Indoctrination Cult University

[ThatRobGuy]

Well here we go....finally...this is what I've been trying to get at. How did your average white person "exploit" this situation for so much gain? That's what white privilege is...right?

Are you talking about the average white person from today, or from back when the bad things were going on...because those are two different scenarios.

Back then, simply being a white person gave you certain advantages in that certain groups being intentionally boxed out of certain careers and societal aspects meant that even if a person wasn't racist, they're still benefiting from the fact that they have less competition for jobs and other things.

That should be a fairly simple concept if there are 10 people, and an employer specifically says "no matter what, I'm not going to hire those 2 because I feel they're inferior", then if you're one of the remaining 8...your chances of landing that job just went from 1/10 to 1/8...which is a clear advantage.

As far as today is concerned, that gap has definitely closed substantially, but still exists. Regardless of what anyone says, if you go to areas of the south, you're still more likely to be considered for a job if you're white vs. if you're black...even though there are laws against it, employers just have to think of another vague reason for those choices to CYA if they ever get called on it. For instance "I just think this person wasn't the right fit", etc...

And again, if you're a white person in that area, even if you're not racist and abhor racism, you're still benefiting from that other person's racism because it's eliminating a little bit of your competition for jobs, housing, etc...

I'll come back to this after you reply to the above. It seems like after 5 pages or so...you're almost at telling me what white privilege is.

No, I've explained it in various ways in this thread, you're just continuing to try to goad me or trick me into answering in a way that validates your position or that makes it look like I'm making uneducated or blanket statements when that's definitely not the case.

That's the mistake people make when discussing this topic...some people want to instantly take it as a slap in the face (I used to and I used to passionately argue against the notion of white privilege about a year or two ago if you go back and read my historical posts on the matter).

"Oh, so they're claiming I didn't work hard, and the only reason I'm successful is because dumb luck of being born white!" ...that's the defensive stance I would rush to as well.

...but the more you listen to the other side, and actually delve into the subject, the more you realize that's not what it's about. It's not about trying to diminish the accomplishments of white people who have worked hard, and it's not trying to claim that every white person is somehow bad or racist. It's about provided an explanation for the current state of certain minority communities and getting rid of this stigma that "it's their own dang fault they're in this situation", when the answer isn't that simple.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Are you talking about the average white person from today, or from back when the bad things were going on...because those are two different scenarios.

Back then, simply being a white person gave you certain advantages in that certain groups being intentionally boxed out of certain careers and societal aspects meant that even if a person wasn't racist, they're still benefiting from the fact that they have less competition for jobs and other things.

So...white guy back in the 50s gets a job, in your mind, is exploiting an advantage because a black man might not be able to get that job.

At this point, white privilege doesn't look like a privilege at all...it just looks like doing what you need to do to get by. I'll agree if the point is that you don't want any discrimination...I don't either. However, I don't vilify whites for just trying to survive.

That should be a fairly simple concept if there are 10 people, and an employer specifically says "no matter what, I'm not going to hire those 2 because I feel they're inferior", then if you're one of the remaining 8...your chances of landing that job just went from 1/10 to 1/8...which is a clear advantage.

At no fault of the 8...which doesn't diminish their achievements in any way.

As far as today is concerned, that gap has definitely closed substantially, but still exists. Regardless of what anyone says, if you go to areas of the south, you're still more likely to be considered for a job if you're white vs. if you're black...even though there are laws against it, employers just have to think of another vague reason for those choices to CYA if they ever get called on it. For instance "I just think this person wasn't the right fit", etc...

"Regardless of what anyone says" could be your new mantra.

And again, if you're a white person in that area, even if you're not racist and abhor racism, you're still benefiting from that other person's racism because it's eliminating a little bit of your competition for jobs, housing, etc...

Yup racism exists...it's a shame. There's always gonna be racist people, and some will actually succeed in life. It's tough man. That's a part of reality when you can't control thoughts.

No, I've explained it in various ways in this thread, you're just...*snip*

Ok. I won't reply.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

So...white guy back in the 50s gets a job, in your mind, is exploiting an advantage because a black man might not be able to get that job.

At this point, white privilege doesn't look like a privilege at all...it just looks like doing what you need to do to get by. I'll agree if the point is that you don't want any discrimination...I don't either. However, I don't vilify whites for just trying to survive.

Like I've said, I'm not suggesting that people who were benefiting even condoned the racism or thought it was a good thing, it's merely that they were benefiting from it.

You don't have to condone a bad situation (or be a bad person) in order to benefit from it.

At no fault of the 8...which doesn't diminish their achievements in any way.

Agreed...like I touched on before, it's not about claiming that white people today did something bad.

"Regardless of what anyone says" could be your new mantra.

Are you denying that there's still some serious racism happening in the south that's giving whites preferential treatment over blacks?

The reason why I used the words "regardless of what anyone says" is because there are some that will suggest that because there are laws on paper that are supposed to prevent racist housing and hiring practices, that somehow means it's a non-issue and anyone who says otherwise is just making excuses for the black community.

All the laws have done in those parts of the country is prevent employers from being as brazen about it as they were allowed to be back in the day. Now, instead of putting up a sign saying "coloreds need not apply", they have to think of a legit-sounding reason for their hiring decisions and have a few token black people on the staff to say "see, I'm not racist".

 

[Ana the Ist]

Like I've said, I'm not suggesting that people who were benefiting even condoned the racism or thought it was a good thing, it's merely that they were benefiting from it.

You don't have to condone a bad situation (or be a bad person) in order to benefit from it.

The problem I have most with this way of thinking is that when one focuses only on race...well everything becomes racial. There's simply no way to know how much inequality is actually due to race...or religion, or height, or attractiveness, or any of the other biases we have floating around in our minds.

So when someone says "well such and such is because of white privilege"...they're pretending to know something that simply cannot be known.

Agreed...like I touched on before, it's not about claiming that white people today did something bad.

What, if any, benefits do you see as coming from this kind of examination of "white privilege"?

Are you denying that there's still some serious racism happening in the south that's giving whites preferential treatment over blacks?

I think it's silly to think that racism is just in the south. I also don't know why you keep jumping back and forth between these two concepts...is there no difference between racism and white privilege in your mind?

The reason why I used the words "regardless of what anyone says" is because there are some that will suggest that because there are laws on paper that are supposed to prevent racist housing and hiring practices, that somehow means it's a non-issue and anyone who says otherwise is just making excuses for the black community.

I'm not making that claim...anything there's a law against is probably because it has happened, and will happen, or else why would we need the law?

I can only guess how much racism still affects job prospects...the best studies on the topic are limited. Sure, if you have a "black sounding" name, you may have to apply for 33% more jobs before getting a callback....but larger studies have shown that "black sounding" names have zero effect on lifetime financial achievement.

So while we might identify a difficulty associated with race, it doesn't necessarily mean that difficulty has any real effect on the disparity between whites and blacks.

All the laws have done in those parts of the country is prevent employers from being as brazen about it as they were allowed to be back in the day. Now, instead of putting up a sign saying "coloreds need not apply", they have to think of a legit-sounding reason for their hiring decisions and have a few token black people on the staff to say "see, I'm not racist".

I'm not going to say it never happens...but what you're talking about is suspiciously similar to mind reading arguments. Those kinds of arguments are not only logical fallacies...but they're perpetuated by negative biases to begin with.

Blacks today, compared to any other time in our nation's history, have more resources, more opportunities, and less obstacles to success than ever before. To say that the difficulties they face are simply because of "white privilege" isn't just insulting...it's naive. At some point, one has to look at a complex problem and realize the answer is probably just as complex.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Blacks today, compared to any other time in our nation's history, have more resources, more opportunities, and less obstacles to success than ever before. To say that the difficulties they face are simply because of "white privilege" isn't just insulting...it's naive. At some point, one has to look at a complex problem and realize the answer is probably just as complex.

They do, and that's a good thing...but being "better than before" doesn't necessarily equate to a good situation or "starting on a level playing field"

When the bad times were that bad (and it was pretty bad), that classification "better than before" is a pretty broad categorization.

I would agree that it's a complex problem with complex answers, and that's why I expressed early on that I don't like the blanket application of the term "white privilege" to explain all of the problems in that community.

In my opinion, it's not the only answer, but it is one of the answers...and one that accounts for quite a bit of the issues.

The problem here is that people try to look at a chain reaction scenario, and then separate the catalyst from the effects that are occurring 3 or 4 links down the chain.

For example, we know the history of what occurred, no need to recap that.

...but as far as the fallout-impacts of that:

-when you have an environment where job prospects are limited, you have more idle time (which leads to bad decisions), more crime, more drug use, etc...
-when you have more crime and more drug use, you have more people going to jail
-when you have more people going to jail, you have more fatherless homes
-when you have more fatherless homes, you have more single-parent poverty situations
-when you have more single-parent poverty situations, you have unsupervised kids engaging in the exact same kinds of behavior that landed their parents in hot water
----from there, the cycle repeats itself


People want to completely detach the catalyst that put the whole cycle in motion, and instead, put the focus solely on the residual effects and portray them as the main culprits as the issue. IE: they want to blame fatherless homes, drug use, and crime as the main causes, instead of putting some focus on the environment and system that spiked those things in the first place.

I know you're not a fan of me using analogies, but I'll do it anyway

It'd be like if I shut down the factory that employed 1/3 of the city for nefarious reasons (I didn't like the "kind" of people who were working there), and then when those negative societal issues crept up a few years down the road (due to increases in crime, drug use, etc...), I blamed it all on the crime rather than putting any focus on the initial action that spiked those things in the first place, and used it as a means to stigmatize the "kind" of people who I didn't like.

 

[Ana the Ist]

They do, and that's a good thing...but being "better than before" doesn't necessarily equate to a good situation or "starting on a level playing field"

Again, I don't know where you get this "starting on a level playing field" stuff to begin with. Arguably, when our ancestors first crawled out of Africa so many millennia ago...was probably the last time the "playing field" was anything close to level...for anyone.

When the bad times were that bad (and it was pretty bad), that classification "better than before" is a pretty broad categorization.

Right...but it's all comparative. As horrible as the comparison may be...who do you think had it "better"? A "two generations from slavery black family" or the descendents of the blacks still in Africa who traded them here?

I would agree that it's a complex problem with complex answers, and that's why I expressed early on that I don't like the blanket application of the term "white privilege" to explain all of the problems in that community.

What problems does it explain? Arguably a lot of what gets described as "white privilege" would be more accurately described as majority privilege or simply wealth privilege. It's not as if I could move to China and expect the same chances of getting hired for a job as a Chinese man....even if I spoke the language as well as he did, was as qualified, and had fully assimilated into their culture. Chances are, if a Chinese man is doing the hiring, I'm going to face some bias some of the time.

In my opinion, it's not the only answer, but it is one of the answers...and one that accounts for quite a bit of the issues.

Lol answer to what? Which issues? We could be examining large social groups by any number of dimensions and finding inequality...whether it's tall/short, athletic/fat, beautiful/ugly, straight/gay....so why are we focusing on the most racist one? I may be able to use statistics to generalize about the experiences and outcomes of tall people vs short people...but that certainly doesn't mean I should. After all, you'd agree that even if I showed tall people generally make more money over their lifetimes...the experiences of tall people vary so greatly that such an observation doesn't really matter, right?

If the conversation about white privilege was honest or purely academic, I wouldn't have any real issue with it. If it was simply "white privilege exists, it isn't quantifiable, it varies greatly from individual to individual, and like all other privileges...people should take care in using it responsibly."....then I wouldn't have any real problems with it.

That's not why it became part of the national discourse though...and it's not why it remains part of the national discourse. It's used in a very racist way to excuse problems in minority communities and to shame whites into turning out their pockets.

People want to completely detach the catalyst that put the whole cycle in motion, and instead, put the focus solely on the residual effects and portray them as the main culprits as the issue. IE: they want to blame fatherless homes, drug use, and crime as the main causes, instead of putting some focus on the environment and system that spiked those things in the first place.

I know you're not a fan of me using analogies, but I'll do it anyway

It'd be like if I shut down the factory that employed 1/3 of the city for nefarious reasons (I didn't like the "kind" of people who were working there), and then when those negative societal issues crept up a few years down the road (due to increases in crime, drug use, etc...), I blamed it all on the crime rather than putting any focus on the initial action that spiked those things in the first place, and used it as a means to stigmatize the "kind" of people who I didn't like.

I've never heard of a factory shutting down for nefarious reasons...so I'm not quite sure what that part of the analogy is supposed to relate to.

But just as you blame some people for only seeing one side of the equation...you're only looking at the factory shutting down. You're ignoring that the drug use, the crime, and in a lot of cases the fatherless homes are choices. A factory shutting down may be a part of the reason for some of those choices...but they're still choices.

Let me ask you this...if you genuinely believe that white privilege is a direct cause of so much inequity...then surely you believe something should be done about it? If so...what would that be?