in the spirit of full disclosure...

[lionroar0]

Hi Rose

It sounds to me like what you are looking for is the mysticism that is not readily found in the CC.

ei... St. John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, St. Francis ect..

Peace

 

[Miss Shelby]

If I may, what is meant by 'formal inquiry'? How does it differ from 'informal inquiry' as it's been expressed both ways in this thread.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

I've been away from posting here.......this is quite a shock to me......even when you changed your name to RoL....I always thought of you as Shannon McCatholic....I'm a little bewildered, confused right now..........I don't know what to say. Converting to the EO is different than someone converting into the Catholic faith.......from a few snippets I've read, some former Catholic's had to actually renounce the Catholic faith and the Pope.......would you really be willing to do that? If so.....than all I can possibly hope is that you don't turn into what I've seen in the past...taking jabs at the faith......that would break my heart coming from you.
*Best advice.....seek your info outside of what is available to you in the other forum......it's just full of constant nasty jabs........uncalled for.......I don't want to see that happen to you.
**I'm also praying that you stay, you're already where you need to be......I personally don't think that what you're searching for is going to be found by converting.

 

[geocajun]

nm

 

[nyj]

BIG MEANIE POST WARNING!

Not to poop on the parade but ... I have to wonder why such a private action would be revealed publically, mostly to total strangers. Do you want to be talked out of it? Do you want people to put their foot down (like NDIrish did), so as to justify your consideration of Orthodoxy?

I guess I just don't understand the point of these sorts of threads. If I was going to convert, or deconvert ... I'd just do it without including OBOB into it. Maybe that means I care less about the people of OBOB than you do, but the people you really care about can be contacted privately. :shrug:

May God guide you and keep you regardless of your choice, and I'll refrain from interjecting my own opinion on the situation other than to say I won't be checked back on the progress.

 

[twosid]

*Best advice.....seek your info outside of what is available to you in the other forum......it's just full of constant nasty jabs......

I'll second this. When I originally started looking at the Catholic faith I was also looking at the Orthodox. It was that forum that stopped my looking into that faith.

 

[NDIrish]

Call me simple minded, but:

• Jesus Christ instituted the Catholic Church
• He appointed Peter as his vicar
• He committed to us that the Holy Spirit would guide it and protect it from all error
• The Orthodox deny Peter
• That makes the Orthodox in grave error (or call it whatever politically correct term you want)
• For a person to embrace this puts them at great risk

What am I missing?

I listened to a meditation last night by a good, holy priest. He said when you start rationalizing things in your head, you should immediately become aware that something's wrong.

Ugh...

For some reason, with the topic of the Orthodox I'm not the most "ecumenically correct". I'm not sure why that is. I have a much easier time with Protestant discussions.

In any case, I'll not post on this thread again. Shannon, I'll pray for you. Not to follow some mystical, undefined "path"; but rather to recognize God's will is that you remain Catholic.

My PM box is always open to you.

P.S. I'm not sure there is a better example of what level of damage has been done over the past 40 - 50 years. These )(&%$&(^$#_ modernists will have to answer for these kids of struggles.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Why will your husband go to Orthodox DL and not to Mass?

I pray that through your search you will have a stronger loyalty to the Catholic Church and will be at peace, I know that is what happened to me.

If however, it results in renouncing the Catholic faith, I think that will be a sad day indeed.

I am sure that you will fall in love with the Divine Liturgy, I did, which is why I went to Divine Liturgy exclusively for about a year and a half and still go every once in a while, but if it is the praxis that you seek, then please do what you can to practice the Eastern praxis while remaining in union with Rome.

Anyways, I am mainly confused as to what you think you can find in Orthodoxy that you can't find in Catholicism?

 

[RoseofLima]

NYJ-- it's because of how I feel about so many people here in OBOB-- there are many who feel like family to me. If the Golden Rule is to do unto others, as you would have them do unto you...then I feel obligated to share this--just as I have done with my own family.

I would hate to end up converting and have people felt as though there was some inherent dishonesty through omission of the truth.

Maybe that isn't prudent...I don't know-- but I am trying to be honorable.

Michelle-Formal inquiry to me- is actually being in counsel with an Orthodox priest.

Epiphanygirl-- the information I will gather will be directly from an Orthodox priest and no other. rreading what he and my Catholic spiritual director ask me to read, etc. along the way...

 

[QuantaCura]

Hi RoseofLima,

I apologize ahead of time--this turned out way longer than I expected. I will speak to your mind first, and hopefully to your heart at the end.

The things you mention in previous posts can be found in our Catholic heritage as well. Saints like Athanasius, Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, Ephrem, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Palamas, and others who give us the Eastern expression are completely Catholic--they are not just Eastern.

There's only one reason you should choose a religion. It's the true one. I realize you agree with many things in the Orthodox Church, that's a nice coincidence, but agreement is not true faith--we must believe what God has revealed not because we agree with Him, but because of the trustworthiness and love of He who reveals it for our own good. You have to make sure this is what God has revealed and it is not just what you wish He revealed (not saying you're doing this, just warning against it in case).

Is the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church the one true Church? Have you looked into Oriental Orthodox Church as well? They too make a good claim. I realize one of their churches probably is not nearby, but if they are the true Church, I don't think it would be an excuse to join a different communion just because they are not nearby. In my look into both of these a while back, I discovered that it is impossible to choose one Orthodoxy over the other--especially given their joint declarations of late, their really is no mark that distinguishes one from the other--yet they are separate. The Scriptures and the Fathers however testify to Peter and his chair as the source of unity--the unshakeable rock that will never go into schism so that all men will know where the true Church is. God has left us a mark to be able to discern this truth.

As for irreverence at the liturgy and in the Church in general, look to the saints on this issue. St. Basil the Great and St. Catherine of Siena are perfect examples (and one is Eastern and one is Western). They had it much worse than we have here (and I know you have it pretty bad from what I've read from you--trust me, they had it worse.). They didn't pack up and leave. In St. Basil's time especially, he laments the fact that the faithful were shunning the churches because of the abuses and heresies and that the faithful were praying in the desert instead--the pope also completely ignored his pleas for help, which brought great pain and feeling of betrayal to his heart. But what was his response? How did he handle it? He did so with all pateince, bearing the difficulties he was given (he was even physically persecuted by the church leaders in his area). St. Catherine also describes completley butchered Masses often with feigned consecrations. But what God tells her in the Dialogue is to suffer through them, offering reparations and prayers--consumed with love and weeping with tears of fire. Her love, tears and sweat would wipe the face of the bride soiled by bad priests and lay people.

You know, the Church has gone through some rough times since day one. God always raised up great saints to get her back on track--some were canonized, but most suffered in anonymity. Just their pateince, faithfulness, and especially unwavering love always kept us going. But I notice something happening now. I see the potential saints we are being sent just getting up and leaving for Orthodoxy or the SSPX. Maybe this happened before too, or maybe this is those dangerous times when even the elect will have their faith shaken terribly. Either way, it breaks my heart to see it.

I know you have been broken terribly in your life, but I can tell that that brokenness has allowed you to love in such a radical way. I see the broken women Our Lord has used as implements of His love, to draw souls to Him, to His Church, and to purify and save His Church during the great storms--women like St Catherine of Genoa, Bl. Anna Marie Taigi, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Rose of Lima, St. Gemma, and on and on. They all did very little quantifiable work, but the fire of their love, their patient suffering, and the power of their tears did more good for souls, the Church, and the world than they could have known on this earth--they could only know when they got to Heaven. They suffered and loved just like their Beloved when the whole world and even much of the Church was against them. Their children and their spouses were also sanctified by their love (especially see the complete 180 taken by the husband of St. Catherine of Genoa at the end--I think her story is especially good for you to see, as she and her husband had to live celibately eventually--and her husband, who had been very unfaithful throughout their marriage, had a complete conversion and became saintly himself).

All I can ask is for you to prayerfully evaluate why God has placed you where you are now and whether you are meant to leave. Ask why God has allowed you to suffer through what you have suffered and what you continue to suffer through--our Crosses are healing and strengthening and fulfilling--that is the great paradox of our faith, and the great power of true love. You are someone I know Our Lord is using to draw souls to the truth, and to pour forth His love in your home, in the Church, and in the world and I'd hate to see you leave.

Please pray--I know you will--and seek the help of those courageous women I mentioned. I will pray for you as well.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Hi RoseofLima,

I apologize ahead of time--this turned out way longer than I expected. I will speak to your mind first, and hopefully to your heart at the end.

The things you mention in previous posts can be found in our Catholic heritage as well. Saints like Athanasius, Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, Ephrem, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Palamas, and others who give us the Eastern expression are completely Catholic--they are not just Eastern.

There's only one reason you should choose a religion. It's the true one. I realize you agree with many things in the Orthodox Church, that's a nice coincidence, but agreement is not true faith--we must believe what God has revealed not because we agree with Him, but because of the trustworthiness and love of He who reveals it for our own good. You have to make sure this is what God has revealed and it is not just what you wish He revealed (not saying you're doing this, just warning against it in case).

Is the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church the one true Church? Have you looked into Oriental Orthodox Church as well? They too make a good claim. I realize one of their churches probably is not nearby, but if they are the true Church, I don't think it would be an excuse to join a different communion just because they are not nearby. In my look into both of these a while back, I discovered that it is impossible to choose one Orthodoxy over the other--especially given their joint declarations of late, their really is no mark that distinguishes one from the other--yet they are separate. The Scriptures and the Fathers however testify to Peter and his chair as the source of unity--the unshakeable rock that will never go into schism so that all men will know where the true Church is. God has left us a mark to be able to discern this truth.

As for irreverence at the liturgy and in the Church in general, look to the saints on this issue. St. Basil the Great and St. Catherine of Siena are perfect examples (and one is Eastern and one is Western). They had it much worse than we have here (and I know you have it pretty bad from what I've read from you--trust me, they had it worse.). They didn't pack up and leave. In St. Basil's time especially, he laments the fact that the faithful were shunning the churches because of the abuses and heresies and that the faithful were praying in the desert instead--the pope also completely ignored his pleas for help, which brought great pain and feeling of betrayal to his heart. But what was his response? How did he handle it? He did so with all pateince, bearing the difficulties he was given (he was even physically persecuted by the church leaders in his area). St. Catherine also describes completley butchered Masses often with feigned consecrations. But what God tells her in the Dialogue is to suffer through them, offering reparations and prayers--consumed with love and weeping with tears of fire. Her love, tears and sweat would wipe the face of the bride soiled by bad priests and lay people.

You know, the Church has gone through some rough times since day one. God always raised up great saints to get her back on track--some were canonized, but most suffered in anonymity. Just their pateince, faithfulness, and especially unwavering love always kept us going. But I notice something happening now. I see the potential saints we are being sent just getting up and leaving for Orthodoxy or the SSPX. Maybe this happened before too, or maybe this is those dangerous times when even the elect will have their faith shaken terribly. Either way, it breaks my heart to see it.

I know you have been broken terribly in your life, but I can tell that that brokenness has allowed you to love in such a radical way. I see the broken women Our Lord has used as implements of His love, to draw souls to Him, to His Church, and to purify and save His Church during the great storms--women like St Catherine of Genoa, Bl. Anna Marie Taigi, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Rose of Lima, St. Gemma, and on and on. They all did very little quantifiable work, but the fire of their love, their patient suffering, and the power of their tears did more good for souls, the Church, and the world than they could have known on this earth--they could only know when they got to Heaven. They suffered and loved just like their Beloved when the whole world and even much of the Church was against them. Their children and their spouses were also sanctified by their love (especially see the complete 180 taken by the husband of St. Catherine of Genoa at the end--I think her story is especially good for you to see, as she and her husband had to live celibately eventually--and her husband, who had been very unfaithful throughout their marriage, had a complete conversion and became saintly himself).

All I can ask is for you to prayerfully evaluate why God has placed you where you are now and whether you are meant to leave. Ask why God has allowed you to suffer through what you have suffered and what you continue to suffer through--our Crosses are healing and strengthening and fulfilling--that is the great paradox of our faith, and the great power of true love. You are someone I know Our Lord is using to draw souls to the truth, and to pour forth His love in your home, in the Church, and in the world and I'd hate to see you leave.

Please pray--I know you will--and seek the help of those courageous women I mentioned. I will pray for you as well.

If I could rep you a million times, I would!

 

[RoseofLima]

Why will your husband go to Orthodox DL and not to Mass?

I pray that through your search you will have a stronger loyalty to the Catholic Church and will be at peace, I know that is what happened to me.

If however, it results in renouncing the Catholic faith, I think that will be a sad day indeed.

I am sure that you will fall in love with the Divine Liturgy, I did, which is why I went to Divine Liturgy exclusively for about a year and a half and still go every once in a while, but if it is the praxis that you seek, then please do what you can to practice the Eastern praxis while remaining in union with Rome.

Anyways, I am mainly confused as to what you think you can find in Orthodoxy that you can't find in Catholicism?

I think my husband's deal with this has to do with the hurts and wounds he carries from the Catholic Church....and also has to do with intellectual objections to Catholic teaching. He is very drawn to the rabbinical approach to practical morality, and in this I think he finds Orthodoxy more practical- which is an important thing to him...

I don't know that I have an answer to your final question-- that will have to be something that I will have to wait and see...

 

[stivvy]

Call me simple minded, but:

• Jesus Christ instituted the Catholic Church
• He appointed Peter as his vicar
• He committed to us that the Holy Spirit would guide it and protect it from all error
• The Orthodox deny Peter
• That makes the Orthodox in grave error (or call it whatever politically correct term you want)
• For a person to embrace this puts them at great risk

What am I missing?......

OK, the first three points are accepted and true of both faiths as they were one.

The fourth point about denying Peter is incorrect as it reads. The orthodox denied the authoritive succession of Peter as a Supreme ruler of the church. They saw the seat as above the other seats (FIRST amounst equals) but never the over ruling. This was maintained for hundreds of years and then abused by the Bishop of Rome over hundreds of years. Taking things into his control without cosideration of the Bishops of the other 4 churches. Its those abuses that the Orthodox denied and finally schismed due to.

Your extremism due to ignorance of the history over your brothers and sisters in the Orthodox faith makes you no better than them, catholic or not.

P.S. I'm not sure there is a better example of what level of damage has been done over the past 40 - 50 years. These )(&%$&(^$#_ modernists will have to answer for these kids of struggles.

That is real mature statement and testiony of the faith. It isn't modernists that formed the Orthodox. Nor is it the modernist views that persuade those that go to the Orthodox views. The modernist views are to blame for movement into Protestentism. So I am not sure where you are going with that.

 

[geocajun]

Stivvy, what he is saying is that the modernists within the catholic church, have caused sufficient chaos, that otherwise faithful catholics are tempted to find truth elsewhere, doubting the veracity of the catholic faith.

 

[PassthePeace1]

We must never loose site that the orthodox faith and the catholic faith are one faith from originality and from that we cannot say that they are not with God's favor.

So there are some political differences and a couple belief differences. But we are of the same cloth and just as two family members who are fighting, the Father loves and graces them equally. They have done nothing against the Father to change this.

For one to leave the Catholic faith to them is sad, because I do see them as not being able to embrace us and respect us as they once did, but that is their personal faith choice and not a soul damaging one IMHO.

If she has to renounce what Orthodox view as "Catholic errors" that have occurred since the schism...then yeah, it could be soul damaging.

Of course a person's culpability depends on their level of understanding of the Catholic faith....so ulimately that is between Shannon and God.

I guess in the end all we can really do is warn her of the grave errors, and keep her and her family in our prayers.

Peace be with you....Pam

 

[stivvy]

Stivvy, what he is saying is that the modernists within the catholic church, have caused sufficient chaos, that otherwise faithful catholics are tempted to find truth elsewhere, doubting the veracity of the catholic faith.

That is what I thought too, so I stand by my point that a modernist view doesn't persuade one to move toward Orthodox. If anything it moves them in another direction further away from Traditions and the mystical side of the church.

 

[lionroar0]

http://www.likelierthings.com/?p=247

Peace

 

[stivvy]

If she has to renounce what Orthodox view as "Catholic errors" that have occurred since the schism...then yeah, it could be soul damaging.

Of course a person's culpability depends on their level of understanding of the Catholic faith....so ulimately that is between Shannon and God.

I guess in the end all we can really do is warn her of the grave errors, and keep her and her family in our prayers.

Peace be with you....Pam

Let me preface this as being unique to the Orthodox faith. With that said. I do think that the renouncing of the Catholic Faith is not a nice thing and even a hurtful for the Orthodox to do, but is it soul damaging, no. Again, I see it as two siblings in a fight but the no love loss what so ever from the Father.

This is not the official Catholic dogma here, just my logic and my opinion.

 

[AMDG]

You know if it's the Eastern spirituality (and tradition) that is desired, please, please just look into the Eastern Catholic Rites. I know that it's just my opinion, but those Rites cannot be overlooked or dismissed "out-of-hand". They are just Eastern Catholic while we are just a Western Catholic Rite. Sorry again, I see no reason to "throw the baby out with the bath water", when there is another option.

 

[stivvy]

Well, like she says, there is more to it than just the desire to move into the Eastern ways. If there is a marriage consideration with her husband then she has to respect that and so do we. If she is walking fir him to be brought back into the graces of God, who are we to judge that?

Like I said before, it is only sad how the Orthodox may force a denouncing upon her and her family. Doesn't sound like that would be a huge step for Mr RoseofLima. But there is a love there that includes Jesus the Christ!

Ahhhh, what love can get us to do for eachother!

Just promise us your character won't have a beard! Hehehe.