Indulgences

[Valletta]

so what makes an indulgence specifically an indulgence, and where is that particular distinction in the quote?

I don't know if you believe in the temporal effects of sin or not as per the quotation. Not everything was formalized in the early Church, but indulgences are usually spoken of as those granted formally by the Church. As per the quotation, you don't buy indulgences, rather, your heart must turn toward God and reject sin.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't know if you believe in the temporal effects of sin or not as per the quotation. Not everything was formalized in the early Church, but indulgences are usually spoken of as those granted formally by the Church. As per the quotation, you don't buy indulgences, rather, your heart must turn toward God and reject sin.

I do believe in temporal effects, but that doesn’t really answer my question.

and while everything wasn’t as polished in the early Church, there also wasn’t any new dogma.

 

[Valletta]

I do believe in temporal effects, but that doesn’t really answer my question.

and while everything wasn’t as polished in the early Church, there also wasn’t any new dogma.

You are correct that the doctrine on indulgences was not, as was doctrine on many things, fully written down/established. But Catholics believe in praying for the dead, the prayers are to reduce the temporal effects of sin. The final judgment, heaven or hell, is made by Jesus. It is not a leap that if individual prayers can do this certainly the Church as a whole, headed by Jesus, can make such a reduction. If nothing else perhaps you would at least agree that if one individual praying can have an effect many in the Church praying can also.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You are correct that the doctrine on indulgences was not, as was doctrine on many things, fully written down/established. But Catholics believe in praying for the dead, the prayers are to reduce the temporal effects of sin. The final judgment, heaven or hell, is made by Jesus. It is not a leap that if individual prayers can do this certainly the Church as a whole, headed by Jesus, can make such a reduction. If nothing else perhaps you would at least agree that if one individual praying can have an effect many in the Church praying can also.

but again, that doesn’t answer the question. what makes an indulgence, specifically an indulgence?

 

[Valletta]

but again, that doesn’t answer the question. what makes an indulgence, specifically an indulgence?

For indulgences granted by the Church the Church decides and states what must be done for an indulgence. Like the sacrament of reconciliation, a person must have the right disposition.

 

[ArmyMatt]

For indulgences granted by the Church the Church decides and states what must be done for an indulgence. Like the sacrament of reconciliation, a person must have the right disposition.

but that doesn’t answer what they actually are.

 

[Valletta]

but that doesn’t answer what they actually are.

The Catholic Catechism says:
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1471

St. Thomas Aquinas also wrote quite a bit about indulgences:
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Indulgences (Supplementum, Q. 25)

 

[ArmyMatt]

The Catholic Catechism says:
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1471

St. Thomas Aquinas also wrote quite a bit about indulgences:
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Indulgences (Supplementum, Q. 25)

okay, so where is this taught in the early Church? especially the treasury of satisfactions.

 

[Valletta]

okay, so where is this taught in the early Church? especially the treasury of satisfactions.

An early indulgence is mentioned in Proverbs 16:6: “By loving kindness and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil.” The Church has always taught that the Bible is true.
When theologians first used the term "Treasury of satisfactions" I simply don't know, I'll have to see what history is available on that particular term.

 

[ArmyMatt]

An early indulgence is mentioned in Proverbs 16:6: “By loving kindness and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil.” The Church has always taught that the Bible is true.
When theologians first used the term "Treasury of satisfactions" I simply don't know, I'll have to see what history is available on that particular term.

yeah, but we Orthodox follow that verse, but reject indulgences. it strikes me that the treasury of satisfactions is one of the things that makes an indulgence unique.

 

[Not David]

yeah, but we Orthodox follow that verse, but reject indulgences. it strikes me that the treasury of satisfactions is one of the things that makes an indulgence unique.

That sounds like a verse out of context, like when the Roman Catholics tried to argue for Purgatory in 2nd Maccabees

 

[ArmyMatt]

That sounds like a verse out of context, like when the Roman Catholics tried to argue for Purgatory in 2nd Maccabees

probably

 

[ArmyMatt]

That sounds like a verse out of context, like when the Roman Catholics tried to argue for Purgatory in 2nd Maccabees

or that Petrine authority passed to Rome only, and not to any other Church he founded.

 

[RileyG]

indulgences have never been a practice of the Church. plus, Pope JPII brought them back to my knowledge.

[I know this is an Orthodox forum. Only adding my knowledge to this post]

AFAIK, (in the RCC *only*) Indulgences were always part of the Roman Church. Their intensity and use only decreased after Vatican II. (i.e. no longer 300 days (or add any length of time here) worth of an indulgence but only a partial indulgence etc).

 

[RileyG]

I do believe in temporal effects, but that doesn’t really answer my question.

and while everything wasn’t as polished in the early Church, there also wasn’t any new dogma.

Father,
From an Orthodox perspective, what happens to the temporal effects to a soul after death? Does it end at death?

 

[ArmyMatt]

[I know this is an Orthodox forum. Only adding my knowledge to this post]

AFAIK, (in the RCC *only*) Indulgences were always part of the Roman Church. Their intensity and use only decreased after Vatican II. (i.e. no longer 300 days (or add any length of time here) worth of an indulgence but only a partial indulgence etc).

hmm, I heard that Pope JPII brought them back, not just increased their use. but the fact that time was factored out after having been part of the teaching says something.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father,
From an Orthodox perspective, what happens to the temporal effects to a soul after death? Does it end at death?

I think it ends at death (at least as far as we understand) since you are passed the temporarity of this world.

 

[RileyG]

I think it ends at death (at least as far as we understand) since you are passed the temporarity of this world.

ok! Thanks!

 

[RileyG]

hmm, I heard that Pope JPII brought them back, not just increased their use. but the fact that time was factored out after having been part of the teaching says something.

I don't think they increased after his use. Maybe he just applied them more? I could be wrong.

 

[ArmyMatt]

ok! Thanks!

no problem!