Indoctrinating children

[Curious Atheist]

Fair enough, a lot of us would think that is silly. Children don't get to make up their minds in regards to most things, so it is silly to think they should in a matter as important as this.

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Well we can agree to disgree then, as I feel the more important decisions (ie life changing decisions) make it even more important for it to be their own choice. I also disagree children don't make their own choices or they would be robots that do only as they are told. However when told from a young age something is fact, it is difficult to question this later on.

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot]This isn't true only of religion, but of science as well. The whole realm of science rests upon a set of unproveable philosophical presuppositions, or brute facts, that must be assumed, on faith, to be true. The statement, "Only what can be empirically tested and verified is true" is self-refuting since the statement itself cannot be empirically verified. There are other spheres of knowledge and inquiry into our world and universe that are just as important and reasonable as the scientific one. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We have gone down this path before. But the bible itself was written with many of the same assumptions of reality, so I don’t know why you dispute the methods of science so much. It is as if you are motivated to dispute anything that contradicts your religion instead of weighing the facts evenly. My opinion is ‘what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence’.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The Christian faith, at least, does have strong philosophical, historical and even scientific evidence in support of its claims of God's existence. It doesn't rely solely upon blind faith as some assert. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then God has shown himself and faith isn’t necessary? That contradicts pretty much everything about faith and God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]See the Kalam Cosmological Argument or Liebniz's Argument from Contingency.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am familiar[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But when we bring children in to the equation I have a very deep moral objection to them being indoctrinated in to their parent’s faith. I see it as no different to a lover of tattoos getting their new born a dirty great skull tattooed across their chest.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]False analogy. While it is possible to tattoo a newborn infant, it is not possible to indoctrinate one. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please don’t be pedantic I am trying my best to be unbias with my examples. No you cannot indoctrinate a new born as it hasn’t learnt language yet. Assume the child can speak, then use the same analogy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Are you against homosexuals indoctrinating their adopted children into a homosexual lifestyle? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes I am. I don’t think it is right to force any opinions on to a child. But I have never heard of anything like this happening as Gay people don’t feel compelled to spread their way of life the way Christians do. Most gay people were born gay, it wasn’t a decision they suddenly made to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] off Catholics and there is nothing to suggest they don’t make great parents. It is religious prejudice at its worst that condemns homosexuality. It is far more natural than a man coming back from the dead.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The fact is, the average child growing up in North America is constantly and powerfully bombarded with anti-Christian philosophy in the media, public education, t.v. and popular entertainment. The culture itself is a powerful indoctrinating agency in the life of every individual growing up in that culture. Does the child get to choose to be indoctrinated this way? Of course not! Do you, then, object to this cultural indoctrination of children? Or is your objection a selective one? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We don’t live in a perfect world, but we can all be self-aware. For example I am very aware I believe in equal rights because of the way I was raised, if I was raised as a Muslim I may see non-believers as less than animals and women as worth half of a man. So yes opinions are formed by society and the media, but it isn’t only one message that you are exposed to. You may drive by a campaign poster saying ‘question God’ then switch on the radio to hear a preacher pretending to faith heal. Why can you not see you are Christian because you were raised Christian? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We are hard-wired as children to believe anything we are told (evolutionary speaking) as you can see with Santa and the tooth fairy. More importantly is exactly what a child is being told, that they will burn in hell for not following the rules that YOU have chosen to follow.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Strawman Argument. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Why is it? Thousands of years ago if your parent told you ‘don’t go near the river’ and you didn’t listen you may have been eaten by a crocodile. The ones who listened unquestionably would not be eaten. Likewise ‘do not eat that berry it is poisonous’. There are many examples that show the benefit of blind faith, I am suggesting that telling children opinions as fact is taking advantage of this. It is not a strawman argument, you just don’t understand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You may see it as protection, but the cruelty imposed on a child who fears hell is child abuse and one of the worst in my opinion, as it will rule their whole lives.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Strawman Argument. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Again why? Do you not think a child fears hell when they are told they will be sent there for having sex before marriage? Or for eating too much? Or simply for not believing Jesus was born of a virgin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My parents taught me about Hell but also about the love, grace and mercy of God. They taught me sin was bad and righteousness was good. They taught me that God is a Heavenly Father to His children and Christ a Good Shepherd who loves his sheep. Hell is not the whole of Christian doctrine as you seem to want to make it out to be here. In fact, it is a very small part of it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What a coincidence you are a Christian yourself with such an upbringing! Extraordinary [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In public schools and many private ones as well children are inculcated into a secular, naturalistic, and relativistic worldview. Anyone who thinks public schools don't have a philosophical agenda is profoundly out of touch with reality. I remember my high school English classes where we weren't taught grammar, or how to properly frame a paragraph, but instead were encouraged to examine and discuss the sexual antics of characters in the books we were forced to read. And the characters were never condemned for their promiscuity in the books we read or in the class discussions. The absence of condemnation was, essentially, tantamount to approval. This sort of thing is even worse now twenty-plus years after my high school days. THe fact is, somebody's worldview is going to be put forward to our children. It is impossible that it could be otherwise. Why should I let a worldview I totally disagree with shape the thinking and values of my child? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You could try respecting other people’s opinions and love your child enough to let them be free to think for themselves. Freedom is a valuable thing, I am sure Jesus would want children to be free of their parents prejudices.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What harm does having sex do to anyone? Why not educate about contraception instead of saying it is fine as long as you have signed a peace of paper that says you are legally bound? It makes no rational sense, so it is your opinion. What your teacher was trying to do is to get you to think for yourself, decide for yourself if you think what they were doing in the book was right or wrong. Unfortunately you had already learnt the Christian way of thinking instead of taking a rational, unbiased approach.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Being taught how to think and being taught what to think go hand in hand. It is unavoidable that in teaching a child how to think one also teaches them what to think. If I say to Johnny, "A bird cannot be both totally black and totally white at the same time and in the same way," I am steering the child away from relativism toward a philosophy that is more rooted in principles of logic. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Your example is merely a statement of fact. It would be opinion if you said it they could be both. Do you not see the difference? Why not just present a theory to children, give them the facts and let them decide? What is so wrong with that?

[/FONT]

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Many of you will claim categorically 100% that God is real and speaks to you inside your own head. However can we all agree that religion of any type fundamentally relies on faith? Isn’t the whole part of God being absent part of his wish for us to have faith in the end? So surely we can agree you cannot prove (or disprove which is an easier subject) the existence of God?

To start out I disagree with your assumption that Christian faith is based upon myth, or made up conversations in our head. My God speaks back and has helped me and others using this ability. See my Website to see what I am talking about Know God Personally I have real experiences with God, and have every right to bring my own child up to know these facts.

But when we bring children in to the equation I have a very deep moral objection to them being indoctrinated in to their parent’s faith. I see it as no different to a lover of tattoos getting their new born a dirty great skull tattooed across their chest.

I have to agree with the previous poster on their comment that atheism is as much a faith as eny other thing. It teaches there is no God. If there truly was a God, then that I dea should not be taught. Because there is a God, see my Website for my experiences to see why I believe, your idea is wrong and should not be taught not the other way around.

 

[Mess]

The real question is, do you as an Atheist not also teach your child that there is no God? I mean, if you are completely fair in this, then you'd have to tell your children, you know I believe there is no God, I can't disprove Him, so He might just really exist. We are people all of us give on to our children part of our own moral codes, that does not mean that, that is the way people become Christian. If that were so, people from non Christian households would never convert, that is simply not true, if that were true than people from Christian families would always become Christian, also not true.

It always annoys me when atheists say that yeah christians shouldn't teach their children about christianity, but that is like saying, yeah parents a big part of who you are is defined by Him, but don't show your kids who you are, but the rest of us, go right ahead. It's hypocrisy at it's finest, and just plane outright an attack on one of God's institutes namely family life(not that that is anything new). It's His gifts that grant us a family, the least we can do is make Him central in that(and no my family isn't Christian).

EDIT: Aren't children also indoctrinated into certain world views at schools? I used to study te become a teacher, I got specifically trained to convey an as liberal world view as possible. Same goes for rubbish like Evolution, unproven theory, but all children are getting it shoved down their throats, while creationism is practically outlawed. Again if you are fair, than you need to stop things like that, and then atheists can come out and chide us on teaching our children on what is not just something we believe in, but is also something we live by and basically leads us every second of our day.

 

[HaveHope]

I think the default to any queston you don't understand or have experience with is 'I don't know'. Children therefore have a lot of questions, I am arguing that they get an even chance to make up their own minds. Atheism is not a faith in any way, it is the rejection of faith. If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease! (not my quote)

I purposefully did not say atheism was a faith--I said it was a belief, an opinion.

My parents actually brought me up without religion (they're atheists). They have the same type of attitude it seems that you do, that children should make up their own minds, and I had the same opinion for most of my life. It wasn't until I became a Christian (how did that happen?) that I realized how hypocritical I was.

I have children, and because I was not a christian until recently and my husband still is not, our children have not been raised to believe in Jesus. This doesn't mean that they were not raised to believe in anything. Just like I was not raised without my parents beliefs, either. Parent's beliefs are passed down to their children, and no amount of saying that you're just letting your children decide for themselves changes the fact that they are learning your beliefs. What I learned, and unfortunately what I've taught my children, is that faith does not matter. That is a just as much a belief (an opinion, not a fact) as any religious belief.

If it's okay to teach a child that faith doesn't matter, then it's okay to teach them that it does.

 

[Curious Atheist]

The real question is, do you as an Atheist not also teach your child that there is no God? I mean, if you are completely fair in this, then you'd have to tell your children, you know I believe there is no God, I can't disprove Him, so He might just really exist.

Of course I would teach him/her about religion. I would present the facts and they can decide for themselves.


We are people all of us give on to our children part of our own moral codes, that does not mean that, that is the way people become Christian. If that were so, people from non Christian households would never convert, that is simply not true, if that were true than people from Christian families would always become Christian, also not true.

If you are told from a child that creationism is fact and you never hear the alternatives based on science then you are very likely to remain a creationist. Can you not see that America is so religious for a reason? That you have the 'bible belt' of creationists purely because of what they are taught, or not taught as children? 90% of Americans are Christian, nearly 100% of iraqi's are Muslim, this is not a coincedence.

It always annoys me when atheists say that yeah christians shouldn't teach their children about christianity

When have I said this? I have repeated myself again and again yet you still ignore what I am saying. Isn't this what Christians call a 'strawman' argument?

It's hypocrisy at it's finest, and just plane outright an attack on one of God's institutes namely family life(not that that is anything new). It's His gifts that grant us a family, the least we can do is make Him central in that(and no my family isn't Christian).

Where's the hypocrisy in allowing freedom of choice? It is hypocrisy at it's finest, not to mention the highest level of arrogance to think your opinion is the only one worthy enough to be taught to the next generation. You surely must acknowledge your ideas are based on faith that bible is truth, not through any rationalisation. So why not present your beliefs as such? So to repeat myself yet again, teaching the bible is fine, but present it as what it is, not hard fact.

EDIT: Aren't children also indoctrinated into certain world views at schools? I used to study te become a teacher, I got specifically trained to convey an as liberal world view as possible. Same goes for rubbish like Evolution, unproven theory, but all children are getting it shoved down their throats, while creationism is practically outlawed. Again if you are fair, than you need to stop things like that, and then atheists can come out and chide us on teaching our children on what is not just something we believe in, but is also something we live by and basically leads us every second of our day.[/quote]

Stop what sorry? Giving children the facts of the world so they can decide what to believe? I know you don't want to accept it as it questions your idea of God, but evolution is as much of a fact as the world being round. It is 100% proven and if you read a book you would know this. I am almost certain you will not do this, but why deny this to children? Your children do not need to live by the same beliefs as you just for having the bad luck of being born into your family. As a society we generally bend over backwards to avoid offending any religion, but when it comes to education and creationism it really is very silly indeed.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I purposefully did not say atheism was a faith--I said it was a belief, an opinion.

You did word it differently, but you compared atheism as a belief on par with Christianity:

" But since you won't admit that atheism is itself a belief (an opinion, not a fact), then you can't see that what you're suggesting --when you say that religion should be presented to children as simply a choice that some people make-- is, in fact, indoctrinating children to be atheists"

So what is the difference? Christianity is based on faith and atheism is the rejection of this faith along with the other 100's of religions. You just dismiss all but one.

My parents actually brought me up without religion (they're atheists). They have the same type of attitude it seems that you do, that children should make up their own minds, and I had the same opinion for most of my life. It wasn't until I became a Christian (how did that happen?) that I realized how hypocritical I was.

What is hypocritical about freedom of choice? The responses so far seem to imply that I am trying to stop Christians teaching their religion. I am not, I just think everyone deserves the choices your parents granted you. You grew up and became a Christian on your own, so why do children need to be indoctrinated? Why the paranoia it will lead to something negative?

I have children, and because I was not a christian until recently and my husband still is not, our children have not been raised to believe in Jesus. This doesn't mean that they were not raised to believe in anything. Just like I was not raised without my parents beliefs, either. Parent's beliefs are passed down to their children, and no amount of saying that you're just letting your children decide for themselves changes the fact that they are learning your beliefs. What I learned, and unfortunately what I've taught my children, is that faith does not matter. That is a just as much a belief (an opinion, not a fact) as any religious belief.

If it's okay to teach a child that faith doesn't matter, then it's okay to teach them that it does.

Again I am not saying children will not learn anything from their parents example, it is part of being a parent to set a good example. It would be ridiculous to say children are completely neutral and not subjective to their surroundings. But actually teaching religious faith as fact is a different matter, religious faith is a learned behaviour.

My example would be to imagine a civilisation cut off from the world from birth and left for 10,000 years. They may very well form their own religion based on various superstitions, which is the same for most civilisations in the world today. They then may progress scientifically and improve their understanding, leaving certain superstitions behind as they become obsolete. However they would NEVER come to the conclusion of Jesus being God, or anything else Christianity is based on. Christianity is purely spread from one being to another like a virus. Science is universal and they would eventually learn of gravity, maths and yes they would come to the conclusion of evolution.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Islam emphasis fear of hell and prize of heaven heavily and is the main or only motivation. They need to see and experience Godly type Love to be able to someday make the decision to accept or reject that Love. Heaven and hell can be added motivation for those that have not yet accepted God's Love.

How many times is heaven described or even mentioned in the bible?

Now, same question for hell? 'DING DING DING' we have a winner, and a winning motivation for Christianity too.

How can you condemn Islam? Have you even met a muslim, ever had muslim friends? Or do you avoid them because they have a different religion to you?

 

[AlexBP]

[FONT=&quot]Well, you have now encountered me on the internet at least. I am only using Christian indoctrination as this is a Christian forum, there is no prejudice intended so please don’t get defensive. My point is that there would be outrage if a teacher took it upon themselves in America (as an example) to teach the Koran. So why is this wrong, yet it is acceptable to preach a different opinion? There is never outrage against teaching maths or literature as it is universal. I wouldn’t teach a child communism is wrong, I would tell them about different types of government and that we live in a society of democracy. [/FONT]

As I pointed out, there are teachers in the United States who teach the Koran as fact. There were professors who advocated communism fifty years ago. If they no longer do so, that's because the facts about communism were exposed and forced even the most recalcitrant Marxists to change their views. The point is that it's the role of parents and other caregivers to decide what children should learn, including religious training. Public schools in the USA exist to teach a curriculum agreed upon by society, which does not include religious training. If a public school teacher went far outside their bounds and started teaching the Koran, that would be wrong because they'd be usurping the role that properly belongs to parents. But if the parents in a Muslim family choose to teach their children the Koran, that's just fine. It happens in hundreds of thousands of families every day and no one is outraged about it.

[FONT=&quot]Me: Others have already provided several responses to this but I'll add one more. You suggest that I should feel okay letting my children have a long dalliance with beliefs systems other than Christianity because once they've considered the evidence, they'll return to Christianity. Perhaps they would; however, I'd rather they not have the dalliance at all because they might get mixed up with hard drinking, drugs, easy sex, suicide, or other things that can cause death or major harm.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
You: Sorry but your comment is ridiculous. Anyone who isn’t raised to believe Jesus was the son of God makes poor choices and commits suicide? Why would anyone commit suicide because they don’t have religon, what a bizarre way of thinking.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Please read what I said: "I'd rather they not have the dalliance at all because they might get mixed up with hard drinking, drugs, easy sex, suicide, or other things that can cause death or major harm." So did I say that "Anyone who is raised to believe Jesus was the son of God makes poor choices and commits suicide?" Obviously not. There's no way that anything I said can be interpreted as meaning that. What I said was that those children who are strongly involved in religion are less likely to use drugs and alcohol, engage in dangerous sexual behavior, and commit suicide, as compared to those who don't; I've given a citation for a study that backs this up. In any case, as I said, I have personal experience with the suffering and suicidal thoughts that can result from living in a godless, purposeless worldview. That's[FONT=&quot] why I wouldn't want my children to go through the same thing.[/FONT]

I have to point out that even those who believe they will go to heaven are terrified of death.

I'm not. Neither are a great many others.[/FONT]

 

[Daniel25]

This subject really hits a nerve with me and I lost my temper when we touched on it in a different thread. It damn near stopped me from ever posting here again. I am sorry for the way I said it, but I can't take back the point I was making. So with a little help I shall try and keep this civil!

I think we need to try and agree on what counts on a personal opinion or fact. Many of you will claim categorically 100% that God is real and speaks to you inside your own head. However can we all agree that religion of any type fundamentally relies on faith? Isn’t the whole part of God being absent part of his wish for us to have faith in the end? So surely we can agree you cannot prove (or disprove which is an easier subject) the existence of God?

So what would the best way of finding your faith in God? Surely it is a personal decision based on how you view the world around you, deducing that the world isn’t an accident and the best answer to all of life’s questions is the existence of God. Perhaps you then start looking for God and find him everywhere, your personal experiences of prayer or otherwise make you more and more sure of his existence. At some point along the journey you learn to love God and wish to serve his message and are 100% convinced.

You can see I am playing devil’s advocate here and there is no need for an atheist example/debate.

So firstly is the above more or less OK? Of course it will differ for individuals but can we accept finding faith in God is a personal journey built on personal experiences and faith?

But when we bring children in to the equation I have a very deep moral objection to them being indoctrinated in to their parent’s faith. I see it as no different to a lover of tattoos getting their new born a dirty great skull tattooed across their chest. Nor any different to a gay couple trying to force their child to be gay, as an example that might get a stronger reaction from many of you (not that I have ever heard of this happening)!

My moral objection is that a child is unable to decide for themselves on any such example. A child has no concept of many of the important aspects that form a belief or opinion, they can’t say no to the tattoo nor have any reason to not believe what a parent tells them. We are hard-wired as children to believe anything we are told (evolutionary speaking) as you can see with Santa and the tooth fairy. More importantly is exactly what a child is being told, that they will burn in hell for not following the rules that YOU have chosen to follow. You may see it as protection, but the cruelty imposed on a child who fears hell is child abuse and one of the worst in my opinion, as it will rule their whole lives.
For example I am quite terrified of spiders as are many of us. But (in the UK at least) spiders are entirely harmless and it is a completely irrational fear that I learnt from seeing an adult fear spiders as a child (the only way arachnophobia is passed on). I know this but the fear is still very real to me. There is a rather heart-wrenching article I will try and find of an ex-catholic atheist who still fears hell and has nightmares decades after leaving the church.

I know many will argue that it is just a different opinion to what is taught in schools. But you see, in school we are taught to read and write, how to use numbers in maths and how the world actually works. We can safely teach a child a triangle has three squares or that 1 part hydrogen and 2 parts oxygen creates water, because we know this. Likewise we know evolution is true yet it isn’t universally taught in America due to the same superstitions. Imagine the outrage if teachers started teaching communism as the correct way to think, or my previous point if a Muslim teacher taught the Koran as fact. Please consider these last two points before dismissing them, really try and imagine how you would feel and you will probably understand why I am so outraged by it too.

The way we are taught to think as a child is extremely important. This is key, as really all a child needs is to be taught how to think and not what. Also to get to my first point, isn’t it better to find your own faith rather than being told what to think too young? Wouldn’t Jesus prefer for people to look for him? Isn’t that a purer form of faith and wouldn’t Jesus want it that way, to go on your own journey to the truth?

I would be interested to hear what justifications you have. Please bear in mind that I have predicted many of your replies so will likely ignore the obvious/silly ones.

Thanks

James

Indoctrination in a necessary and salutory part of education. If parents do not inculcate a love of virtue in their wards, the media, hollywood, and public schooling will gladly inculcate a love of vice.

To any set of ideas, there are fundamental ones that cannot be proven. These basic ideas are the grounds on which one's whole outlook is constructed. This is true for any systematic way of thinking. You are familiar with some, such as the rules for logic, so on so forth. All unprovable by themselves, but necessary for having a consistant and coherant system of thought. Honestly, there is not a question of whether or not to indoctrinate; the question is to whether you will abhor vice or give it shelter.

 

[Curious Atheist]

As I pointed out, there are teachers in the United States who teach the Koran as fact. There were professors who advocated communism fifty years ago. If they no longer do so, that's because the facts about communism were exposed and forced even the most recalcitrant Marxists to change their views.

But the facts about creationism have also been exposed to be completely false. So if you want to base education on fact instead of personal opinions then surely we should be agreeing.

The point is that it's the role of parents and other caregivers to decide what children should learn, including religious training.

This is where I disagree, you might be the parent or caregiver but we are talking about a human life. A human life isn’t something that should be owned or manipulated like property. Religion is a life choice I feel should be reserved for those who actually understand what they are dealing with, and more importantly the alternatives they are ignoring. If someone wished to ignore facts to keep their faith then so be it, but they should have the opportunity to know of these facts before doing so.

Public schools in the USA exist to teach a curriculum agreed upon by society, which does not include religious training. If a public school teacher went far outside their bounds and started teaching the Koran, that would be wrong because they'd be usurping the role that properly belongs to parents. But if the parents in a Muslim family choose to teach their children the Koran, that's just fine. It happens in hundreds of thousands of families every day and no one is outraged about it.

No, schools are a place to be educated in facts so children can grow up with a working understanding of the world. A place to learn how to think, to make rational decisions and generally form their own opinions. For example do you believe in voodoo? If you believe in social conformity so strongly would you drop your faith and start practicing voodoo if you moved to South America? where it was taught as fact in schools? What about the genuine percentage of Americans who believe in faith healing, would you advocate doctors be replaced with preachers if the majority believed it? Or psychics etc
You are also wrong as millions are outraged by indoctrination I don’t know why you think we are not. Would you not be outraged if you moved abroad and your child had no choice but to learn voodoo? Or even, the wrong type of Christianity as there are so many contradicting interpretations
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Please read what I said: "I'd rather they not have the dalliance at all because they might get mixed up with hard drinking, drugs, easy sex, suicide, or other things that can cause death or major harm." So did I say that "Anyone who is raised to believe Jesus was the son of God makes poor choices and commits suicide?" Obviously not. There's no way that anything I said can be interpreted as meaning that. What I said was that those children who are strongly involved in religion are less likely to use drugs and alcohol, engage in dangerous sexual behavior, and commit suicide, as compared to those who don't; I've given a citation for a study that backs this up. In any case, as I said, I have personal experience with the suffering and suicidal thoughts that can result from living in a godless, purposeless worldview. That's[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]why I wouldn't want my children to go through the same thing.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I'm not. Neither are a great many others[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
Sorry, I must have misunderstood or exaggerated your point somehow whilst replying. But what you are saying is still a complete fallacy, there is no evidence to suggest non-believers are more likely to do any of those things. It is effectively prejudice/racism to say such a thing. Would you not find it offensive if you lived in a country that saw Christians as stupid? And you were then treated as second rate morons?
On a personal note, my cousin committed suicide after converting to Christianity. She must have been depressed before, but it was her faith that she would be going to heaven that pushed her over the edge. So she clearly didn’t read the part of the bible that tells depressed people they will burn in hell for eternity for not liking the ‘gift’ of life God gave them.

 

[HaveHope]

I purposefully did not say atheism was a faith--I said it was a belief, an opinion.

You did word it differently, but you compared atheism as a belief on par with Christianity:

" But since you won't admit that atheism is itself a belief (an opinion, not a fact), then you can't see that what you're suggesting --when you say that religion should be presented to children as simply a choice that some people make-- is, in fact, indoctrinating children to be atheists"

So what is the difference? Christianity is based on faith and atheism is the rejection of this faith along with the other 100's of religions. You just dismiss all but one.

A belief is still just a belief, whether it is based on faith or on the rejection of faith. You think there is some substantial difference that makes your belief superior to religious faith, but it's still just an opinion and nothing more. Your belief is that children should be presented with religion as merely a choice that some people make, and that belief is no different than the belief that children should be taught that Jesus is the Son of God.

My parents actually brought me up without religion (they're atheists). They have the same type of attitude it seems that you do, that children should make up their own minds, and I had the same opinion for most of my life. It wasn't until I became a Christian (how did that happen?) that I realized how hypocritical I was.

What is hypocritical about freedom of choice? The responses so far seem to imply that I am trying to stop Christians teaching their religion. I am not, I just think everyone deserves the choices your parents granted you. You grew up and became a Christian on your own, so why do children need to be indoctrinated? Why the paranoia it will lead to something negative?

What is hypocritical is that you are not admitting that presenting religion the way you are suggesting is just as indoctrinating as any other method. You said that you believe that children who are brought up without religion will be more likely to be atheists. Is this because of their free choice, or is it because their parents presented religion as something that is not factually true and doesn't really matter? If this is what you're teaching your children, wouldn't you (based on what you've said on this thread) think that they will then grow up to believe that faith is meaningless? You seem to speaking out of both sides of your mouth on this.

As I said before, I did not raise my children with religion, and I am certainly not paranoid about it. You seem to be the one who is very concerned (paranoid?) about your perceived negative effects of teaching children faith.

Again I am not saying children will not learn anything from their parents example, it is part of being a parent to set a good example. It would be ridiculous to say children are completely neutral and not subjective to their surroundings. But actually teaching religious faith as fact is a different matter, religious faith is a learned behaviour.

Maybe, but just because something is a learned behavior does not make it automatically unnatural or wrong. Speech is a learned behavior, but it would be considered dysfunctional and unnatural for a human to not learn to talk.

Your attitude toward religious faith is also learned.

My example would be to imagine a civilisation cut off from the world from birth and left for 10,000 years. They may very well form their own religion based on various superstitions, which is the same for most civilisations in the world today. They then may progress scientifically and improve their understanding, leaving certain superstitions behind as they become obsolete. However they would NEVER come to the conclusion of Jesus being God, or anything else Christianity is based on. Christianity is purely spread from one being to another like a virus. Science is universal and they would eventually learn of gravity, maths and yes they would come to the conclusion of evolution.

This paragraph is full of assumptions. First, not all Christians are "creationists" who discount evolution. I'm not one of them. I don't really have time to get into the rest of it.

 

[AlexBP]

Sorry, I must have misunderstood or exaggerated your point somehow whilst replying. But what you are saying is still a complete fallacy, there is no evidence to suggest non-believers are more likely to do any of those things.

Actually there is evidence. In post #17 of this thread, I posted a reference to a survey paper that establishes the fact clearly. You can look at the paper to get the details and references. If you don't agree with this survey's results, what are you reasons for disagreeing? After all, it's you who's constantly insisting that science and factual information are on your side. Why, then, do you ignore this particular scientific finding?

It is effectively prejudice/racism to say such a thing.

It's not racism since it makes no mention of race. It is prejudice, but prejudices with a factual basis are good things, not bad.

Would you not find it offensive if you lived in a country that saw Christians as stupid? And you were then treated as second rate morons?

I live in a country where many individuals believe that Christians are stupid and treat us as such. I ignore those people. (Need I remind you that you were saying exactly that in your previous thread?)

 

[AlexBP]

[FONT=&quot]Sorry is this a serious question? I was hoping to have a proper discussion about this. I could turn it around and say teaching Christianity leads to fundamentalists murdering doctors, but that isn’t always true so I wouldn’t say it is. We do not need to use extremes to prove a point, I am only saying it is wrong to teach opinion as fact and depriving a child in forming their own opinions. Anyway it is religious beliefs that lead to such things, not rationality.[/FONT]
...
[FONT=&quot]There is never outrage against teaching maths or literature as it is universal.

[/FONT]
Look at this from my perspective. I see a single anonymous internet user who claims that he's outraged about my plans to raise my children as Christians, if I ever have children. He says that it's wrong to teach children a religion as factual, but it's okay to teach math and literature because those things are universal. Math is not universal and literature even less so. As I've already said, I can easily find people who think that math is a matter of opinion. Read a book by Brian Rotman or Paul Ernest if you don't believe me. As for literature, it seems to me blatantly obvious that different literature teachers will teach different books and say different things about them, and this very frequently stirs up considerable controversy.

Your line of argument is that anyone who would question teach math or literature is an "extreme" and therefore not relevant to the argument. From my perspective your opinions are as extreme as those of Mr. Rotman and Mr. Ernest, hence I don't see why I should take you seriously if we're going to dismiss those two as kooks.

 

[AlexBP]

Me: The point is that it's the role of parents and other caregivers to decide what children should learn, including religious training.

You: This is where I disagree, you might be the parent or caregiver but we are talking about a human life. A human life isn’t something that should be owned or manipulated like property. Religion is a life choice I feel should be reserved for those who actually understand what they are dealing with, and more importantly the alternatives they are ignoring. If someone wished to ignore facts to keep their faith then so be it, but they should have the opportunity to know of these facts before doing so.

Let's back up a second. Your main argument in this thread is that since supposedly Americans would be outraged at teachers teaching communism or the Koran, therefore it's equally outrageous that anyone would teach their own children Christianity. But I've explained the fallacy there. I will determine my own children's education, and I will let anyone else determine their children's education. End of story. All that's left then is your insistence that I shouldn't teach my children Christianity, which you admit is something that you "feel". I don't care what you feel. You also say "a human life isn't something that should be owned or manipulated like property". I agree, but see no relevance to this thread.

No, schools are a place to be educated in facts so children can grow up with a working understanding of the world. A place to learn how to think, to make rational decisions and generally form their own opinions. For example do you believe in voodoo? If you believe in social conformity so strongly would you drop your faith and start practicing voodoo if you moved to South America?

Huh? First of all, I don't recall saying that I believe in social conformity strongly. Second, the majority religion in South America is not voodoo; it's Christianity.

You are also wrong as millions are outraged by indoctrination I don’t know why you think we are not.

Really? Why should I believe this claim. Have millions of people appointed you as there spokesman?

 

[aiki]

We have gone down this path before. But the bible itself was written with many of the same assumptions of reality, so I don’t know why you dispute the methods of science so much.

I don't dispute the methods of science. I dispute the idea that faith and science are somehow mutually exclusive.

It is as if you are motivated to dispute anything that contradicts your religion instead of weighing the facts evenly. My opinion is ‘what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence’.

This is a rather simplistic approach to knowledge, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[FONT="]The Christian faith, at least, does have strong philosophical, historical and even scientific evidence in support of its claims of God's existence. It doesn't rely solely upon blind faith as some assert. [/FONT]

[FONT="]Then God has shown himself and faith isn’t necessary? That contradicts pretty much everything about faith and God.[/FONT]

God has shown Himself in the person of Christ. But faith remains necessary. Having direct experience of someone doesn't preclude having faith in them. For example, I have faith in my wife.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

But I have never heard of anything like this happening as Gay people don’t feel compelled to spread their way of life the way Christians do.

I couldn't disagree more! Many homosexuals most certainly do spread their way of life with an evangelistic fervor. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]And when you object to them doing so, they call you homophobic and intolerant or worse.

Most gay people were born gay, it wasn’t a decision they suddenly made

Please provide proof of this assertion. In fact, homosexuality is not "in the genes" despite several attempts in the last twenty years or so to prove that it is. What has been discovered is that homosexuality appears to be the result of several covergent factors that are sociological, hormonal, and psychological in origin. No one is "born gay." [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT="]It is religious prejudice at its worst that condemns homosexuality.[/FONT]

No, it is a desire to restrain an obvious perversion of nature and to preserve God's intended design for sexuality that produces a resistance to it among Christians.

We don’t live in a perfect world, but we can all be self-aware. For example I am very aware I believe in equal rights because of the way I was raised, if I was raised as a Muslim I may see non-believers as less than animals and women as worth half of a man. So yes opinions are formed by society and the media, but it isn’t only one message that you are exposed to. You may drive by a campaign poster saying ‘question God’ then switch on the radio to hear a preacher pretending to faith heal. Why can you not see you are Christian because you were raised Christian?

So, you agree with me that there are all sorts of sources of indoctrination imposing themselves upon us. Great. You were objecting to such indoctrination, especially of children, because they could not make adult, well-informed decisions about what to believe and not believe. It seems now that you are saying, "Indoctrination can't be helped," which seems a rather passive response given how animated you are about Christian indoctrination of children. Why aren't you equally as opposed to all forms of indoctrination of children? Why get so excited about what a Christian will teach their child and not what a secularist, or relativist, or naturalist will teach them? If indoctrination of children is wrong because they are unable to make mature decisions about what to believe, then all indoctrination is equally wrong.

[FONT="]My parents taught me about Hell but also about the love, grace and mercy of God. They taught me sin was bad and righteousness was good. They taught me that God is a Heavenly Father to His children and Christ a Good Shepherd who loves his sheep. Hell is not the whole of Christian doctrine as you seem to want to make it out to be here. In fact, it is a very small part of it. [/FONT]

[FONT="]What a coincidence you are a Christian yourself with such an upbringing! Extraordinary [/FONT]

Did you purposely ignore the point of my comments here? I offered them to explain why your caricature of what Christian parents tell their children (hell, hell, and more hell) is a Strawman Argument.

[FONT="]THe fact is, somebody's worldview is going to be put forward to our children. It is impossible that it could be otherwise. Why should I let a worldview I totally disagree with shape the thinking and values of my child? [/FONT]

[FONT="]You could try respecting other people’s opinions[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

I do - when their opinions warrant respect. No one is obliged to respect another's opinion merely because they hold it.

[/FONT]

and love your child enough to let them be free to think for themselves.

Children think for themselves quite as a matter of course - whether their parent loves them or not. But, when they think that something dangerous is harmless, a parent is obliged by law and their own love for that child to prevent him from acting upon that mistaken thinking. When a child thinks hurting another child to get what he wants is okay, a parent is obliged to correct that thinking. When a child thinks tormenting an animal is fun, a parent must needs correct that thinking. And so on. These instances where a parent curtails or corrects the "free thinking" of their child is not unloving, but rather quite the reverse!

[FONT="]Freedom is a valuable thing, I am sure Jesus would want children to be free of their parents prejudices.[/FONT]

He would want parents above all to tell their kids the truth! And the truth, as far as a Christian is concerned, begins and ends with God.

It is ironic that your own prejudice against the Christian worldview informs everything you're writing here. You say that freedom is a valuable thing but you are espousing a view on this thread that treads upon a Christian's freedom to teach their child about their faith. Your words are ringing rather hollow and hypocritical...

What harm does having sex do to anyone?

None at all - within the God-ordained confines of a monogamous, life-long marriage.

Why not educate about contraception instead of saying it is fine as long as you have signed a peace of paper that says you are legally bound?

I don't educate in this way for the same reason you wouldn't educate in accord with Christian philosophy: you don't agree with it!

It makes no rational sense, so it is your opinion.

You're saying so doesn't make it so. I think your perspective is quite irrational, so your view must be totally opinion as well, then.

What your teacher was trying to do is to get you to think for yourself, decide for yourself if you think what they were doing in the book was right or wrong.

No, he was promoting a worldview very different from the one my parent's had taught me. Our investigation into the novel was not a neutral one.

[FONT="]Unfortunately you had already learnt the Christian way of thinking instead of taking a rational, unbiased approach.[/FONT]

There is no such thing as an unbiased approach!

[FONT="]Why not just present a theory to children, give them the facts and let them decide? What is so wrong with that?[/FONT]

For the very reason you cited: They lack the capacity to maturely decide what to believe.

Selah.

 

[Catherineanne]

Iwould be interested to hear what justifications you have. Please bear in mind that I have predicted many of your replies so will likely ignore the obvious/silly ones.

Thanks

James

Being a parent brings great responsibility with it, but one of those responsibilities is not to placate anyone who happens to disagree with our opinions on any point whatever.

My daughter was baptised at 6 months old. She is now 18 and she shares my faith or, more accurately, she has a faith of her own which is personal to her, and meaningful to her. I see nothing wrong with that, and I certainly don't have to justify it.

 

[Catherineanne]

haha I wouldn't say I was at all, I literally watched my mother throw up blood die when I was 6 and I have been oddly numb since to be honest. Actually I have had a pretty miserable life, everything seems to go wrong for me. Emotions don't come naturally to me anymore, I try to be a good person though, but I have to think about how someone feels, I don't 'feel' empathy or sympathy...bit rubbish really...but life goes on. I must have been very young when I saw the said horror film

That oddly numb could be post traumatic stress disorder. I am not a doctor, but I have cptsd and this sounds very familiar. Life does indeed go on, but not life as other people experience it.

 

[Catherineanne]

All parents indoctrinate their children. That's part of what parenting is. Raising one's children and teaching them those things which are regarded as most important.

This is right. Children are brought up within a culture, and part of that culture is its faith. Other parts might include its political structure, its legal structure, its education system, its art and entertainment and its history. Familiarising a child with any of these could be considered indoctrination, but it would be rather foolish for any parent to leave knowledge of such cultural issues until a child is 18 or 21.

Choosing to bring a child up without a knowledge of their cultural heritage in relation to faith is not leaving that child free to decide for themselves. This choice is itself indoctrination.

There really is no getting away from this one.

 

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