Indulgences...

[Reformationist]

They were being abused in the Church and they are no longer abused.

Abused by who? Was the Pope condoning the selling of indulgences?

Theresa asked and so will I, what do you think they are?

Answered that in post #8 and Theresa responded to it.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Abused by who? Was the Pope condoning the selling of indulgences?

He could have been but so? The behavior of a pope does not effect the truth of the teaching nor his gift of infallibility when teaching faith and morals.

Answered that in post #8 and Theresa responded to it.

You cited a definition, what is your understanding of the definition?

 

[Benedicta00]

Do you believe that there were abuses?

I do.

I didn't say they were condoned. I asked if they were condoned. It seems, from my studies, that indulgences carried a much greater weight, and that there were many different kinds, during the time of the building of St. Peter's basilica.

They were being abused as I understand it but there aren't different kinds other than planetary and partial but IIRC, I think that no longer applies.

Does the Papacy condone the selling of indulgences and what is it that leads your church's leadership to endorse such a practice? Is there Scripture that supports it? Is it strictly from the teachings of the church fathers? Where did the teaching come from? Has it ALWAYS been a teaching of the Roman Catholic church?

NO, the pope does not condone selling them for money today and yes it is a teaching of the early Church, and scripture as everything Catholic is.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I see.



So, do you feel that this "Treasury of Merit" or indulgences for that matter is something that is spoken of in the Bible? Also, does the Pope have the power to dispense the merit in the "Treasury of Merit," even to those who are currently in purgatory, thereby granting them early release?

Thanks,
God bless

Don, I referred you to Mattew 16:19 for the authority on the church's power to grant an indulgence. This is where the Pope gets the power, as he is a successor to St Peter.

I see that you have a good definition of Indulgences per post #8, but why do you keep asking about the sale of indulgences?

An indulgence is no longer granted for the giving of alms, although it is under the church's authority to reinstate a grant for that pious act. An Indulgence is only granted to a penetant soul. It is not ever, not was ever granted by the mere exchange of funds.

A person that is granted a plenary indulgence has to remove ALL attachment to sin, both mortal and venial, else the indulgence is only partial. It would be useless to attempt to purchase an indulgence, as such an act would be sinful and void the indulgence one is seeking. Is this understandable?

 

[Toney]

We Catholics believe the Church has a treasury of merit. You don't.

We Catholics believe the Church can dispense that merit in the form of indulgences. You don't.

That there were once abuses by one monk or by one hundred monks is irrelevant. There was a Reformation, as your name suggests.

That there were reforms in the Catholic Church after the Reformation also is irrelevant. We believe tradition informs theology. You don't.

I hope you can respect our traditions as we respect yours.

 

[Benedicta00]

We go by the honest system and the pope does not have power over souls being hellhound, or released from purgatory. That is kind of comical to think he would.

All indulgences are is atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin- not eternal. It is not a get out of purgatory free card. One must be in grace to merit them and if you lie about them and steal them you aren't in grace- so you defeated your purpose.

99% of indulgences are not offered up for the individual but for the souls of their loved ones in purgatory. When we even so much as pick up a crumb from the floor, our act in union with Christ’s act has power to atone for the temporal punishments due to sin.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I see.



So, do you feel that this "Treasury of Merit" or indulgences for that matter is something that is spoken of in the Bible? Also, does the Pope have the power to dispense the merit in the "Treasury of Merit," even to those who are currently in purgatory, thereby granting them early release?

Thanks,
God bless

Of course, you know that we do not limit ourselves to the bible alone, but also honor and respect the oral teaching handed down from the Apostles and transmitted by the Church.

But again, we use the bible as canonized by the Early Church, which includes all the books they declared to be scripture. So we have examples of prayers and alms being given for the dead.

Luther's position was the Pope did not have the power to grant indulgences for the dead. But that was Luther's position, not the Church's. And Luther discarded the scriptures which gave support for actions of those alive affecting the state of those who are dead.

So we have here a discussion that happens on more than one level at once, with side issues that we do not agree on affecting our particular understanding of this issue.

The Pope holds the Keys to the Kingdom of heaven, and as in the Old Testament the one who held the Key of the Kingdom operated with the full authority and jurisdiction of the King as his Vicar, as his Prime Minister, the same is true with the Pope, Peter's Successor.


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Do you believe that there were abuses?

Yes, we know there were abuses. You are familiar with Tetzel aren't you? didn't we already go over this? If not, please forgive me

I didn't say they were condoned. I asked if they were condoned. It seems, from my studies, that indulgences carried a much greater weight, and that there were many different kinds, during the time of the building of St. Peter's basilica.

Selling of indulgences were never condoned by the Church. Some took alms giving to an extreme (Tetzel is a prime example) and, by their method effectively "sold" indulgences. But the Church teaching never instructed them to do so.

Does the Papacy condone the selling of indulgences

Abosultey, 100% NO!!

and what is it that leads your church's leadership to endorse such a practice?

This is what I thought you thought! I think we have to get away from the idea that the Church SELLS indulgences!!

The Church has never sold indulgences . .some people did at the time of Luther, but some people do not make up the Church as a whole or define its teaching.

The Church does not sell indulgences!!

Is there Scripture that supports it? Is it strictly from the teachings of the church fathers?

Again, the Church does not sell indulgences . .

Where did the teaching come from? Has it ALWAYS been a teaching of the Roman Catholic church?

Selling of indulgences has NEVER been a teaching of the Church.

Granting of indulgences has been, but selling, NEVER!


Do you see the difference?



Peace in Him!

 

[PeterPaul]

Edited.

 

[BAChristian]

Word of caution: I have a pretty good feeling what this thread is going to turn into.

Two mods are watching this thread like a hawk. I'm one of them.

And I have absolutely, positively, no problem handing out official warnings for being rude, inciting debate, or masking debate by asking "honest, sincere" questions, of which the answers should already be apparent based on the amount of time a person has been on this board debating about the Catholic faith to begin with...

 

[Reformationist]

He could have been but so? The behavior of a pope does not effect the truth of the teaching nor his gift of infallibility when teaching faith and morals.

Do you feel that your spiritual leader's endorsement of a practice directly related to the Christian faith is of no consequence and has no bearing on infallibility with regard to teachings of faith and morals? I'm only asking Michelle. Please do not be offended.

You cited a definition, what is your understanding of the definition?

I don't understand it. I am not at liberty in this forum to explain why. It would probably offend someone.

 

[PeterPaul]

Then why ask?

 

[Reformationist]

I do.

Okay. Do you believe the Pope abused the teaching of indulgences? I'm not setting you up. I'm just asking.

They were being abused as I understand it but there aren't different kinds other than planetary and partial but IIRC, I think that no longer applies.

What kinds are there now?

NO, the pope does not condone selling them for money today and yes it is a teaching of the early Church, and scripture as everything Catholic is.

Would you mind showing me where indulgences are taught in Scripture. I will not refute you. I just would like to see what verses you believe, or your church teaches, support the practice of indulgences.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Don, I referred you to Mattew 16:19 for the authority on the church's power to grant an indulgence. This is where the Pope gets the power, as he is a successor to St Peter.

Um...sorry but I don't see anything about indulgences or a "Treasury of Merit." Is that somewhere else?

I see that you have a good definition of Indulgences per post #8, but why do you keep asking about the sale of indulgences?

Up until I was just told that indulgences weren't sold I thought they were. Weren't they sold in the 16th century?

An indulgence is no longer granted for the giving of alms, although it is under the church's authority to reinstate a grant for that pious act.

So they don't sell them but they have the authority to?

An Indulgence is only granted to a penetant soul. It is not ever, not was ever granted by the mere exchange of funds.

Okay. If you say so.

A person that is granted a plenary indulgence has to remove ALL attachment to sin, both mortal and venial, else the indulgence is only partial. It would be useless to attempt to purchase an indulgence, as such an act would be sinful and void the indulgence one is seeking. Is this understandable?

I understand what you wrote, yes.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

We Catholics believe the Church has a treasury of merit. You don't.

We Catholics believe the Church can dispense that merit in the form of indulgences. You don't.

That there were once abuses by one monk or by one hundred monks is irrelevant. There was a Reformation, as your name suggests.

That there were reforms in the Catholic Church after the Reformation also is irrelevant. We believe tradition informs theology. You don't.

I hope you can respect our traditions as we respect yours.

Um...okay. Thanks. Just for the record, I'm not disrespecting your traditions. I'm trying to understand them. This is what your fellow Catholic has instructed me to do. Should I have not asked the question?

 

[Reformationist]

We go by the honest system and the pope does not have power over souls being hellhound, or released from purgatory. That is kind of comical to think he would.

I see. I thought that was once taught. Was I mistaken?

All indulgences are is atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin- not eternal. It is not a get out of purgatory free card. One must be in grace to merit them and if you lie about them and steal them you aren't in grace- so you defeated your purpose.

I see.

99% of indulgences are not offered up for the individual but for the souls of their loved ones in purgatory. When we even so much as pick up a crumb from the floor, our act in union with Christ?s act has power to atone for the temporal punishments due to sin.

Umm...I thought you just said that the pope does not have the power to release souls from purgatory. If that is the case why would 99% of the indulgences be offered up for souls in purgatory? What does the indulgence accomplish for the soul in purgatory? Does it lessen their time in purgatory?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Of course, you know that we do not limit ourselves to the bible alone, but also honor and respect the oral teaching handed down from the Apostles and transmitted by the Church.

But again, we use the bible as canonized by the Early Church, which includes all the books they declared to be scripture. So we have examples of prayers and alms being given for the dead.

Luther's position was the Pope did not have the power to grant indulgences for the dead. But that was Luther's position, not the Church's. And Luther discarded the scriptures which gave support for actions of those alive affecting the state of those who are dead.

So we have here a discussion that happens on more than one level at once, with side issues that we do not agree on affecting our particular understanding of this issue.

The Pope holds the Keys to the Kingdom of heaven, and as in the Old Testament the one who held the Key of the Kingdom operated with the full authority and jurisdiction of the King as his Vicar, as his Prime Minister, the same is true with the Pope, Peter's Successor.


Peace in Him!

I see. Thank you.

God bless

 

[Toney]

Would you mind showing me where indulgences are taught in Scripture. I will not refute you. I just would like to see what verses you believe, or your church teaches, support the practice of indulgences.

The Catholic and Protestant bibles differ. So citing scripture from a Catholic Bible holds little value for you. Read the book of Tobit, if you are sincere in your quest for knowledge as I am certain you must be.

As has been stated, Catholics believe tradition to be a legitimate source of theology. You do not agree with that either.

Actually, we just cannot defend our practice regarding indulgences to your satisfaction. If we could, you would have had little to protest and nothing to reform.

Go in peace.

 

[Reformationist]

Yes, we know there were abuses. You are familiar with Tetzel aren't you?

Yes.

didn't we already go over this? If not, please forgive me

That must have been someone else.

Selling of indulgences were never condoned by the Church. Some took alms giving to an extreme (Tetzel is a prime example) and, by their method effectively "sold" indulgences. But the Church teaching never instructed them to do so.

Do you mean his selling was effective or that the indulgences were effective?

Abosultey, 100% NO!!

Did they ever, that you know of?

This is what I thought you thought! I think we have to get away from the idea that the Church SELLS indulgences!!

The Church has never sold indulgences . .some people did at the time of Luther, but some people do not make up the Church as a whole or define its teaching.

The Church does not sell indulgences!!

I see. Well, just for the record, and I don't mean this in a debating way, Luther believed the Pope never condoned the sale of indulgences either.

Again, the Church does not sell indulgences . .

I see.

Selling of indulgences has NEVER been a teaching of the Church.

Granting of indulgences has been, but selling, NEVER!

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

Do you see the difference?

Absolutely. So your church did give indulgences though right? What was accomplished by these indulgences?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Word of caution: I have a pretty good feeling what this thread is going to turn into.

Two mods are watching this thread like a hawk. I'm one of them.

And I have absolutely, positively, no problem handing out official warnings for being rude, inciting debate, or masking debate by asking "honest, sincere" questions, of which the answers should already be apparent based on the amount of time a person has been on this board debating about the Catholic faith to begin with...

Are you talking about me? Have I been rude, incited debate, or masked debate by asking "honest, sincere" questions?

You really sound like you're calling my honesty into question because you feel I should know something that I don't. Just for the record, in all the time that I'VE been a member of this MB I have, to my knowledge, only participated in one thread on indulgences and that was early on in my membership.

However, as you don't outright say it's me you're talking about I should give you the benefit of the doubt and ask, "Are you referring to me in that post?"

So, is it?