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Indigenous Icons: Has Anyone Ever Come Across Any and Why are more not done?

Gxg (G²)

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On the issue of abstract thought, I do think it should be noted how odd it can seem whenever others within the Eastern world may say they have issue with abstract realities being portrayed by others within differing cultures. From what I can examine, it was already the case that the Eastern world used PLENTY of abstract presentations when it came to the beginnings of iconagraphy itself - with those symbols meaning something in the culture that Orthodox took it from and making it mean something else - with others in the culture/religion a symbol came from understanding it to mean one thing while others coming from that religion choosing to see the meaning of the symbol as having another impact.

Some of this was discussed elsewhere in relation to visual imagery, as seen here:

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Gxg (G²)

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If you go, would love to see some of the icons you are able to get from the area. Syriac Icons are unique among others and I need to get more of those - but Ethiopian Icons are right there as well...

I have been wanting to get this icon of late - as it's of the Syriac Church Fathers...



Here's another of the Nativity..and the last supper






And this one, as it concerns the illumination of Constantine and Helen:



The work from the the Rabbula Gospels - an illuminated Syriac book created in the 6th century and thought of as one of the earliest Christian Manuscripts - is priceless




I would also love to get a hold of the icons found in the Assyrian Church of the East as they are also challenging:

 
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Gxg (G²)

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G2, thanks again for that second post. Those are beautiful.
There's an Indonesian one I came across from OrthodoxMysteries that I greatly appreciated:



And within the Indian world, especially Indian Orthodox, the icons are also very beautiful. Some, in example, are icons from St. Gregorios Indian Orthodox Church, Punnamoodu, Charumoodu, Alappuzha District, Kerala, INDIA

 
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Gxg (G²)

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I think this would be an icon with an abstract form similar to the icon from Cameroon:


 
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MKJ

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I don't know - it seems to me that you are still separating the physical and the spirit here. I think icons are already trying to do what you are describing. Changing the ethnicity doesn't really make it more universal, it says that we have the universal without the particular instantiation.

If we wanted to show the logos artistically somehow, totally apart from any question about whether we should (I have no idea and hadn't really thought of it before) my intuition would be to go in a different direction entirely.

I find it hard to look at purposeful multicultural attempts to show Christ without thinking that many of them are done in a spirit that is either problematic in itself, or which could be for the viewer.

I don't think that is absolute as I said, I think within folk traditions it has a different significance, and there can be other contextual factors. I have a children's illustrated book of The Huron Carol, which like the song shows the nativity story in a pre-European contact Huron setting. The carol was written of course in their own language for people who had little reference to European or middle eastern settings, and the illustrations follow that way of telling the story. I think approach tells us something about the history of the spread of Christianity as much as it tells us about the nativity story, and that was the point of doing it that way.

I kind of don't care about what clothes people in icons and depictions wear, even if they are anachronistic, but i really couldn't say why.
 
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MKJ

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As far as postures - that is something to think about. I do tend though to want to avoid saying that cultural symbols can't be transformed or modified to have renewed or deeper meanings within a new context. That has happened in other Christian settings in the past, and we tend to take them for granted at times - though Christian fundamentalists often complain about them. If we really think that natural religion has in many cases pre-figured or anticipated its fulfillment, I think we need to be careful about rejecting its symbols and religious language out of hand. How much CHristian theological language is platonic?

Buddhismin particular is a really philosophically rich religion, and perhaps could offer a similar kind of scaffolding for Christianity in the far east that platonism did in the middle east and europe.
 
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Joseph Hazen

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I can agree with you to an extent, MKJ, but I think even things which are adopted need to have a...I'm not sure of the word I want, parallel? Corollary? The image of the good shepherd was co-opted because there is a link between what that image says and what we say about Christ. The image of Christ as King likewise conveys a similar meaning. I'm sure there are things in Buddhism that we could co-opt, but simply inserting Christ into the place of the Buddha isn't one of them; there's no parallel (at least in that image).
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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How about the idea that Buddha is Enlightened and the idea that Christ is the incarnation of Divine Wisdom?
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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For the record, I've read this post about eight times, and I really still can't put my finger on where I agree or disagree.

I really don't think I'm separating spirit and flesh too much, since I'm always very guarded against that, but maybe my presentation of Leontius was off. And I certainly wouldn't ever want to depict the pre-incarnate Logos or the Logos apart from his humanity.

Maybe you're talking more about the Thai and Japanese and Chinese images, which represent Christ and Mary as ethnically Asian, where I'm talking more about the image from Cameroon, which is more abstract and isn't so much about ethnicity than about culture, so I'm more comfortable with it.

I think my willingness to depict Jesus in ways that are more culturally diverse (especially when abstract, but even ethnically diverse on occasion) goes hand in hand with the more general understanding that Christology is much more than historical Jesus studies. There's something to the way Christology interacts with cultures in a two thousand year tradition of reflection that goes beyond (but is not divorced from) the historical Jesus. Which goes by to why, when we're doing more realistic art (just as when we're doing historical criticism) I'm more likely to be against multi-cultural representations of Jesus and to insist that we depict him as a Jew, whereas when we're doing more abstract art and especially Christian iconography (just as when we're doing theology and philosophy) I'm likely to be more lenient and even embrace diverse cultural and perhaps even ethnic representations of Jesus.
 
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MKJ

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I don't know that I can say that any of those two depictions was a problem for me - I have no idea about who made them, or when, so they have no larger context for me.

I understand what you are saying though. I think this is perhaps why I don't care so much about anachronistic or otherwise "wrong" clothing, even if the artist realizes they are not correct. You see similar things in landscapes surrouning pictures of biblical scenes, or buildings, or even ships in depictions of the ark - most of the time they are probably unlikely or inappropriate, but that isn't really important. A more abstract depiction i agree elevates the depiction from simply being a kind of empirical description to point at the spiritual reality, but I think it is important to make sure the particular nature of the incarnation is still clearly expressed.
 
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Joseph Hazen

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How about the idea that Buddha is Enlightened and the idea that Christ is the incarnation of Divine Wisdom?

What Buddhists mean by Enlightenment and what Christians mean by Wisdom (let alone Christ as Wisdom) are very, very different. If anything you've made my point for me.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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How about the idea that Buddha is Enlightened and the idea that Christ is the incarnation of Divine Wisdom?
There are actually similar works within the world of Orthodoxy that have discussed the issue in-depth when it comes to the concept of Christ pre-figuring concepts within world religions (Buddhism included). Partial truth, if one wishes to call it such, was given as a foreshadow of what was to come later...or what had already come (as Islam, in example, came after the Church began) and yet had not yet been fully understood by the people that hadn't encountered it yet. If aware of something known as Ancient Faith Radio, they did a series on the issue of how in some cultures, it seems that they were already being prepared for the presentation of the Gospel…with it being established that GOD was at work in all cultures far before any others with revelation of what the Hebrews had came around. The radio brodcast from "Ancient Faith Radio" was on a book entitled “Christ the Eternal Tao”…and for more info, one can go online/look up "Christ the Eternal Tao - Ancient Faith Radio". I thought it was interesting to see from an Eastern Christian perspective how the Tao Te Ching is presented as an imperfect, incomplete foreshadowing of what would later be revealed by Christ. I so appreciated how Hieromonk Damascene explains the Orthodox Christian view of ancient religions evident in Christ the Eternal Tao and in his approach to the Tao Teh Ching:



For an excellent review on the issue, one can go to Book Review: Christ the Eternal Tao - Sacred Connections


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yf0Z_9QLpc


I greatly appreciate the ways that the author (who considered himself a Buddhist, specifically, in the Zen tradition) noted in Christ the Eternal Tao how Lao Tzu’s Tao Teh Ching as a foreshadowing of what would be revealed by Christ, and Lao Tzu himself as a Far-Eastern prophet of the Incarnate God.

And likewise, when it comes to Buddhism, there are an extensive amount of ways in which Christ is truly the true definition of what it means to be enlightened.

And in many presentations, if done right, it can truly glorify the Lord.

In one example, as it concerns Jesus being the Light of the world:



 
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Gxg (G²)

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The abstract really offers more in the way of Christian Iconography to show the diverse cultural realities rather than the realistic on many differing levels....

  1. Indigenous Jesus: Tibetan Thangka Paintings









One that has always stood out to me is the Aboriginal presentation of the Hands of God blessing mankind with the Savior (Jesus) - "the Great Ancestor's omnipresent hands... presenting the divine gift to Aboriginal" :


And for another, here's the Ugandan Martyrs Altar and others (from Kenyan culture) of Christ going through the stations of the cross..


There's this from Diwali



There's also the one by the Guatamala painting that was noteworthy - of the Last Supper..




And of course, with Good Friday and the Crown of Thorns




 
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MKJ

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What Buddhists mean by Enlightenment and what Christians mean by Wisdom (let alone Christ as Wisdom) are very, very different. If anything you've made my point for me.

I don't really think it is that simple though. It never has been precisely the same when Christians have taken ideas or language or images from other artistic or philosophic traditions, sometimes they have been outright contradictory in some ways, or the sense of the thing has been changed in a significant way.

It's important that depictions or language says what it means, on the other hand, they don't and I think can't stand alone, there is teaching around such things.

The argument that says we can't use anything that might be taken the wrong way or misunderstood is one that you hear sometimes from modern iconoclasts, for example - they worry that especially in cultures that are pantheistic or polytheistic, using images will lead to errors that mimic those incorrect teachings. And that is probably true, they could if there was no teaching about what the images are meant to tell us. But I don't think we would see it as a generally good idea to do away with images on that basis, we would just have to be extra careful to say what they mean, especially to those who are outside the Church and may have drawn incorrect conclusions.
 
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Joseph Hazen

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Just because another piece of art is bad theology doesn't make it ok for the original piece. I would hardly call that an icon anyway. I suppose if one thinks of an icon as just a piece of art than all kinds of religious art can be odd icons, but to me just because it has Jesus in it does not make it an icon.

The iconographic tradition, at this point, of Christ and the holocaust is this, which actually makes theological statements and abides by iconographic tradition:



That's another thing I would say about 'indiginous icons' is they might be able to veer from the tradition a little, but they really ought to at least be rooted in it. Otherwise it is not a continuation of the Christian tradition, but something new, and that should never be done.
 
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Joseph Hazen

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I don't really think it is that simple though...
It's important that depictions or language says what it means, on the other hand, they don't and I think can't stand alone, there is teaching around such things.

Perhaps. More and more I'm coming to think however that this thread has some sort of idea that any picture of Jesus can be called an 'icon' and so I think its time I took my leave. Orthodoxy vs. other Christians seem to mean something entirely different by the idea of 'icon' and have a different understanding of it's role, purpose, and use. For Orthodox there are rules about iconography, and so much of what y'all are talking about, from the Orthodox perspective, would not even enter the conversation.

I'll leave you to it, sorry for butting in.
 
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MKJ

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I don't think you are butting in. But people from different traditions are talking, so they are not always using the language the same way. But that is not in itself a bad thing, it just requires being clear when you think there is a difference.

I would say that the discussion here includes a few types of depictions, and people quite reasonably might argue that it is important to be more strict or careful for some than for others.

I would take the position that in practice, there are probably three levels. What you would call an icon, which has a very specific purpose and role. Artistic works that are used in the church in other ways - to tell a story visually, for teaching purposes, whatever, and then Christian art outside the church setting which could have all kinds of different purposes including expressing subjective ideas of individuals about what is being depicted.

You could see parallels I think to different kinds of written material that are used or found within the Christian community, from Scripture to the liturgy to documents of the church to writings of saints to personal reflections.

I am not convinced that what we are talking about here, as far as adopting a style or way of depicting from another culture where the church begins to exist, could really be described as as a new thing. I don't want to say that such an instance is simply scrolling back time as if none of the intervening history had never happened, but on the other hand, people have always responded through their own forms, be it language or poetry or art - that isn't new, its just nature. For the people involved it is always new, whether it is in the 21st or 17th or 2nd century. But if it happened in the second century, how is it new if it happens the same way now? To me this is like those who claim you cannot translate the liturgy out of Latin, because one particular cultural response and circumstance has determined for all time what the appropriate expression must be, or al monks must shave their heads a particular way.

Art is a language, and I think should fundamentally e treated like one. Part of that is recognizing that a particular artistic tradition isn't somehow better or more primary than another, any more than we would say that you are a better off as a Christian Christian to speak Gaelic rather than Swahili.
 
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Joseph Hazen

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I said butting in because it felt like (and not in a bad way) I had suddenly realized you all were operating with set ideas and presuppositions that I didn't have. My contributions aren't helpful if, for example, you say "image" and by that mean any sort of depiction, whereas for me "image" is a technical term meaning a very specific thing - say, "photograph." But then if you are all discussing images and I'm discussing exclusively photographs, there's not much point in continuing the conversation, and the one with the more narrow definition usually is butting in, trying to make points that do not pertain to the conversation.

Using the term "icon" to cover those three layers of what you're saying, I can appreciate much more the images y'all are posting. As art they mean something entirely different from scripture. I would agree that art is a language, but if one is operating with "icon" as exclusively that highest level, where it's tantamount to scripture, one has to be very, very careful what one is saying in the translation of that language into a new language. Not to get too abstract, but the Greek is the original, and all translations need to say the same thing, even if they use different 'words' to depict it.
 
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