• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Independently repeatable evidence that God interacts with our world

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,816
1,641
67
Northern uk
✟662,703.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The claims are a précis of evidence
I had hoped it would interest you enough to research it.

therealpresence.org is a start place but the books are worth getting.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/BuenosAires3.pdf

I’ve been thinking for years that Moore’s law applied to superconductors would yield magnetic fields that made the perennial 50 years suddenly drop to 5.

I also thought that it would take a well funded focussed private sector project to do it- the big collaborations like ITER are never effective. Too many cooks. I’ve done a few in other contexts.

Finally I thought years ago small power plants will show earlier success. Getting the energy out of a small space is a major problem.

I’m going to try and get ipo shares in helion.




All I've heard is claims, no evidence.

Looks interesting - the direct-to-electricity energy recapture technique is novel, they claim 95% efficiency for their magnets and energy recovery, which is high, and they claim to be self-sufficient in helium-3 (³He).

Big claims require big results - if they're right, it looks very good, but... Let's see how close they get to their 2024 net gain goal.

All I've heard is claims, no evidence.

Looks interesting - the direct-to-electricity energy recapture technique is novel, they claim 95% efficiency for their magnets and energy recovery, which is high, and they claim to be self-sufficient in helium-3 (³He).

Big claims require big results - if they're right, it looks very good, but... Let's see how close they get to their 2024 net gain goal.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
55
Texas
✟117,423.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
And conversely, atheist scientists invoke naturalism into the gaps, per this quote:

The more scientists testily insisted that the big bang was unfathomable, the more they sounded like medieval priests saying, "Don't ask me what made God." Researchers, prominently Alan Guth of MIT, began to assert that the big bang could be believed only if its mechanics could be explained. Indeed, Guth went on to propose such an explanation. Suffice it to say that, while Guth asserts science will eventually figure out the cause, he still invokes unknown physical laws in the prior condition. And no matter how you slice it, calling on unknown physical laws sounds awfully like appealing to the supernatural." (Wired Magazine, December 2002, The New Convergence, By Gregg Easterbrook, http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/convergence_pr.htm)l
So your response to my objections to the fine tuning argument is this? This has no bearing on if the fine tuning argument is sound. Do you have any responses to me objections? Here they are again:

The problem with any fine tuning argument is that it is just another argument from incredulity. Why are these parameters the way that they are? Invoking a god is just filling the gap of knowledge.

Another issue is this. Lets say I have 100, 6 sided dice and roll them. The probability of any one combination coming up is 1 in 6.5 x 10^77 (someone can check my math). But the probability of one of those combinations coming up is 1 in 1. So if you roll the dice it is a 100% probability that and extremely low probability will happen. Same with the universe. If a universe comes into existence the probabilities of a universe with certain characteristics is very low but one of those would have to happen, it just happens to be our universe.

Another problem is if you are going to claim the universe has a low probability of existence, how can you possibly calculate that probability? How many other universes are possible? So no one can show it is actually a low probability. Extremely low probability events happen all the time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,341
16,105
55
USA
✟404,999.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Someone asked for archeological evidence. I gave them an interesting phenomenon.

let’s see if you can describe ( without google earth) the view from a top of a hill , in three directions near a specific town I name, in a country you ( and nobody else you ever had contact with has ever been to, restricting itself only to buildings with an octagonal foundation, cruciform shape, location of windows, ledges etc.
Since there can only be a handful of buildings remotely like it in the world is already staggering odds.

The fact of the Ephesus council demonstrated the Ephesus tradition.

You would find it many order of magnitudes easier to win a lottery by chance. So it’s fascinating evidence.

Anyone that wins the lottery by anything *other* than chance is cheating. I really don't care about your uncomputed "odds".

Frankly these "feat" by this 19th century nun sounds a LOT like a cold read. The sort of specific, yet vague, information that can fit to a lot of places, especially, with the "description" in hand you potentially find ways to convince yourself that what you are "finding" matches the description.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,341
16,105
55
USA
✟404,999.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I also thought that it would take a well funded focussed private sector project to do it- the big collaborations like ITER are never effective. Too many cooks. I’ve done a few in other contexts.

Finally I thought years ago small power plants will show earlier success. Getting the energy out of a small space is a major problem.

I’m going to try and get ipo shares in helion.

Normally I would recommend against investing is something this poorly documented, but I'm sure the early investors will appreciate your money helping to buy them out.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟348,682.00
Faith
Atheist
The claims are a précis of evidence
I had hoped it would interest you enough to research it.

therealpresence.org is a start place but the books are worth getting.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/BuenosAires3.pdf
This is not a one-off or novel phenomenon - there have been at least four other 'bleeding host' reports that, on examination, have turned out to be bacteria or fungus contamination.

I had a cursory browse around and, as I expected, the provenance of the sample is extremely dubious - accounts vary - some say a woman found a host and gave it to the priest, who, for some reason, kept it. Others say the priest put a host in the tabernacle and 'a miracle happened', and so-on. There seem to have been no other witnesses to the discovery, and only one person's word that the sample tested was connected to a host at all. All parties involved up to the point of testing had every incentive for this to be a 'scientifically proven miracle' based on the familiar 'bleeding host' phenomenon.

I doubt it would stand up in a court of law, but it's certainly doesn't approach a scientific standard of evidence. I suggest it is, at best, a well-intentioned hoax.

I’ve been thinking for years that Moore’s law applied to superconductors would yield magnetic fields that made the perennial 50 years suddenly drop to 5.

I also thought that it would take a well funded focussed private sector project to do it- the big collaborations like ITER are never effective. Too many cooks. I’ve done a few in other contexts.

Finally I thought years ago small power plants will show earlier success. Getting the energy out of a small space is a major problem.

I’m going to try and get ipo shares in helion.
Good luck with that...
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So your response to my objections to the fine tuning argument is this? This has no bearing on if the fine tuning argument is sound. Do you have any responses to me objections? Here they are again:

The problem with any fine tuning argument is that it is just another argument from incredulity. Why are these parameters the way that they are? Invoking a god is just filling the gap of knowledge.

Another issue is this. Lets say I have 100, 6 sided dice and roll them. The probability of any one combination coming up is 1 in 6.5 x 10^77 (someone can check my math). But the probability of one of those combinations coming up is 1 in 1. So if you roll the dice it is a 100% probability that and extremely low probability will happen. Same with the universe. If a universe comes into existence the probabilities of a universe with certain characteristics is very low but one of those would have to happen, it just happens to be our universe.

Another problem is if you are going to claim the universe has a low probability of existence, how can you possibly calculate that probability? How many other universes are possible? So no one can show it is actually a low probability. Extremely low probability events happen all the time.
Because fine tuning goes beyond flipping a coin a few times or just a few parameters having to be set on a knifes edge of narrowness, to hundreds of parameters being set on a knifes edge of narrowness, and just one of those hundreds of parameters being only off by a minuscule amount would prevent the universe from existing or prevent any life from existing in it, (and that’s not counting the dozens of knife edge parameters needed for life to exist on this planet) - becoming overwhelming evidence to the point that secular physicists, astronomers, astrophysicists, cosmologists and mathematicians state that it’s clear the universe doesn’t exist due to a random process, but shows design.

Even water, the universal solvent without which life can’t exist, shows evidence of design in its unusual properties.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,816
1,641
67
Northern uk
✟662,703.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
But have you read the forensic reports?

I don’t know what you are reading. But in the case of one diagnosis of well known case of “ fungus contamination” it was a statement of conjecture made to contest the pathology reports by an atheist in the same university faculty ( Bialystok) said about sokolka - intent on debunking by someone who had never seen or requested to see the actual samples before casting a verdict.

Which is typical in sceptic world of trying to debunk phenomena with unsupportable alternative non explanations. Some earn a good living out of such pseudoscience.

I notice You haven’t commented on the actual tissue sections which are identified by multiple pathologists as striated heart muscle ( which looks nothing like fungus or bacteria and never will) preferring to note there are other things can look red!
It really is human tissue.

Just as not all things that look red are blood, but then red mould doesn’t pass any of the tests for human blood and tissue which these ( indeed the statue of Cochabamba does)

There is no doubt there are pious frauds. But no amount of painting fakes render the original artwork fake.

One of the other oft repeated red herrings is the idea that the church wants phenomena to be real or has any incentive to do so. The church is incredibly sceptical ,it hates the publicity, it analyses them for years and even at the end stops short of saying they are true!
They simply claim worthy of belief because all reasonable sources of fraud are discounted. Indeed they are often ( take Fatima ) the most hostile of the sceptics!

It was a lawyer who took sealed samples at Buenos airies which were analysed across the world,so chain of custody intact.

The parts that cannot be explained by fraud hypotheses: regardless of context of appearance of blood.
-Intimate intermingling at periphery with bread. How? A surgeon can’t do that) ( still visible after 800 years !! At lanciano. What preserves it?)
- In tixtla case blood shown to have been forced out of bread not in!)
- Progressive conversion ( several staged photographed at Buenos airies)
- leucocytes that should not exist in vitro after even a short period.
( pathologists say is impossible to explain)
- no body or missing person ( the sectionin would kill a living human , but the leucocytes say is Alive)
- no nuclear dna of the victim - a fraud would match the victim.

This is the real deal in my view.
I’ve looked for the holes and I can’t see them.
I’m sceptical too , until I see the forensics.
No amount of red mould can alter what was found in these cases.

I’ve already pointed out that on the statue of Cochabamba , the pathologist Lawrence was unable to discount the samples on the basis of pathology. They really were traumatised epithelium and human blood, ( and vegetative cells assumed thorn) but wanted to be sure so he returned and took his own samples, and examined the statue and came to the same conclusion , that it couldn’t be faked. That’s the point. On magic tricks, illusiinists don’t let you behind the curtain. In these cases scientists were welcomed. Several did in each case.

If you have a fraud hypothesis it would be interesting to ask how.
This is simply not explainable by fraudulent insertion of cadaver flesh.
Not least cadavers have nuclear dna. This has only mitichondrial.

humour me. Take a good hard look at one.
Castarnon book is downloadable on tixtla ( Spanish), sadly at a price, but it is half forensic reports. All credible labs.

Lanciano sections are all there on the web ( but was pre dna testing)


This is not a one-off or novel phenomenon - there have been at least four other 'bleeding host' reports that, on examination, have turned out to be bacteria or fungus contamination.

I had a cursory browse around and, as I expected, the provenance of the sample is extremely dubious - accounts vary - some say a woman found a host and gave it to the priest, who, for some reason, kept it. Others say the priest put a host in the tabernacle and 'a miracle happened', and so-on. There seem to have been no other witnesses to the discovery, and only one person's word that the sample tested was connected to a host at all. All parties involved up to the point of testing had every incentive for this to be a 'scientifically proven miracle' based on the familiar 'bleeding host' phenomenon.

I doubt it would stand up in a court of law, but it's certainly doesn't approach a scientific standard of evidence. I suggest it is, at best, a well-intentioned hoax.

Good luck with that...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,816
1,641
67
Northern uk
✟662,703.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Normally I would recommend against investing is something this poorly documented, but I'm sure the early investors will appreciate your money helping to buy them out.
I think you miss my point, I won’t be putting money in in expectation of return.I regard it as crowdfunding an important project. If it makes money so be it.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,341
16,105
55
USA
✟404,999.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Because fine tuning goes beyond flipping a coin a few times or just a few parameters having to be set on a knifes edge of narrowness, to hundreds of parameters being set on a knifes edge of narrowness, and just one of those hundreds of parameters being only off by a minuscule amount would prevent the universe from existing or prevent any life from existing in it, (and that’s not counting the dozens of knife edge parameters needed for life to exist on this planet) - becoming overwhelming evidence to the point that secular physicists, astronomers, astrophysicists, cosmologists and mathematicians state that it’s clear the universe doesn’t exist due to a random process, but shows design.

I've been around a lot of these people professionally, and frankly this notion that they claim that the universe/physics shows design is *very* far from reality. We don't talk that way amongst ourselves.

Setting that aside, can you name *one* of the parameters of the universe that is so on the "knife's edge" that changing it a minuscule bit would make life impossible. Be specific about which property, how much it can be changed, and what evidence demonstrates that values outside that range would be detrimental to life. Only one such property is needed, but I don't want some derivative property.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I've been around a lot of these people professionally, and frankly this notion that they claim that the universe/physics shows design is *very* far from reality. We don't talk that way amongst ourselves.

Setting that aside, can you name *one* of the parameters of the universe that is so on the "knife's edge" that changing it a minuscule bit would make life impossible. Be specific about which property, how much it can be changed, and what evidence demonstrates that values outside that range would be detrimental to life. Only one such property is needed, but I don't want some derivative property.

In the first three minutes of cosmic history, the whole universe was the arena of nuclear reactions. When that era came to an end, through the cooling produced by expansion, the world was left, as it is today on the large scale, a mixture of three-quarters hydrogen and one-quarter helium. A little change in the balance between the strong and weak nuclear forces could have resulted in there being no hydrogen--and so ultimately no water, that fluid that seems so essential to life. A small increase (about 2 percent) in the strong nuclear force would bind two protons to form diprotons. There would then be no hydrogen-burning main-sequence stars, but only helium burners, which are far too fierce and rapid to be energy sources capable of sustaining the coming to be of planetary life. A decrease in the strong nuclear force by a similar amount would have unbound the deuteron and played havoc with fruitful nuclear physics." (John Polkinghorne, "A Potent Universe," in Templeton pg 111

Slight variations in physical laws such as gravity or electromagnetism would make life impossible . . . the necessity to produce life lies at the center of the universe's whole machinery and design ..." (John Wheeler, Princeton University professor of physics Reader's Digest, Sept., 1986)

We have attempted to describe early stages of the expansion of the universe but the description in terms of nuclear physics and relativity is not an explanation of those conditions. Formidable questions arise and it is not clear today where the answers should be sought: indeed, even the scientific description of these queries produces the remarkable idea that there may not be a solution in the language of science. Why is the universe expanding? Furthermore, why is it expanding at so near the critical rate to prevent its collapse? The query is most important because minor differences near time zero would have made human existence impossible. When the universe was one second from the beginning of the expansion we have stated that the temperature had fallen to 1010 deg K and the density to 1 gram per cubic centimeter. It is a phase when, it is postulated, the universe had already reached the possibility of description in terms of common physical concepts. If at that moment the rate of expansion had been reduced by only one part in a thousand billion, then the universe would have collapsed after a few million years, near the end of the epoch we now recognize as the radiation era, or the primordial fireball, before matter and radiation had become decoupled. This remarkable fact was pointed out recently by one of the most distinguished contemporary cosmologists who referred to the suggestions that out of all the possible universes, the only one which can exist, in the sense that it can be known, is simply the one which satisfies the narrow conditions necessary for the development of intelligent life." (Bernard Lovell, In the Center of Immensities, pages 122-123 (New York: Harper & Row, 1978).)

If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just about where these levels are actually found to be ... A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question." (Hoyle F., 'The Universe: Some Past and Present Reflections," University of Cardiff, 1982, p16, in Davies P.C.W., "The Accidental Universe," [1982], Cambridge University Press: Cambridge UK, 1983, reprint, p.118)

Given a random distribution of (gravitating) matter, it is overwhelmingly more probable that it will form a black hole rather than a star or cloud of dispersed gas. These considerations give a new slant, therefore, to the question of whether the universe was created in an ordered or disordered state. If the initial state were chosen at random, it seems exceedingly probable that the big bang would have coughed out black holes rather than dispersed gases. The present arrangement of matter and energy, with matter spread thinly at relatively low density, in the form of stars and gas clouds would, apparently, only result from a very special choice of initial conditions. Roger Penrose has computed the odds against the observed universe appearing by accident, given that a black hole cosmos is so much more likely on a priori grounds. He estimates a figure of 10^300 to one." (Paul Davies, God and the New Physics, pages 178-179 (Simon & Schuster, 1984).)


strong nuclear force constant:

if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry

if smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry


weak nuclear force constant:

if larger: too much hydrogen would convert to helium in big bang; hence, stars would convert too much matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible

if smaller: too little helium would be produced from big bang; hence, stars would convert too little matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible


gravitational force constant:

if larger: stars would be too hot and would burn too rapidly and too unevenly for life chemistry

if smaller: stars would be too cool to ignite nuclear fusion; thus, many of the elements needed for life chemistry would never form


electromagnetic force constant:

if greater: chemical bonding would be disrupted; elements more massive than boron would be unstable to fission

if lesser: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry


ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force constant:

if larger: all stars would be at least 40% more massive than the sun; hence, stellar burning would be too brief and too uneven for life support

if smaller: all stars would be at least 20% less massive than the sun, thus incapable of producing heavy elements


ratio of electron to proton mass:

if larger: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry

if smaller: same as above

ratio of number of protons to number of electrons

if larger: electromagnetism would dominate gravity, preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation

if smaller: same as above


expansion rate of the universe:

if larger: no galaxies would form

if smaller: universe would collapse, even before stars formed


entropy level of the universe:

if larger: stars would not form within proto-galaxies

if smaller: no proto-galaxies would form


mass density of the universe:

if larger: overabundance of deuterium from big bang would cause stars to burn rapidly, too rapidly for life to form

if smaller: insufficient helium from big bang would result in a shortage of heavy elements


velocity of light:

if faster: stars would be too luminous for life support if slower: stars would be insufficiently luminous for life support


age of the universe:

if older: no solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would exist in the right (for life) part of the galaxy

if younger: solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed


initial uniformity of radiation:

if more uniform: stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed

if less uniform: universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space


average distance between galaxies:

if larger: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material

if smaller: gravitational tug-of-wars would destabilize the sun's orbit


density of galaxy cluster:

if denser: galaxy collisions and mergers would disrupt the sun's orbit

if less dense: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material


average distance between stars:

if larger: heavy element density would be too sparse for rocky planets to form

if smaller: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life


fine structure constant (describing the fine-structure splitting of spectral lines):

if larger: all stars would be at least 30% less massive than the sun

if larger than 0.06: matter would be unstable in large magnetic fields

if smaller: all stars would be at least 80% more massive than the sun


decay rate of protons:

if greater: life would be exterminated by the release of radiation

if smaller: universe would contain insufficient matter for life


12C to 16O nuclear energy level ratio:

if larger: universe would contain insufficient oxygen for life

if smaller: universe would contain insufficient carbon for life


ground state energy level for 4He:

if larger: universe would contain insufficient carbon and oxygen for life

if smaller: same as above


decay rate of 8Be:

if slower: heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars

if faster: no element heavier than beryllium would form; thus, no life chemistry



ratio of neutron mass to proton mass:

if higher: neutron decay would yield too few neutrons for the formation of many life-essential elements

if lower: neutron decay would produce so many neutrons as to collapse all stars into neutron stars or black holes


initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons:

if greater: radiation would prohibit planet formation

if lesser: matter would be insufficient for galaxy or star formation


polarity of the water molecule:

if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too high for life

if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too low for life; liquid water would not work as a solvent for life chemistry; ice would not float, and a runaway freeze-up would result


supernovae eruptions:

if too close, too frequent, or too late: radiation would exterminate life on the planet

if too distant, too infrequent, or too soon: heavy elements would be too sparse for rocky planets to form


white dwarf binaries:

if too few: insufficient fluorine would exist for life chemistry

if too many: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life

if formed too soon: insufficient fluorine production

if formed too late: fluorine would arrive too late for life chemistry


ratio of exotic matter mass to ordinary matter mass:

if larger: universe would collapse before solar-type stars could form

if smaller: no galaxies would form


number of effective dimensions in the early universe:

if larger: quantum mechanics, gravity, and relativity could not coexist; thus, life would be impossible

if smaller: same result


number of effective dimensions in the present universe:

if smaller: electron, planet, and star orbits would become unstable

if larger: same result


mass of the neutrino:

if smaller: galaxy clusters, galaxies, and stars would not form

if larger: galaxy clusters and galaxies would be too dense


big bang ripples:

if smaller: galaxies would not form; universe would expand too rapidly

if larger: galaxies/galaxy clusters would be too dense for life; black holes would dominate; universe would collapse before life-site could form


size of the relativistic dilation factor:

if smaller: certain life-essential chemical reactions will not function properly

if larger: same result


uncertainty magnitude in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle:

if smaller: oxygen transport to body cells would be too small and certain life-essential elements would be unstable

if larger: oxygen transport to body cells would be too great and certain life-essential elements would be unstable


cosmological constant:

if larger: universe would expand too quickly to form solar-type stars
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Mountainmike
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So your response to my objections to the fine tuning argument is this? This has no bearing on if the fine tuning argument is sound. Do you have any responses to me objections? Here they are again:

The problem with any fine tuning argument is that it is just another argument from incredulity. Why are these parameters the way that they are? Invoking a god is just filling the gap of knowledge.

Another issue is this. Lets say I have 100, 6 sided dice and roll them. The probability of any one combination coming up is 1 in 6.5 x 10^77 (someone can check my math). But the probability of one of those combinations coming up is 1 in 1. So if you roll the dice it is a 100% probability that and extremely low probability will happen. Same with the universe. If a universe comes into existence the probabilities of a universe with certain characteristics is very low but one of those would have to happen, it just happens to be our universe.

Another problem is if you are going to claim the universe has a low probability of existence, how can you possibly calculate that probability? How many other universes are possible? So no one can show it is actually a low probability. Extremely low probability events happen all the time.

How can it be calculated? Ask this guy who calculated the odds at way beyond impossible, at 10 to the 300th power:

Given a random distribution of (gravitating) matter, it is overwhelmingly more probable that it will form a black hole rather than a star or cloud of dispersed gas. These considerations give a new slant, therefore, to the question of whether the universe was created in an ordered or disordered state. If the initial state were chosen at random, it seems exceedingly probable that the big bang would have coughed out black holes rather than dispersed gases. The present arrangement of matter and energy, with matter spread thinly at relatively low density, in the form of stars and gas clouds would, apparently, only result from a very special choice of initial conditions. Roger Penrose has computed the odds against the observed universe appearing by accident, given that a black hole cosmos is so much more likely on a priori grounds. He estimates a figure of 10^300 to one." (Paul Davies, God and the New Physics, pages 178-179 (Simon & Schuster, 1984).)
 
Upvote 0

NxNW

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
6,839
4,775
NW
✟257,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
hundreds of parameters being set on a knifes edge of narrowness, and just one of those hundreds of parameters being only off by a minuscule amount would prevent the universe from existing or prevent any life from existing in it

Completely, utterly false.
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
55
Texas
✟117,423.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
How can it be calculated? Ask this guy who calculated the odds at way beyond impossible, at 10 to the 300th power:
If there is a probability then it is by definition possible. You still have not responded to my dice problem that shows that low probability events happen all the time and have to happen.

Another issue is this. Lets say I have 100, 6 sided dice and roll them. The probability of any one combination coming up is 1 in 6.5 x 10^77 (someone can check my math). But the probability of one of those combinations coming up is 1 in 1. So if you roll the dice it is a 100% probability that and extremely low probability will happen. Same with the universe. If a universe comes into existence the probabilities of a universe with certain characteristics is very low but one of those would have to happen, it just happens to be our universe.

Given a random distribution of (gravitating) matter, it is overwhelmingly more probable that it will form a black hole rather than a star or cloud of dispersed gas. These considerations give a new slant, therefore, to the question of whether the universe was created in an ordered or disordered state. If the initial state were chosen at random, it seems exceedingly probable that the big bang would have coughed out black holes rather than dispersed gases. The present arrangement of matter and energy, with matter spread thinly at relatively low density, in the form of stars and gas clouds would, apparently, only result from a very special choice of initial conditions. Roger Penrose has computed the odds against the observed universe appearing by accident, given that a black hole cosmos is so much more likely on a priori grounds. He estimates a figure of 10^300 to one." (Paul Davies, God and the New Physics, pages 178-179 (Simon & Schuster, 1984).)
He even says it is an estimate because there is no way to know the actual probability because we cannot know all the potential outcomes. But if I grant that this is accurate, it just shows a low probability and jumps to the conclusion that a god is the answer without good evidence. Just an argument from incredulity. Penrose's claim is also not testable nor falsifiable.

One more question. Is the fine tuning argument the reason you believe a god exists?
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
55
Texas
✟117,423.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Because fine tuning goes beyond flipping a coin a few times or just a few parameters having to be set on a knifes edge of narrowness, to hundreds of parameters being set on a knifes edge of narrowness, and just one of those hundreds of parameters being only off by a minuscule amount would prevent the universe from existing or prevent any life from existing in it, (and that’s not counting the dozens of knife edge parameters needed for life to exist on this planet) - becoming overwhelming evidence to the point that secular physicists, astronomers, astrophysicists, cosmologists and mathematicians state that it’s clear the universe doesn’t exist due to a random process, but shows design.
The quotes are usually that the universe looks designed not that it is designed. However, any scientist that believes in design must provide good evidence. There are plenty of scientists that do not believe in design as well.

Life evolved to fit the environment not that the environment was designed for life. We have overwhelming actual good evidence for this. No incredulity needed.

Even water, the universal solvent without which life can’t exist, shows evidence of design in its unusual properties.
What is the evidence?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The quotes are usually that the universe looks designed not that it is designed. However, any scientist that believes in design must provide good evidence. There are plenty of scientists that do not believe in design as well.

Life evolved to fit the environment not that the environment was designed for life. We have overwhelming actual good evidence for this. No incredulity needed.

What is the evidence?

Water has been designed for life, if it didn’t anomalously expand when frozen, ice wouldn’t float and all life in lakes and ponds would die in winter as all the water would freeze and not just the surface water.

Quote:

Water is actually one of the strangest substances known to science. This may seem a rather odd thing to say about a substance as familiar but it is surely true. Its specific heat, its surface tension, and most of its other physical properties have values anomalously higher or lower than those of any other known material. The fact that its solid phase is less dense than its liquid phase (ice floats) is virtually a unique property. These aspects or the chemical and physical structure of water have been noted before, for instance by the authors of the Bridgewater Treatises in the 1830's and by Henderson in 1913, who also pointed out that these strange properties make water a uniquely useful liquid and the basis for living things."

"The anomalous melting points, boiling points and heats of vaporization of water relative to those of other substances are seen most clearly if the values of these quantities are graphed as a function of atomic weight or atomic number. Figure 8.4 gives the melting points of various hydride molecules as a function of the location in the periodic table of the largest atom in the molecule. Figure 8.5 gives the boiling points and Figure 8.6 the heats of vaporization of various hydrides as a function of location in the periodic table. These figures show clearly that if the elements in the first row of the periodic table are ignored, the melting points, the boiling points, and the heats of vaporization all increase with the atomic weight of R for a series of compounds RHn, where n is constant for a given series. In the RH4 series, the values of these three quantities all lie more or less on a straight line. In particular, the values for methane, CH4, are those which one would have obtained by extrapolating backward along the RH4 series. The values for water [H20], hydrogen fluoride [HF], and ammonia [NH3] are far in excess of what one would expect by linear extrapolation. The boiling point of water, for instance, would be expected to occur at 100oC, rather than the +100oC that is observed. This indicates that there is a very strong force acting between the molecules of water, a force which is absent, or almost so, in the interactions of other members of the RH2 series. These properties of water can be understood in terms of the atomic structure of the water molecule ..." (Barrow J.D. & Tipler F.J., "The Anthropic Cosmological Principle," 1996, reprint, pp.524, 525- 526)


"polarity of the water molecule - if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too great for life to exist - if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too small for life's existence; liquid water would become too inferior a solvent for life chemistry to proceed; ice would not float, leading to a runaway freeze-up" (Ross H.N., "The Creator and the Cosmos: How the Greatest Scientific Discoveries of the Century Reveal God," [1993], NavPress: Colorado Springs CO, 1994, Third Printing, pp.112-113)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,341
16,105
55
USA
✟404,999.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Since I asked for one example I will take your first example.

In the first three minutes of cosmic history, the whole universe was the arena of nuclear reactions. When that era came to an end, through the cooling produced by expansion, the world was left, as it is today on the large scale, a mixture of three-quarters hydrogen and one-quarter helium. A little change in the balance between the strong and weak nuclear forces could have resulted in there being no hydrogen--and so ultimately no water, that fluid that seems so essential to life. A small increase (about 2 percent) in the strong nuclear force would bind two protons to form diprotons. There would then be no hydrogen-burning main-sequence stars, but only helium burners, which are far too fierce and rapid to be energy sources capable of sustaining the coming to be of planetary life. A decrease in the strong nuclear force by a similar amount would have unbound the deuteron and played havoc with fruitful nuclear physics." (John Polkinghorne, "A Potent Universe," in Templeton pg 111

This limit of a few percent on the strong nuclear force is one of the most stringent of the physical parameter restrictions. Frankly we don't know what *possible* ranges for this parameter are. There are also some possible alternative routes to heavier elements that Mr. Polkinghorne may not have been aware of. This is possible because, helium, oxygen, carbon, etc. are all more tightly bound than the deuteron and could remain bound for a wider range of strong force values.

It may be a quibble, but i wouldn't quite call a few percent as on a knife's edge. (It is roughly the same variation as the daily variation in weight for most humans.) I've seen a lot of rhetoric on this topic, not necessarily from you, about "tiny tiny" differences making life impossible, this isn't that.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since I asked for one example I will take your first example.



This limit of a few percent on the strong nuclear force is one of the most stringent of the physical parameter restrictions. Frankly we don't know what *possible* ranges for this parameter are. There are also some possible alternative routes to heavier elements that Mr. Polkinghorne may not have been aware of. This is possible because, helium, oxygen, carbon, etc. are all more tightly bound than the deuteron and could remain bound for a wider range of strong force values.

It may be a quibble, but i wouldn't quite call a few percent as on a knife's edge. (It is roughly the same variation as the daily variation in weight for most humans.) I've seen a lot of rhetoric on this topic, not necessarily from you, about "tiny tiny" differences making life impossible, this isn't that.

Fine-tuning” refers to the supposed fact that there is a set of cosmological parameters or fundamental physical constants which are such that had they been very slightly different then the universe would have been void of intelligent life. For example, in the classical big bang model, the early expansion speed seems fine-tuned. Had it been very slightly greater, the universe would have expanded too rapidly and no galaxies would have formed; there would only have been a very low density hydrogen gas getting more and more dispersed over time. In such a universe, presumably, life could not evolve. Had the early expansion speed been very slightly less, then the universe would have recollapsed within a fraction of a second, and again there would have been no life. Our universe, having just the right conditions for life, appears to be balancing on a knife’s edge (Leslie 1989). A number of other parameters seem fine-tuned in the same sense – e.g. the ratio of the electron mass to the proton mass, the magnitudes of force strengths, the smoothness of the early universe, the neutron-proton mass difference, even the metric signature of spacetime (Tegmark 1997).
 
Upvote 0

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
893
55
Texas
✟117,423.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Quote:

Water is actually one of the strangest substances known to science. This may seem a rather odd thing to say about a substance as familiar but it is surely true. Its specific heat, its surface tension, and most of its other physical properties have values anomalously higher or lower than those of any other known material. The fact that its solid phase is less dense than its liquid phase (ice floats) is virtually a unique property. These aspects or the chemical and physical structure of water have been noted before, for instance by the authors of the Bridgewater Treatises in the 1830's and by Henderson in 1913, who also pointed out that these strange properties make water a uniquely useful liquid and the basis for living things."

"The anomalous melting points, boiling points and heats of vaporization of water relative to those of other substances are seen most clearly if the values of these quantities are graphed as a function of atomic weight or atomic number. Figure 8.4 gives the melting points of various hydride molecules as a function of the location in the periodic table of the largest atom in the molecule. Figure 8.5 gives the boiling points and Figure 8.6 the heats of vaporization of various hydrides as a function of location in the periodic table. These figures show clearly that if the elements in the first row of the periodic table are ignored, the melting points, the boiling points, and the heats of vaporization all increase with the atomic weight of R for a series of compounds RHn, where n is constant for a given series. In the RH4 series, the values of these three quantities all lie more or less on a straight line. In particular, the values for methane, CH4, are those which one would have obtained by extrapolating backward along the RH4 series. The values for water [H20], hydrogen fluoride [HF], and ammonia [NH3] are far in excess of what one would expect by linear extrapolation. The boiling point of water, for instance, would be expected to occur at 100oC, rather than the +100oC that is observed. This indicates that there is a very strong force acting between the molecules of water, a force which is absent, or almost so, in the interactions of other members of the RH2 series. These properties of water can be understood in terms of the atomic structure of the water molecule ..." (Barrow J.D. & Tipler F.J., "The Anthropic Cosmological Principle," 1996, reprint, pp.524, 525- 526)


"polarity of the water molecule - if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too great for life to exist - if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too small for life's existence; liquid water would become too inferior a solvent for life chemistry to proceed; ice would not float, leading to a runaway freeze-up" (Ross H.N., "The Creator and the Cosmos: How the Greatest Scientific Discoveries of the Century Reveal God," [1993], NavPress: Colorado Springs CO, 1994, Third Printing, pp.112-113)
I am aware of the properties of water. You have never addressed my objections to the fine tuning argument. I am tired or repeating it. This is just "I don't have an explanation so there must be a god".

Is this the reason you believe God exists?
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,341
16,105
55
USA
✟404,999.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Fine-tuning” refers to the supposed fact that there is a set of cosmological parameters or fundamental physical constants which are such that had they been very slightly different then the universe would have been void of intelligent life. For example, in the classical big bang model, the early expansion speed seems fine-tuned. Had it been very slightly greater, the universe would have expanded too rapidly and no galaxies would have formed; there would only have been a very low density hydrogen gas getting more and more dispersed over time. In such a universe, presumably, life could not evolve. Had the early expansion speed been very slightly less, then the universe would have recollapsed within a fraction of a second, and again there would have been no life. Our universe, having just the right conditions for life, appears to be balancing on a knife’s edge (Leslie 1989). A number of other parameters seem fine-tuned in the same sense – e.g. the ratio of the electron mass to the proton mass, the magnitudes of force strengths, the smoothness of the early universe, the neutron-proton mass difference, even the metric signature of spacetime (Tegmark 1997).

I know what this "fine tuning" stuff is. I've argued against it in dozens of posts. The "expansion fine tuning" is not relevant in modern cosmological theory. And I *really* don't care what some philosopher wrote 30+ years ago. A real cosmologist would have at least acknowledged inflationary cosmology as a solution to this problem even in 1989, but noted that more evidence was required. We'll that evidence exists now. This "problem" is no longer so.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.