Indoctrinating children

[Curious Atheist]

This subject really hits a nerve with me and I lost my temper when we touched on it in a different thread. It near stopped me from ever posting here again. I am sorry for the way I said it, but I can't take back the point I was making. So with a little help I shall try and keep this civil!

I think we need to try and agree on what counts on a personal opinion or fact. Many of you will claim categorically 100% that God is real and speaks to you inside your own head. However can we all agree that religion of any type fundamentally relies on faith? Isn’t the whole part of God being absent part of his wish for us to have faith in the end? So surely we can agree you cannot prove (or disprove which is an easier subject) the existence of God?

So what would the best way of finding your faith in God? Surely it is a personal decision based on how you view the world around you, deducing that the world isn’t an accident and the best answer to all of life’s questions is the existence of God. Perhaps you then start looking for God and find him everywhere, your personal experiences of prayer or otherwise make you more and more sure of his existence. At some point along the journey you learn to love God and wish to serve his message and are 100% convinced.

You can see I am playing devil’s advocate here and there is no need for an atheist example/debate.

So firstly is the above more or less OK? Of course it will differ for individuals but can we accept finding faith in God is a personal journey built on personal experiences and faith?

But when we bring children in to the equation I have a very deep moral objection to them being indoctrinated in to their parent’s faith. I see it as no different to a lover of tattoos getting their new born a dirty great skull tattooed across their chest. Nor any different to a gay couple trying to force their child to be gay, as an example that might get a stronger reaction from many of you (not that I have ever heard of this happening)!

My moral objection is that a child is unable to decide for themselves on any such example. A child has no concept of many of the important aspects that form a belief or opinion, they can’t say no to the tattoo nor have any reason to not believe what a parent tells them. We are hard-wired as children to believe anything we are told (evolutionary speaking) as you can see with Santa and the tooth fairy. More importantly is exactly what a child is being told, that they will burn in hell for not following the rules that YOU have chosen to follow. You may see it as protection, but the cruelty imposed on a child who fears hell is child abuse and one of the worst in my opinion, as it will rule their whole lives.
For example I am quite terrified of spiders as are many of us. But (in the UK at least) spiders are entirely harmless and it is a completely irrational fear that I learnt from seeing an adult fear spiders as a child (the only way arachnophobia is passed on). I know this but the fear is still very real to me. There is a rather heart-wrenching article I will try and find of an ex-catholic atheist who still fears hell and has nightmares decades after leaving the church.

I know many will argue that it is just a different opinion to what is taught in schools. But you see, in school we are taught to read and write, how to use numbers in maths and how the world actually works. We can safely teach a child a triangle has three squares or that 1 part hydrogen and 2 parts oxygen creates water, because we know this. Likewise we know evolution is true yet it isn’t universally taught in America due to the same superstitions. Imagine the outrage if teachers started teaching communism as the correct way to think, or my previous point if a Muslim teacher taught the Koran as fact. Please consider these last two points before dismissing them, really try and imagine how you would feel and you will probably understand why I am so outraged by it too.

The way we are taught to think as a child is extremely important. This is key, as really all a child needs is to be taught how to think and not what. Also to get to my first point, isn’t it better to find your own faith rather than being told what to think too young? Wouldn’t Jesus prefer for people to look for him? Isn’t that a purer form of faith and wouldn’t Jesus want it that way, to go on your own journey to the truth?

I would be interested to hear what justifications you have. Please bear in mind that I have predicted many of your replies so will likely ignore the obvious/silly ones.

Thanks

James

 

[bling]

I fully agree it is a personal decision.

We do not make this decision for our children.

They need to truth, honest answers, and not a “belief” in Santa Clause.

The problem I have is with this idea: “At some point along the journey you learn to love God and wish to serve his message and are 100% convinced.”

All we should be doing is providing the best example we can of what God/Christ is truly like. God/Christ does not “force” their will against the will of a mature adult human and we should not either unless it hurts others.

We are trying to get our children to the point of making an informed (correct) decision that will be truly their decision.

You do not “learn” to Love God. This “Love” is way beyond human ability to develop and can only be accepted as a gift of charity. We do not “serve his message”, we allow Christ’s Spirit (a living being) to work through us unquenched. The “100% convinced” is watching in amazement all the Spirit can do through us and that Spirit becomes our guarantee.

We show and extend true Godly type Love to our children, so when they do rebel they will seek the advantages of that Love over the perceived pleasures of sin that will burden them.

 

[elman]

But when we bring children in to the equation I have a very deep moral objection to them being indoctrinated in to their parent’s faith.
James

Do you admit that one cannot know there is no God and therefore a belief that there is no God is a belief--faith? Are you in favour of indoctrinating your child in that faith? There was a young man in California that was raised by someone with your ideas who refused to try to influence his son in any manner of faith. The boy got involved with Muslims and was captured on the battlefield by US troops. I personally find that father of that boy to have not done his duty and helped the boy in discerning the problems of the radical muslim beliefs. Yes it is our responsbibility to teach our children to think for themselves, but it is not our responsibllity to abandon them to anything they might fall into at a vulnerable age.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Do you admit that one cannot know there is no God and therefore a belief that there is no God is a belief--faith? Are you in favour of indoctrinating your child in that faith? There was a young man in California that was raised by someone with your ideas who refused to try to influence his son in any manner of faith. The boy got involved with Muslims and was captured on the battlefield by US troops. I personally find that father of that boy to have not done his duty and helped the boy in discerning the problems of the radical muslim beliefs. Yes it is our responsbibility to teach our children to think for themselves, but it is not our responsibllity to abandon them to anything they might fall into at a vulnerable age.

Atheism isn't a faith, choosing not to believe in something isn't a religion. If I said there is a unicorn outside, it isn't faith that tells you there is not. You cannot prove it isn't there, it could be invisible to anyone who doesn't already believe it is there.
I am not in favour of parents forcing their opinions on any child, if I had a child they would most likely learn about the bible in school anyway so it is a moot point, but I wouldn't preach my own opinion as fact. I am not saying children shouldn't learn about the bible, they should have it presented to them as a choice that some people make, not as hard fact. It is as simple as saying 'Christians believe Jesus was the son of God' instead of 'Jesus WAS the son of God'.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Your story about the muslim could go either way. A muslim family may have let their child think for itself and could have mixed with fundamentalist Christians and been arrested for blowing up abortion clinics.

Would you say anyone who isn't brought up with faith is destined to become a fundamenatlist? I would argue the exact opposite, those brought up without religions are more likely to grow up as an atheist and never justify their actions using God.

 

[elman]

Atheism isn't a faith, choosing not to believe in something isn't a religion. If I said there is a unicorn outside, it isn't faith that tells you there is not. You cannot prove it isn't there, it could be invisible to anyone who doesn't already believe it is there.
.

Atheism is a belief. Anything you believe that cannot be proven as fact is a belief. Unicorns have nothing to do with that fact. One can believe we exist for no reason at all or for some reason we do not know. Both positions are not provable and either is faith or belief, not fact.

 

[ViaCrucis]

All parents indoctrinate their children. That's part of what parenting is. Raising one's children and teaching them those things which are regarded as most important.

Belief in the racial equality of all human beings is something I'd hope most non-religious parents would indoctrinate their children with.

Belief in gender equality, in the social equality of people of different social classes. Teaching children to be respectful, kind, humane.

Belief in the goodness of humanity and that people are of value and not to be exploited, manipulated or taken advantage of.

These should all be personal choices people make as they come of age, but that doesn't mean a parent simply says nothing on the issue. That's not parenting.

A parent is a human being who has responsibility over the upbringing of a child, investing into that child all of the values and convictions which are regarded as important--for religious parents that means investing the values and convictions of that religion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[elman]

Your story about the muslim could go either way. A muslim family may have let their child think for itself and could have mixed with fundamentalist Christians and been arrested for blowing up abortion clinics.

Would you say anyone who isn't brought up with faith is destined to become a fundamenatlist? I would argue the exact opposite, those brought up without religions are more likely to grow up as an atheist and never justify their actions using God.

I think your job as a father is to discuss things with your children and teach them to think for themselves, not impose your ideas on them. The responsibility of a father is not accomplished by abandoning them to what ever group of idiots they start to run with. The alternatives are not between funamentalist and atheists. I am neither.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Is it ok to indoctrinate children? NO

Is it ok to teach them the best you can as a parent?
YES. I do it in the natural with school, I will do it here as well

Sorry you have confused me a bit…can you clarify if you teach creationism/faith as fact? Teaching good morals and ethics is completely separate to teaching faith.

If I were to tell you a bee sting hurt, could you confirm it without experiencing the sting first hand? No, you could not. In order to confirm this you must be stung by a bee. Your works to lead to that sting will provide you with the confirmation. Now I didn’t want to find out if a bee sting hurt on purpose, but what I did the day I was stung brought me to this confirmation, and indeed it did hurt!

What do you mean by this? Do you know if the box jellyfish can sting? Care to give it a try? I don’t want to be too pedantic but if you want to know how deadly/painful a venom or poison is you can test it in a lab. Otherwise, if I was a child I would believe you even if you told me a bee sting made me grow wings and a tail, I could test it and find out you were wrong though. If you told me there is an invisible man watching me, who cannot be detected but will condemn me to hell for not believing in him, what chance do I have of proving you wrong? This is my point, so far I don’t think you have really answered it…I would never stop believing unless the way I rationalised my reality was altered, but it is often too late by then. So what I am arguing as a better solution all round is to teach children how to reason for themselves and unless Christianity is groundless then surely you aren’t worried they won’t convert?

 

[Curious Atheist]

All parents indoctrinate their children. That's part of what parenting is. Raising one's children and teaching them those things which are regarded as most important.

Belief in the racial equality of all human beings is something I'd hope most non-religious parents would indoctrinate their children with.

Belief in gender equality, in the social equality of people of different social classes. Teaching children to be respectful, kind, humane.

Belief in the goodness of humanity and that people are of value and not to be exploited, manipulated or taken advantage of.

These should all be personal choices people make as they come of age, but that doesn't mean a parent simply says nothing on the issue. That's not parenting.

A parent is a human being who has responsibility over the upbringing of a child, investing into that child all of the values and convictions which are regarded as important--for religious parents that means investing the values and convictions of that religion.

-CryptoLutheran

Is it OK if a neo-nazi told their child to hate all non-whites?

But I am afraid you have missed the point, perhaps consider how you would teach each of your points. You teach a child to be treat others as they would like to be treated and say 'how would you feel if someone did that to you'. This helps create empathy for other people. This has nothing to do with faith or religion.

What I am referring to is opinion presented as fact, indocrination means ignoring other opinions. Teach a child the bible if you wish, but will you teach them the koran or other holy books? I doubt it, that is what indoctrination is.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Atheism is a belief. Anything you believe that cannot be proven as fact is a belief. Unicorns have nothing to do with that fact. One can believe we exist for no reason at all or for some reason we do not know. Both positions are not provable and either is faith or belief, not fact.

You really don't see my point of view do you? By definition, there is no such thing as an atheist. We are all technically atheists, you just believe in one more God than me. What I mean is, do we need a label to describe people do don't believe in an infinite impossibilities? Are you an atheist because you don't believe the world is flat?
Your example of if we are here for a reason, I would say the default is 'I don't know', an example of faith would be 'Yes, our reason is to serve God'....BIG difference

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is it OK if a neo-nazi told their child to hate all non-whites?

But I am afraid you have missed the point, perhaps consider how you would teach each of your points. You teach a child to be treat others as they would like to be treated and say 'how would you feel if someone did that to you'. This helps create empathy for other people. This has nothing to do with faith or religion.

What I am referring to is opinion presented as fact, indocrination means ignoring other opinions. Teach a child the bible if you wish, but will you teach them the koran or other holy books? I doubt it, that is what indoctrination is.

I would prefer a neo-nazi not to tell their children to be rotten little racists. I would also prefer a neo-nazi not to be a rotten little racist. But, in point of fact, that will probably be the case because a parent instills in a child the values and beliefs the parent believes is right. I can fully disagree on the virtue and value of certain beliefs, that doesn't change the fact of what a parent is going to do.

You wrote this:

"You teach a child to be treat others as they would like to be treated and say 'how would you feel if someone did that to you'. This helps create empathy for other people. This has nothing to do with faith or religion."

I agree that it's not necessarily religious. But it's still indoctrination. Who are you to say that empathy for other people is right, who are you to indoctrinate a child with this belief system? You're the parent. You believe that empathy for other people is important, it is a value you hold dear and thus want it instilled into your child's character.

I very much doubt you're going to say, "Well Jimmy, we've been teaching you the importance of being kind to others, but that's not the only possible path one can take in life."

I take it as a given that on average most religious parents raise their children into their faith, and that the child as he or she grows older will become more exposed to other beliefs and ideas. And as that child matures will start making more informed decisions and choices about what she or he believes.

My own parents, as I got older, encouraged me to form my own convictions, my own beliefs as I began to ask questions and begin to study religious matters on my own. But that didn't stop them from taking me to church when I was little, from teaching me Bible stories, from teaching me matters and ideas they considered important, ranging from treat all people with kindness and equality to loving God.

I just don't see the reason to have a moral outrage against parents doing this sort of thing. All parents, who love their children, do this. Whether it is religious indoctrination, ethical indoctrination, or ideological indoctrination. There is no objectively neutral ground in all this, all parents who want to see their children grow up healthy raise their kids and instill into them all those things they believe are most important. Religious parents and non-religious parents alike.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[HaveHope]

So basically you're saying that the "default setting" in humans is atheism, and it bothers you that people are teaching their children to not be atheists. But since you won't admit that atheism is itself a belief (an opinion, not a fact), then you can't see that what you're suggesting --when you say that religion should be presented to children as simply a choice that some people make-- is, in fact, indoctrinating children to be atheists. It strikes me as hypocritical.

 

[AlexBP]

My moral objection is that a child is unable to decide for themselves on any such example. A child has no concept of many of the important aspects that form a belief or opinion, they can’t say no to the tattoo nor have any reason to not believe what a parent tells them. We are hard-wired as children to believe anything we are told (evolutionary speaking) as you can see with Santa and the tooth fairy.

We are not "hard-wired evolutionarily speaking" to believe or disbelieve or think in any way. The only properties of humanity that evolution affected was our genome. Our genes determine physical characteristics such as height, eye color, earlobe shape, and so forth. Genes have no effect on what we believe and prefer or on how we think. Or at least, to be precise, scientific studies have not located a single gene that does affect these things.

If I teach my children about Christianity, they will have the choice whether to accept it or not. As they grow up, they will have a chance to study other religions and non-religious viewpoints and decide which one they want to adhere to.

There is a rather heart-wrenching article I will try and find of an ex-catholic atheist who still fears hell and has nightmares decades after leaving the church.

In response to your anecdotal evidence about the suffering undergone by one person raised as a Catholic, I could offer numerous anecdotes about the suffering undergone by people raised as atheists. I would know; I was one such sufferer during my childhood, teen, and college years. If, on the other hand, we wanted to move beyond anecdotal evidence to real data, well I think I've already mentioned this article to you in an earlier thread:

Regenrus, Mark D. Religion and Positive Adolescent Outcomes: A Review of Research and Theory, Review of Religious Research, Vol. 44, Num 4, June 2003. pages 394-413

From the abstract:

I review recent research published in academic journals concerning religious influence on several positive outcomes during adolescence: physical and emotional health, education, volunteering, political involvement, and family well-being. The high-quality studies that do exist point to modest positive influences of religious involvement.
​

So there's actual evidence, rather than just anecdotes, showing that religious is good for a child's mental health along with education and many other things.

I know many will argue that it is just a different opinion to what is taught in schools. But you see, in school we are taught to read and write, how to use numbers in maths and how the world actually works. We can safely teach a child a triangle has three squares or that 1 part hydrogen and 2 parts oxygen creates water, because we know this. Likewise we know evolution is true yet it isn’t universally taught in America due to the same superstitions.

You say that it's wrong to teach children Christianity. If I looked to the loony left, I could easily find plenty of people who think it's wrong to teach children reading, writing, and math. If I take you seriously, why shouldn't I take them seriously as well?

Imagine the outrage if teachers started teaching communism as the correct way to think, or my previous point if a Muslim teacher taught the Koran as fact. Please consider these last two points before dismissing them, really try and imagine how you would feel and you will probably understand why I am so outraged by it too.

Teachers in communist countries teach communism as the correct way to think. Teachers in Muslim countries, or Muslim schools in western countries, teach the Koran as fact. I've never encountered anyone who's outraged about either fact. I am not outraged about either fact. You atheists seem to be engaged in highly selective outrage at Christians who educate our children but not at anyone else who educates their children.

The way we are taught to think as a child is extremely important. This is key, as really all a child needs is to be taught how to think and not what. Also to get to my first point, isn’t it better to find your own faith rather than being told what to think too young? Wouldn’t Jesus prefer for people to look for him? Isn’t that a purer form of faith and wouldn’t Jesus want it that way, to go on your own journey to the truth?

Others have already provided several responses to this but I'll add one more. You suggest that I should feel okay letting my children have a long dalliance with beliefs systems other than Christianity because once they've considered the evidence, they'll return to Christianity. Perhaps they would; however, I'd rather they not have the dalliance at all because they might get mixed up with hard drinking, drugs, easy sex, suicide, or other things that can cause death or major harm.

I would be interested to hear what justifications you have.

You're outraged at how I plan to raise my children. As I said last time, I don't care if you're outraged. Here in the United States we still have the freedom to raise our children as we please, so your opinion of my decisions does not matter. You responded by bragging about how in Britain the government has taken away some freedom from parents, but the USA is not subject to British law. We kicked you guys out in 1783.

 

[Sketcher]

But when we bring children in to the equation I have a very deep moral objection to them being indoctrinated in to their parent’s faith. I see it as no different to a lover of tattoos getting their new born a dirty great skull tattooed across their chest. Nor any different to a gay couple trying to force their child to be gay, as an example that might get a stronger reaction from many of you (not that I have ever heard of this happening)!

My moral objection is that a child is unable to decide for themselves on any such example. A child has no concept of many of the important aspects that form a belief or opinion, they can’t say no to the tattoo nor have any reason to not believe what a parent tells them. We are hard-wired as children to believe anything we are told (evolutionary speaking) as you can see with Santa and the tooth fairy. More importantly is exactly what a child is being told, that they will burn in hell for not following the rules that YOU have chosen to follow. You may see it as protection, but the cruelty imposed on a child who fears hell is child abuse and one of the worst in my opinion, as it will rule their whole lives.

If telling children about Hell is child abuse, how do you account for the millions upon millions of well-adjusted Christians who were raised in the faith and knew about Hell?

I know many will argue that it is just a different opinion to what is taught in schools. But you see, in school we are taught to read and write, how to use numbers in maths and how the world actually works. We can safely teach a child a triangle has three squares or that 1 part hydrogen and 2 parts oxygen creates water, because we know this. Likewise we know evolution is true yet it isn’t universally taught in America due to the same superstitions. Imagine the outrage if teachers started teaching communism as the correct way to think, or my previous point if a Muslim teacher taught the Koran as fact. Please consider these last two points before dismissing them, really try and imagine how you would feel and you will probably understand why I am so outraged by it too.

In public schools, teachers aren't allowed to say that any holy book is the right way. But they are pushed to teach certain philosophical opinions to social engineer the kids. Funny how it's only "indoctrination" to people who disagree with it, no matter what it is.

The way we are taught to think as a child is extremely important. This is key, as really all a child needs is to be taught how to think and not what. Also to get to my first point, isn’t it better to find your own faith rather than being told what to think too young? Wouldn’t Jesus prefer for people to look for him? Isn’t that a purer form of faith and wouldn’t Jesus want it that way, to go on your own journey to the truth?

We all get that in there one way or another. But consider this: When I was growing up, I had a friend who was raised in a non-religious household. He held it against his parents for some time because they never taught him how to so much as pray. Christianity is good, holding it out from people who would otherwise receive it is a terrible thing to do.

 

[aiki]

I think we need to try and agree on what counts on a personal opinion or fact. Many of you will claim categorically 100% that God is real and speaks to you inside your own head. However can we all agree that religion of any type fundamentally relies on faith?

This isn't true only of religion, but of science as well. The whole realm of science rests upon a set of unproveable philosophical presuppositions, or brute facts, that must be assumed, on faith, to be true. The statement, "Only what can be empirically tested and verified is true" is self-refuting since the statement itself cannot be empirically verified. There are other spheres of knowledge and inquiry into our world and universe that are just as important and reasonable as the scientific one.

The Christian faith, at least, does have strong philosophical, historical and even scientific evidence in support of its claims of God's existence. It doesn't rely solely upon blind faith as some assert.

So surely we can agree you cannot prove (or disprove which is an easier subject) the existence of God?

See the Kalam Cosmological Argument or Liebniz's Argument from Contingency.

So firstly is the above more or less OK? Of course it will differ for individuals but can we accept finding faith in God is a personal journey built on personal experiences and faith?

Not entirely, no.

But when we bring children in to the equation I have a very deep moral objection to them being indoctrinated in to their parent’s faith. I see it as no different to a lover of tattoos getting their new born a dirty great skull tattooed across their chest.

False analogy. While it is possible to tattoo a newborn infant, it is not possible to indoctrinate one.

Nor any different to a gay couple trying to force their child to be gay, as an example that might get a stronger reaction from many of you (not that I have ever heard of this happening)!

Are you against homosexuals indoctrinating their adopted children into a homosexual lifestyle?

My moral objection is that a child is unable to decide for themselves on any such example.

The fact is, the average child growing up in North America is constantly and powerfully bombarded with anti-Christian philosophy in the media, public education, t.v. and popular entertainment. The culture itself is a powerful indoctrinating agency in the life of every individual growing up in that culture. Does the child get to choose to be indoctrinated this way? Of course not! Do you, then, object to this cultural indoctrination of children? Or is your objection a selective one?

A child has no concept of many of the important aspects that form a belief or opinion, they can’t say no to the tattoo nor have any reason to not believe what a parent tells them.

Or a teacher, or favorite t.v. character, or popular entertainer, or friends.

We are hard-wired as children to believe anything we are told (evolutionary speaking) as you can see with Santa and the tooth fairy. More importantly is exactly what a child is being told, that they will burn in hell for not following the rules that YOU have chosen to follow.

Strawman Argument.

You may see it as protection, but the cruelty imposed on a child who fears hell is child abuse and one of the worst in my opinion, as it will rule their whole lives.

Strawman Argument.

For example I am quite terrified of spiders as are many of us. But (in the UK at least) spiders are entirely harmless and it is a completely irrational fear that I learnt from seeing an adult fear spiders as a child (the only way arachnophobia is passed on). I know this but the fear is still very real to me. There is a rather heart-wrenching article I will try and find of an ex-catholic atheist who still fears hell and has nightmares decades after leaving the church.

My parents taught me about Hell but also about the love, grace and mercy of God. They taught me sin was bad and righteousness was good. They taught me that God is a Heavenly Father to His children and Christ a Good Shepherd who loves his sheep. Hell is not the whole of Christian doctrine as you seem to want to make it out to be here. In fact, it is a very small part of it.

I know many will argue that it is just a different opinion to what is taught in schools. But you see, in school we are taught to read and write, how to use numbers in maths and how the world actually works. We can safely teach a child a triangle has three squares or that 1 part hydrogen and 2 parts oxygen creates water, because we know this. Likewise we know evolution is true yet it isn’t universally taught in America due to the same superstitions. Imagine the outrage if teachers started teaching communism as the correct way to think, or my previous point if a Muslim teacher taught the Koran as fact. Please consider these last two points before dismissing them, really try and imagine how you would feel and you will probably understand why I am so outraged by it too.

In public schools and many private ones as well children are inculcated into a secular, naturalistic, and relativistic worldview. Anyone who thinks public schools don't have a philosophical agenda is profoundly out of touch with reality. I remember my high school English classes where we weren't taught grammar, or how to properly frame a paragraph, but instead were encouraged to examine and discuss the sexual antics of characters in the books we were forced to read. And the characters were never condemned for their promiscuity in the books we read or in the class discussions. The absence of condemnation was, essentially, tantamount to approval. This sort of thing is even worse now twenty-plus years after my high school days. THe fact is, somebody's worldview is going to be put forward to our children. It is impossible that it could be otherwise. Why should I let a worldview I totally disagree with shape the thinking and values of my child?

The way we are taught to think as a child is extremely important. This is key, as really all a child needs is to be taught how to think and not what.

Being taught how to think and being taught what to think go hand in hand. It is unavoidable that in teaching a child how to think one also teaches them what to think. If I say to Johnny, "A bird cannot be both totally black and totally white at the same time and in the same way," I am steering the child away from relativism toward a philosophy that is more rooted in principles of logic.

Selah.

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot]You teach a child to be treat others as they would like to be treated and say 'how would you feel if someone did that to you'. This helps create empathy for other people. This has nothing to do with faith or religion."

I agree that it's not necessarily religious. But it's still indoctrination. Who are you to say that empathy for other people is right, who are you to indoctrinate a child with this belief system? You're the parent. You believe that empathy for other people is important, it is a value you hold dear and thus want it instilled into your child's character. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You are quite wrong, this is not indoctrination. Saying ‘how would you feel if’ is allowing the child to think for themselves. They aren’t being told ‘it is wrong to do xxx’. In the first example they can think about it and come to any conclusion that they wish, so maybe they will form the opinion that empathy isn’t a good thing. Most do, society wouldn’t work otherwise.


I take it as a given that on average most religious parents raise their children into their faith, and that the child as he or she grows older will become more exposed to other beliefs and ideas. And as that child matures will start making more informed decisions and choices about what she or he believes. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Why not let them make an informed decision from the start? My point is that a child who is taught something as fact as a child has a slimmer chance of ever changing that opinion, see my spider example.

My own parents, as I got older, encouraged me to form my own convictions, my own beliefs as I began to ask questions and begin to study religious matters on my own. But that didn't stop them from taking me to church when I was little, from teaching me Bible stories, from teaching me matters and ideas they considered important, ranging from treat all people with kindness and equality to loving God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Amazing how you are now a Christian isn’t it?

I just don't see the reason to have a moral outrage against parents doing this sort of thing. All parents, who love their children, do this. Whether it is religious indoctrination, ethical indoctrination, or ideological indoctrination. There is no objectively neutral ground in all this, all parents who want to see their children grow up healthy raise their kids and instill into them all those things they believe are most important. Religious parents and non-religious parents alike.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of course there are many factors that form opinion, tv, friends etc which are inevitable even with the best intentions. However, I am not arguing not to teach children about the bible or Koran or likewise, just that it should be presented as one of many different opinions and all the facts can be presented for each. Christianity is based on faith, teaching a child that the world is less than 10k years old or that every species in the world once fitted on an arc and all the genetic diversity we see stems from only two of each as hard fact is wrong. When there is clear evidence something is false and requires faith it is a personal choice to believe it. You may cry ‘oh but that’s just creationists!’, you are right….it is quite different to say a man can come back from the dead and walk on water, my example is silly.[/FONT]

 

[Curious Atheist]

So basically you're saying that the "default setting" in humans is atheism, and it bothers you that people are teaching their children to not be atheists. But since you won't admit that atheism is itself a belief (an opinion, not a fact), then you can't see that what you're suggesting --when you say that religion should be presented to children as simply a choice that some people make-- is, in fact, indoctrinating children to be atheists. It strikes me as hypocritical.

I think the default to any queston you don't understand or have experience with is 'I don't know'. Children therefore have a lot of questions, I am arguing that they get an even chance to make up their own minds. Atheism is not a faith in any way, it is the rejection of faith. If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease! (not my quote)

 

[Incariol]

I am arguing that they get an even chance to make up their own minds.

Fair enough, a lot of us would think that is silly. Children don't get to make up their minds in regards to most things, so it is silly to think they should in a matter as important as this.

Sent from my iPod touch using Forum Runner

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot]If I teach my children about Christianity, they will have the choice whether to accept it or not. As they grow up, they will have a chance to study other religions and non-religious viewpoints and decide which one they want to adhere to.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isn’t that a bit backwards? Why can’t they be exposed to all ideas first, then decide which is right later on? Why do they need to be Christian then have a difficult journey leaving it behind?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is a rather heart-wrenching article I will try and find of an ex-catholic atheist who still fears hell and has nightmares decades after leaving the church.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In response to your anecdotal evidence about the suffering undergone by one person raised as a Catholic, I could offer numerous anecdotes about the suffering undergone by people raised as atheists. I would know; I was one such sufferer during my childhood, teen, and college years. If, on the other hand, we wanted to move beyond anecdotal evidence to real data, well I think I've already mentioned this article to you in an earlier thread:

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So there's actual evidence, rather than just anecdotes, showing that religious is good for a child's mental health along with education and many other things.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have never read anything that suggests this, but if we just accept it as true then why your religion? Perhaps if you present all the information your child will decide for themselves to be Christian, I am arguing against controlling that decision by presenting Christianity as fact. If they decide against it, so be it as children don’t always listen and are entitled to make mistakes. For example, you can teach them not to drink alcohol before they are 18 (or 21 in USA), but most will anyway and may well make poor choices in friends. It is part of life and it is often the case that we need to make mistakes in order to learn and form our personality. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You say that it's wrong to teach children Christianity. If I looked to the loony left, I could easily find plenty of people who think it's wrong to teach children reading, writing, and math. If I take you seriously, why shouldn't I take them seriously as well?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sorry is this a serious question? I was hoping to have a proper discussion about this. I could turn it around and say teaching Christianity leads to fundamentalists murdering doctors, but that isn’t always true so I wouldn’t say it is. We do not need to use extremes to prove a point, I am only saying it is wrong to teach opinion as fact and depriving a child in forming their own opinions. Anyway it is religious beliefs that lead to such things, not rationality.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Teachers in communist countries teach communism as the correct way to think. Teachers in Muslim countries, or Muslim schools in western countries, teach the Koran as fact. I've never encountered anyone who's outraged about either fact. I am not outraged about either fact. You atheists seem to be engaged in highly selective outrage at Christians who educate our children but not at anyone else who educates their children.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Well, you have now encountered me on the internet at least. I am only using Christian indoctrination as this is a Christian forum, there is no prejudice intended so please don’t get defensive. My point is that there would be outrage if a teacher took it upon themselves in America (as an example) to teach the Koran. So why is this wrong, yet it is acceptable to preach a different opinion? There is never outrage against teaching maths or literature as it is universal. I wouldn’t teach a child communism is wrong, I would tell them about different types of government and that we live in a society of democracy. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Others have already provided several responses to this but I'll add one more. You suggest that I should feel okay letting my children have a long dalliance with beliefs systems other than Christianity because once they've considered the evidence, they'll return to Christianity. Perhaps they would; however, I'd rather they not have the dalliance at all because they might get mixed up with hard drinking, drugs, easy sex, suicide, or other things that can cause death or major harm.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sorry but your comment is ridiculous. Anyone who isn’t raised to believe Jesus was the son of God makes poor choices and commits suicide? Why would anyone commit suicide because they don’t have religon, what a bizarre way of thinking. I have to point out that even those who believe they will go to heaven are terrified of death. What do people do when they survive an accident? They often thank God for sparing them. Why thank someone from delaying your journey to heaven? But this is a side point, I really think you are very close minded to the idea of life without faith and forcing this on to children may be your right, but it doesn’t mean it is ‘right’[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You're outraged at how I plan to raise my children. As I said last time, I don't care if you're outraged. Here in the United States we still have the freedom to raise our children as we please, so your opinion of my decisions does not matter. You responded by bragging about how in Britain the government has taken away some freedom from parents, but the USA is not subject to British law. We kicked you guys out in 1783.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
Well, you cared enough to respond to my questions didn’t you? I am not arguing people shouldn’t be free to do as they please, I am arguing the exact opposite. Telling a child Christianity is fact is depriving them the freedom to make up their own mind. I don’t think I bragged about anything…just that schools are neutral where religion is concerned for good reason. Britain is possibly the most multi-cultural country in the world, teaching one religion would outrage another group. It is about mutual respect for fellow human beings, respecting each other’s right to personal choices and beliefs. Respecting a child’s right to their own opinion isn’t law, we have faith school’s but in the mainstream system we do not teach the Universe was created in 7 days, we teach what is scientifically provable (1+1=2).
Your last comment isn’t very Christian, I think you are quite a prejudiced person. I don’t mean that to be offensive, I think saying ‘you guys’ or ‘us’ creates a divide that really isn’t needed. Why can’t we all just get along like Jesus was trying to say? If you want to respond can you bear this in mind, I don’t want to have an argument.