Indulgences? I Don't Get It...

[ALoveDivine]

I'm really having a hard time wrapping my mind around "indulgences". The whole concept seems predicated on this notion of purgatory as some kind of system of vindictive punishment. If I'm not mistaken, indulgences are given by the church to remit "temporal punishment" due to sin. Right? Well is this "punishment" corrective or vindictive?

See, I always thought purgatory was a purification of the soul of those in grace, a kind of purifying transit to glory. If this is so, what is the point of indulgences at all? Isn't that kind of purification of the soul something good and necessary? Why endeavor to remit it at all? Or does the Church really believe that purgatory is some kind of temporal vindictive punishment? Do we really believe God punishes people, in a vindictive sense, even those who are on their way to heaven eventually? This seems....wrong, quite frankly.

Perhaps I am confused. Can someone explain this notion of indulgences and its relation to purgatory for me? Because honestly it sounds absurd.

 

[Rhamiel]

you make a lot of good points here

I do not think it is wrong to see it as both corrective and vindictive?

indulgences are a sign of the mercy of God and the authority of the Church
the Church sets little things, a set of prayers, a pilgrimage, reading the bible for a half hour
things that are simple, but also good for the soul
and in doing these things, you are given graces that are beyond what is deserved

 

[ALoveDivine]

I do not think it is wrong to see it as both corrective and vindictive?

That would be a contradiction, no? Further, if purgatory is for those who die in the grace and friendship of God, how does it make sense for God to vengefully inflict suffering on us?

the Church sets little things, a set of prayers, a pilgrimage, reading the bible for a half hour
things that are simple, but also good for the soul

Awesome. I wish the church would just leave it at that.

and in doing these things, you are given graces that are beyond what is deserved

But that's not it, is it? Allegedly these things get you out of purgatory, or reduce your time there. Almost as if purgatory is some dungeon you are thrown in because God is angry with you. Is that really still how the Church views Purgatory, as opposed to a purification process?

And if we agree that Purgatory is purifying, why would we fear it or want to remit our time in that transitory state? I know I need a lot of purifying, and I'd hope God would purify me and make me more and more holy even after my death.

 

[Rhamiel]

when you make a little kid stand in the corner
that is a form of punishment
but it also gives the child time to reflect on what they did
helps to teach discipline

as such
punishment and healing are not always contradictory?

purgatory is purification
but that does not mean it is pleasant
a person addicted to drugs going though detox is getting healed, but he suffers from withdrawal symptoms that are not fun at all
we are addicted to sin, to the discorded desires
we have bent ourselves out of shape with sin..... getting put back into shape might not be pleasant (think of a dislocated shoulder getting shoved back into place)

 

[ALoveDivine]

That is a great way to think about it, thanks. I especially like your analogy regarding drug addiction and detox, that's a great way to think about sin and sanctification.

However, I still have a problem with indulgences. If we NEED this kind of purification, like a drug addict needs detox/rehab, then why does the church issue indulgences at all? I get that purification may not be pleasant, just like detoxing is not, but just as detoxing is necessary, isn't purgatory necessary? So how can the church get us "time off" from this very purification we need?

 

[Colin]

I'm really having a hard time wrapping my mind around "indulgences".

I recommend that you read Blessed Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences . It might help . Link below......

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6INDULG.HTM

 

[benedictaoo]

I'll make it simple. Souls in purgatory can't do anything for themselves so they need us to pray , make sacrifices, ECT. The church grants us indulgences to help them.

 

[pdudgeon]

I recommend that you read Blessed Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences . It might help . Link below......

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6INDULG.HTM

bookmarked in my faves. thanks very much for this link!

 

[WarriorAngel]

I'm really having a hard time wrapping my mind around "indulgences". The whole concept seems predicated on this notion of purgatory as some kind of system of vindictive punishment. If I'm not mistaken, indulgences are given by the church to remit "temporal punishment" due to sin. Right? Well is this "punishment" corrective or vindictive?

See, I always thought purgatory was a purification of the soul of those in grace, a kind of purifying transit to glory. If this is so, what is the point of indulgences at all? Isn't that kind of purification of the soul something good and necessary? Why endeavor to remit it at all? Or does the Church really believe that purgatory is some kind of temporal vindictive punishment? Do we really believe God punishes people, in a vindictive sense, even those who are on their way to heaven eventually? This seems....wrong, quite frankly.

Perhaps I am confused. Can someone explain this notion of indulgences and its relation to purgatory for me? Because honestly it sounds absurd.

Indulgences expedite the process so the sufferer can be done with purification.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Here's a good source for the study of this topic: Indulgences
.

 

[ALoveDivine]

This is all very confusing to be honest. Can't say I'm a fan of this line of thinking. The notion of a "treasury" of merits of Christ and the saints being applied to us, like a treasury of cash being used to pay off a debt we owe, just strikes me as contrived and kind of absurd. Perhaps this is just due to my lack of understanding and the church is 100% right. I don't know. I guess I'll have to leave it at that. Is this something I can respectfully disagree with the church about, or does it somehow count as infallible dogma? And if the later, what evidence exists to categorize it as such?

And as an aside, do Byzantine/Eastern Catholics also accept this understanding of indulgences?

I am absolutely in love with the Church and its reinvigoration of my relationship with Christ.....but indulgences and contraception are two huge stumbling blocks for me, and I just can't seem to agree with the church on these issues.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Do you accept the doctrine of Purgatory? Because the doctrine of indulgences only makes sense in relation to that. Before one can understand indulgences they must understand Purgatory.

 

[ALoveDivine]

Do you accept the doctrine of Purgatory?

Yes, if by Purgatory you mean the postmortem spiritual purification of sinners who, being in the grace of God and destined for heaven, must be purged or purified of their remaining sin and darkness. I do not, however, conceive of it as vindictive wrathful punishment that can be satiated by church authorities.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yes, if by Purgatory you mean the postmortem spiritual purification of sinners who, being in the grace of God and destined for heaven, must be purged or purified of their remaining sin and darkness. I do not, however, conceive of it as vindictive wrathful punishment that can be satiated by church authorities.

Pay attention to the underlying meaning in scriptures.
We know the master is mad at the debtor who couldnt forgive his debtor...and beat him up. Right?
So he throws him into jail - til every last dime is paid.
Well, we know he cannot 'make' the money himself nor can he go to the bank and make withdraws as he is in jail.
So he must rely on loved ones to do these things.

In this case - prayer / indulgences is the withdraw from the bank [our prayer is works and anything we give to the Church to help others in need] which the bank is the mercy of God via His suffering.
So in order to pay the debt - he needs his loved ones to assist in the process.
OR he will stay there til time expires.... which maybe a very very long time - or the end of time?

So indulgences are a works - we do as the believers - who want to make payments towards the release by faith we with draw from the Lord's mercy and pay it back thru the Lord's mercy.
As we are nothing without the Passion, death and Resurrection - we must go to Him with our love for the jailed - and make restitution that they cannot.
Indulgences may be used for charity.. ie - tho the sufferer can no longer do acts of charity - it can be done in his name therefore a 'merit' for him thru our love.

 

[mark46]

Do you accept the doctrine of Purgatory? Because the doctrine of indulgences only makes sense in relation to that. Before one can understand indulgences they must understand Purgatory.

Purgatory is an important doctrine of our faith. However, there are many understandings other than the Gospel According To Dante. Many think of Purgatory as the mud room of heaven, where we are purified, taught and prepared before entering heaven.

In any case, the doctrine of indulgences is a different doctrine entirely, and one that has been misused over the centuries. Even now, it seem incomprehensible that saying a certain prayer or going to a certain shrine can be instrumental in the forgiveness of sin. We should recall the Jubilee Year when there were many, many indulgences.

 

[mark46]

I'm really having a hard time wrapping my mind around "indulgences". The whole concept seems predicated on this notion of purgatory as some kind of system of vindictive punishment. If I'm not mistaken, indulgences are given by the church to remit "temporal punishment" due to sin. Right? Well is this "punishment" corrective or vindictive?

See, I always thought purgatory was a purification of the soul of those in grace, a kind of purifying transit to glory. If this is so, what is the point of indulgences at all? Isn't that kind of purification of the soul something good and necessary? Why endeavor to remit it at all? Or does the Church really believe that purgatory is some kind of temporal vindictive punishment? Do we really believe God punishes people, in a vindictive sense, even those who are on their way to heaven eventually? This seems....wrong, quite frankly.

Perhaps I am confused. Can someone explain this notion of indulgences and its relation to purgatory for me? Because honestly it sounds absurd.

I'm really having a hard time wrapping my mind around "indulgences". The whole concept seems predicated on this notion of purgatory as some kind of system of vindictive punishment. If I'm not mistaken, indulgences are given by the church to remit "temporal punishment" due to sin. Right? Well is this "punishment" corrective or vindictive?

See, I always thought purgatory was a purification of the soul of those in grace, a kind of purifying transit to glory. If this is so, what is the point of indulgences at all? Isn't that kind of purification of the soul something good and necessary? Why endeavor to remit it at all? Or does the Church really believe that purgatory is some kind of temporal vindictive punishment? Do we really believe God punishes people, in a vindictive sense, even those who are on their way to heaven eventually? This seems....wrong, quite frankly.

Perhaps I am confused. Can someone explain this notion of indulgences and its relation to purgatory for me? Because honestly it sounds absurd.

Yes, the doctrine of indulgences does seem absurd. As an aside, it was the abuse of indulgences that was the primary cause of the Reformation. One could buy indulgences which assured salvation. In addition, the offices of priest and bishop could be bought.

I agree that if we understand Purgatory as a time of purification and preparation, then tying indulgences to purgatory makes little sense. Why should we want to reduce the time of preparation?

I would note that much of the time indulgences are performed to benefit ourselves. I recall that in the time of Jubilee (2000), there were many indulgences available if we would say certain prayers or visit certain shrines.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6INDULG.HTM

 

[kit]

This is all very confusing to be honest. Can't say I'm a fan of this line of thinking. The notion of a "treasury" of merits of Christ and the saints being applied to us, like a treasury of cash being used to pay off a debt we owe, just strikes me as contrived and kind of absurd. Perhaps this is just due to my lack of understanding and the church is 100% right. I don't know. I guess I'll have to leave it at that. Is this something I can respectfully disagree with the church about, or does it somehow count as infallible dogma? And if the later, what evidence exists to categorize it as such?

And as an aside, do Byzantine/Eastern Catholics also accept this understanding of indulgences?

I am absolutely in love with the Church and its reinvigoration of my relationship with Christ.....but indulgences and contraception are two huge stumbling blocks for me, and I just can't seem to agree with the church on these issues.

I wouldn't say it is contrived and absurd so much as simplistic or basic. I hope you aren't taking metaphoric terms in a literal way. PURGE-atorium is a place/state where imperfection/sin/iniquity is purged or cleansed or purified. For some reason a children's catechism understanding of purgatory is all that ever seems to be understood.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Purgatory is an important doctrine of our faith. However, there are many understandings other than the Gospel According To Dante. Many think of Purgatory as the mud room of heaven, where we are purified, taught and prepared before entering heaven.

In any case, the doctrine of indulgences is a different doctrine entirely, and one that has been misused over the centuries. Even now, it seem incomprehensible that saying a certain prayer or going to a certain shrine can be instrumental in the forgiveness of sin. We should recall the Jubilee Year when there were many, many indulgences.

What you are saying is incorrect.

The doctrine of indulgences is directly related to the doctrine of Purgatory. See the following from the Catholic encyclopedia:

VI. INDULGENCES

The Council of Trent (Sees. XXV) defined that indulgences are "most salutary for Christian people" and that their "use is to be retained in the Church". It is the common teaching of Catholic theologians that (1) indulgences may be applied to the souls detained in purgatory; and (2) that indulgences are available for them "by way of suffrage" (per modum suffragii).

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