheist is not a child of Abraham, but a child of the devil. Yet the sinner on the cross, who was never baptized, became a child of Abraham by faith in Christ. Thus, if you happen to believe that baptism is like circumcision, then the logical conclusion of that belief is that the ordinance should only be given to those who are capable of having faith in Christ.

Very good!
I also want to add that there are places in scriptures where people were given the Holy Ghost BEFORE Baptism, proving salvation BEFORE baptism.

Ac 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Ac 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Ac 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

They had recieved the Holy Spirit before baptism. This is the whole point of the thread right? I mean, the whole point of even discussing this infant baptism theology always boils down to either salvation BEFORE baptism or AFTER baptism. There are plenty of scriptures proving salvation before baptism, a LOT more than these far reaches for infant baptism.

GEL
 
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Alchemist

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Hi guys,

I am not a Baptist, so I won't say much - this is you guys' forum, not mine, and I respect that :).

I'm just posting because I am slightly concerned at the attitude expressed by a few posters, in reply to others posting here. I know it is the wish of the moderators that no debates take place inside the Congregational sections of CF, and I can understand why; it is nice to have a forum where one can fellowship with other believers without their doctrine and practises being harshly criticised by non-believers or members from other denominations. However, I think that this post was, in its very nature, was bound to attract attention (as it has done), and I do feel sorry for those in this forum who have posted their own opinions, which they are then unable to defend under fear of administrative action.

As such, I would ask that posters here be hospitable towards those with other views, and try not to revert to unnecessary flaming or personal attacks. I know that "believer's baptism" is a very important tenet of Baptist doctrine, and there is no doubting that it is Biblical. But other denominations do practise infant baptism to those born to baptised parents; they quote both Biblical and historical reasons for doing so, and though you may disagree, I humbly ask that members refrain from making posts which misrepresent these people. Yes, members of the Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Methodist, and Orthodox churches, amongst others, do practise the baptism of infants, but they certainly do not (as one poster claimed) believe that one is automatically "saved" because of their baptism. The Bible makes it clear that is repentance of our sins and faith in Christ which lead to our salvation, not the act of baptism of itself, and I do know of not one denomination that denies this fact! :)

Secondly, I would remind posters here that there is more than one interpretation of the Bible, and that infant baptism truly is anti-Biblical, as some here would suggest, is far from a closed issue. Certainly, the verses believed to suggest infant baptism may be vague, and there are alternative interpretations. But there is nothing specific in the Bible which would suggest that infants are any less receptive to the power of God than us "adults". Condoners of infant baptism would in fact suggest the contrary is true, often referring to the Gospel of Mark, where a group of parents send their small children to have Christ touch them, to be blessed. Christ's apostles rebuke the parents, perceiving the children, in their youth, to be ignorant and unworthy to be blessed by Jesus; but Christ in turn rebukesthe apostles, saying, "Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not". Whilst indeed, this verse too (like all in the Bible) is open to interpretation, the subject of infant baptism is far from as clear-cut as some posters here imply.

As such, I think any honest and open discussion of this topic should take place in an open forum, if indeed posters who reject infant baptism wish to debate posts made by those who support the practise. I know that this is a Baptist forum, and you have the right to post what you wish. But I do find it a bit unfair making rebuttals of others' posts, when they are unable to reply - especially if the rebuttal in question misrepresented the actual beliefs of the poster (which has happened in this thread :().

God bless you all; may He guide you in your journey with Him. :crosseo::thumbsup:

Peace,
Nick
 
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GreenEyedLady

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Alchemist said:
Hi guys,

I am not a Baptist, so I won't say much - this is you guys' forum, not mine, and I respect that :).

Then you should not be debating or telling us how to talk about this in here among us.



Yes, members of the Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Methodist, and Orthodox churches, amongst others, do practise the baptism of infants, but they certainly do not (as one poster claimed) believe that one is automatically "saved" because of their baptism. The Bible makes it clear that is repentance of our sins and faith in Christ which lead to our salvation, not the act of baptism of itself, and I do know of not one denomination that denies this fact!



It is CLEAR in many doctrinal statments of other demominations that children MUST be baptized to remove original sin. If there is no removal of orginal sin, the childs soul is in jeapordy if the child dies.
Many many many people from all the demonimations you listed have told me, they are going to heaven BECAUSE of thier baptism.
Please allow us to discuss this topic in our own home. We have our home and you have yours. You know the rules, please quit trying to have this thread removed by breaking the rules.
Thank you
GEL
 
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Flynmonkie

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kyzar said:
Hi There,
Just a few quick questions to you all with an opinion out there...
1. Do you think Infant Baptism is wrong No depending on why your doing it and your intent.

(eg. Evil Not nessasarly

and Totally Unbiblical) Yes.

2. Do you think that Baptising your infant will save him/her?

No Baptism saves NO one. No amount of water will change Gods mind! ;) Gods Grace alone saves. Christs Blood saves. We can do NOTHING to obtain salvation, it is a gift given to us by Christs blood.

3. Do you think that Baptising your infant will hinder his/her salvation (eg. later, if they come to a believing faith)?

Absolutly not, however teaching this saves is wrong and CAN hinder a healthy walk with God.
IMVHO
Some people view this to be a "presentation" to the church of sorts of their child. And some wrongfully believe that it will save. Others believe it will "lay the groundwork" or even some think it will bring good favor from God. None of this I find to be biblical. Can it be harmful? Depends on how you look at it?!

It is really simple. Baptism does not save. There is NOTHING we can do to work our way or earn our way to salvation. Children are protected already until the age of knowing and none of us can really gage when that occours. That is between the believer and God. It is very important that we do teach starting at a young age because we do not know a timeline for everyone.
 
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Flynmonkie

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Alchemist said:
I'm just posting because I am slightly concerned at the attitude expressed by a few posters, in reply to others posting here. I know it is the wish of the moderators that no debates take place inside the Congregational sections of CF, and I can understand why; it is nice to have a forum where one can fellowship with other believers without their doctrine and practises being harshly criticised by non-believers or members from other denominations. However, I think that this post was, in its very nature, was bound to attract attention (as it has done), and I do feel sorry for those in this forum who have posted their own opinions, which they are then unable to defend under fear of administrative action.

<snip>
As such, I think any honest and open discussion of this topic should take place in an open forum, if indeed posters who reject infant baptism wish to debate posts made by those who support the practise. I know that this is a Baptist forum, and you have the right to post what you wish. But I do find it a bit unfair making rebuttals of others' posts, when they are unable to reply - especially if the rebuttal in question misrepresented the actual beliefs of the poster (which has happened in this thread :().

:wave: I agree and I think many others do too, but we need a place where we can be amongst those whom do understand where we come from. What we believe and why. Nothing will be solved all the time by "other" denominations correcting ours in our own place to fellowship and discuss. An open forum is nice and there are many threads, however this is our forum, for us to discuss amongst our own. Hopefully it will not become a breeding ground of opinion and false accusations. :prayer:

But there is nothing specific in the Bible which would suggest that infants are any less receptive to the power of God than us "adults". Condoners of infant baptism would in fact suggest the contrary is true, often referring to the Gospel of Mark, where a group of parents send their small children to have Christ touch them, to be blessed.

Of course we should not forbid children to go to Christ. However, this took place before christs death. His blood is sufficent to cover all sins....past present and future. IOW, we no longer need to "touch" him. He also says we should ALL be as children when we come to him! IMVHO :)
 
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Alchemist

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GreenEyedLady said:
Then you should not be debating or telling us how to talk about this in here among us... please allow us to discuss this topic in our own home. We have our home and you have yours. You know the rules, please quit trying to have this thread removed by breaking the rules.

Hi GreenEyedLady,

It is not my intention to have this thread closed. You do have your home, and like I say, I do not want to intrude. I just ask that we all respect each other, and that we all make an honest attempt not to misrepresent the beliefs of anyone else, especially in a closed forum where they are unable to defend themselves. If you find this request offensive, I sincerely apologise.

God bless,
Nick
 
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Diane_Windsor

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Alchemist said:
I'm just posting because I am slightly concerned at the attitude expressed by a few posters, in reply to others posting here. I know it is the wish of the moderators that no debates take place inside the Congregational sections of CF, and I can understand why; it is nice to have a forum where one can fellowship with other believers without their doctrine and practises being harshly criticised by non-believers or members from other denominations. However, I think that this post was, in its very nature, was bound to attract attention (as it has done), and I do feel sorry for those in this forum who have posted their own opinions, which they are then unable to defend under fear of administrative action.

As such, I would ask that posters here be hospitable towards those with other views, and try not to revert to unnecessary flaming or personal attacks. I know that "believer's baptism" is a very important tenet of Baptist doctrine, and there is no doubting that it is Biblical. But other denominations do practise infant baptism to those born to baptised parents; they quote both Biblical and historical reasons for doing so, and though you may disagree, I humbly ask that members refrain from making posts which misrepresent these people. Yes, members of the Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Methodist, and Orthodox churches, amongst others, do practise the baptism of infants, but they certainly do not (as one poster claimed) believe that one is automatically "saved" because of their baptism. The Bible makes it clear that is repentance of our sins and faith in Christ which lead to our salvation, not the act of baptism of itself, and I do know of not one denomination that denies this fact! :)

Secondly, I would remind posters here that there is more than one interpretation of the Bible, and that infant baptism truly is anti-Biblical, as some here would suggest, is far from a closed issue. Certainly, the verses believed to suggest infant baptism may be vague, and there are alternative interpretations. But there is nothing specific in the Bible which would suggest that infants are any less receptive to the power of God than us "adults". Condoners of infant baptism would in fact suggest the contrary is true, often referring to the Gospel of Mark, where a group of parents send their small children to have Christ touch them, to be blessed. Christ's apostles rebuke the parents, perceiving the children, in their youth, to be ignorant and unworthy to be blessed by Jesus; but Christ in turn rebukesthe apostles, saying, "Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not". Whilst indeed, this verse too (like all in the Bible) is open to interpretation, the subject of infant baptism is far from as clear-cut as some posters here imply.

As such, I think any honest and open discussion of this topic should take place in an open forum, if indeed posters who reject infant baptism wish to debate posts made by those who support the practise. I know that this is a Baptist forum, and you have the right to post what you wish. But I do find it a bit unfair making rebuttals of others' posts, when they are unable to reply - especially if the rebuttal in question misrepresented the actual beliefs of the poster (which has happened in this thread :().

God bless you all; may He guide you in your journey with Him.

Peace,
Nick

:thumbsup: Great post Nick! All Christians believe that we are saved solely by the Grace of God as Paul tells the Ephesians. Christians differ on whether or not baptism is a channel for that grace.

Diane
:wave:
 
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SonOfThunder

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It was custom for a parent to present a child to the temple after the custom of the law,
LUK 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
LUK 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
LUK 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
LUK 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
LUK 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
LUK 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
LUK 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
LUK 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
LUK 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
LUK 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
LUK 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
LUK 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
LUK 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.


The customs of man sometimes get mixed up as to what is right and what is wrong. If God wanted us to Baptise a child it would be clear in the Bible.

Is presenting a child before the church wrong? is the presentation of this child and the parents declaring before friends and family and thir God that they will raise this child in a Godly household wrong? I think not.


James
 
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Ginny

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Alchemist said:
Hi GreenEyedLady,

It is not my intention to have this thread closed. You do have your home, and like I say, I do not want to intrude. I just ask that we all respect each other, and that we all make an honest attempt not to misrepresent the beliefs of anyone else, especially in a closed forum where they are unable to defend themselves. If you find this request offensive, I sincerely apologise.

God bless,
Nick

Alchemist, thanks for your concern. I think what GEL was trying to say is that this is a Baptists forum...we have already had a certified moderator telling us to be respectful ;)

I am not sure what type of response the OP was searching for in regards to a denominational answer...but he is basically getting a Baptist answer since he asked in a Baptist forum. It was stated that "SBC expects me to believe that infants were not a part of households during NT times."

I feel that this comment could lure the OP into thinking that a particular denomination, such as Baptist, expects people to believe anything and everything they wish. This does not represent all churches within the SBC or Baptist faith.

I feel if the OP wants a MEDLEY of answers then perhaps it should be posted in a forum in which he/she will receive those; however, the thread was posted here.
 
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novcncy

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Diane_Windsor said:
Christians differ on whether or not baptism is a channel for that grace.

That's an interesting way of putting it. So to paraphrase, God's grace allows us to do something, it establishes a hoop we have to jump through, in order to secure our place in Heaven? Interesting.

I did want to address the whole "infants in the household" thing. I don't particularly know the custom of the day, I know sometimes, women didn't even count as members of society, so perhaps that's the meaning of "household", men AND women. At any rate, if we put it in modern terms, if I said "Everyone in my family voted" it would be inferred that what I really meant was that everyone over eighteen voted, because those who are too young, are not allowed. It is clear from the cultural context that I am not claiming that my two year old daughter voted. It would require quite a convincing act to make a judge believe that I was claiming that every literal human being in my family voted. It's a creative attempt at best, to try to validate infant baptism with three "household" statements. It sort of ludicrous to mandate ANY interpretation of the "household" phrase include infants, and even more so to try make that sagging inference the foundation of an attack against the SBC. I'm not SBC, and I have my issues with them, but...this ain't one of 'em.

Also, just to make things clear regarding Jesus telling the disciples not to forbid the children from coming to Jesus. These children were NOT infants. Jesus said "Suffer (permit or allow, for you non-KJV'ers) the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." There is a big difference between baptizing a child believer, even as young as four or five, who realizes that they are a sinner and accept that Jesus is the solution to their sin and its eternal consequences, and baptizing an infant, who cannot realize anything. It's quite a stretch to try to make these two different concepts the same thing.
 
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Iollain

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I've got a funny thought here.

Lets say that we have a family of athiests, later in life the parents turn Christian and the father becomes a minister, two of the three children get saved and baptised, and the oldest one in his 20's so far has not. The denomination they are in does infant baptism.

Not picture this, the father and the unsaved son are at the lake playing around in the water and dunking each other (i hate when people do this but some people think it is grand fun for some reason), and one time while the father puts the son under the water, he takes his chance to baptise his son in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Is this baptism any different than an infant baptism and why?
 
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WarriorAngel

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GreenEyedLady said:
This is a FAR stretch of context! You used the word surmise. You are guessing at it, and that is is. A Guess, it might make sense but just because something makes sense does NOT mean it is TRUTH!

surmise [Show phonetics]
verb [T] FORMAL
to guess something, without having much or any proof:
[+ (that)] The police surmise (that) the robbers have fled the country.

There is HARDLY enough biblical evidence in these verses posted to created a theological doctrine off of it. It is a man made tradition, not a biblical one.

You are true at saying that I can only surmise.
But there are two other things we must consider.

Scripture does not say the Apsotles refused infant baptism in any household, and it is also written that baptism is equated to circumcism.

I know of no one who holds off circumcism until they are able to make that choice.
Whereas parents make that choice.
AS this is true, then an infant may be baptised by the parental consent. Since they are equated in the same light, I would think both are important decisions made by parents.

Consider the fact that we don't circumsize, would it not be painful later at age 13?
And is it not true then, if that is physical pain, would not baptising early on be painful to the child?
We do not know, but it could hinder their growth to God in spirituality.
I know this much, my husbands parents did not believe in infant baptism, and so he never got baptised. Now at his age, he is still raking it over the coals. This has become his choice, and not one he feels compelled to do anything about.
So, can this be a majority rather than a minority of occasions?
Has he hope if he died tomorrow?
Consider the words of the scripture.

Why is baptism the same as circumcism then?
 
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WarriorAngel

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The problems I face are ...he doesn't see the importance since his parents did not feel the need to baptise him, so he doesnt press any importance on it.

And their influences from childhood govern his thots more than I.

Peace!
 
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Ginny

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Iollain said:
Lets say that we have a family of athiests, later in life the parents turn Christian and the father becomes a minister, two of the three children get saved and baptised, and the oldest one in his 20's so far has not. The denomination they are in does infant baptism.

Not picture this, the father and the unsaved son are at the lake playing around in the water and dunking each other (i hate when people do this but some people think it is grand fun for some reason), and one time while the father puts the son under the water, he takes his chance to baptise his son in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Is this baptism any different than an infant baptism and why?

I do not feel this baptism is any different. In the eyes of God, neither infant nor boy (age 20) has accepted Jesus.... basically the infant has done the same as the 20 year old male-- got dunked- literally.

If you are making the point I think you are trying to make, then it is a very good analogy.

Some have made a point to say this is a "stepping stone" in their Christian walk to baptize an infant. If the same exact thing occurs to an adult, it kinda changes the picture now, doesn't it?

Reps deserved, Iollain. Thank you for that analogy.:thumbsup:
 
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Diane_Windsor

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Ginny said:
It was stated that "SBC expects me to believe that infants were not a part of households during NT times." I feel that this comment could lure the OP into thinking that a particular denomination, such as Baptist, expects people to believe anything and everything they wish. This does not represent all churches within the SBC or Baptist faith.

And the SBC doesn't expect me to believe that there were no infants in households? By their interpretation of Scripture they imply that they believe that there were no infants in households. I'm not sure where you get the idea that anybody would think that the SBC expects members to agree with everything it teaches. The SBC is not the RCC.


I feel if the OP wants a MEDLEY of answers then perhaps it should be posted in a forum in which he/she will receive those; however, the thread was posted here.

So Baptists can't have different opinions on baptism? I don't know about other baptist groups, but the SBC does not have doctrinal requirements for its members. You are free to disagree with the Baptist Faith and Message.

novcncy said:
It sort of ludicrous to mandate ANY interpretation of the "household" phrase include infants, and even more so to try make that sagging inference the foundation of an attack against the SBC.

Where did I attack the SBC? I attacked a doctrinal statement of the SBC, just as other Baptists attack the doctrines of the RCC.

novcncy said:
Also, just to make things clear regarding the parents who sent their children to Jesus. These children were NOT infants . . .

And infants aren't children?

Diane
:)
 
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