In the beginning ...

[Riberra]

P.S. Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. ---The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing,// but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.

It is very unlikely that God create out of nothing....God surely use a part of His energy when He create.

From where come your belief that God create out of some -preexistence chaos -?Is is the description starting at Genesis 1:2?

The beginning of the material universe created by God is declared by Genesis1:1
Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Everything described after Genesis1:1 relate to events occuring after the initial creation....

 

[Hoghead1]

It is confusing, Riberra, whether Genesis is saying God crated out of nothing and then came first some sort some of chaos he manufactures, or whether it is saying there simply was some pre-existent chaos, of unknown origin, that God went to work on.

 

[Riberra]

It is confusing, Riberra, whether Genesis is saying God crated out of nothing and then came first some sort some of chaos he manufactures, or whether it is saying there simply was some pre-existent chaos, of unknown origin, that God went to work on.

What if in reality the confusion come from a bad translation -which seem to be the case-... That in fact the Earth became the way it is described in Genesis 1:2 because God have flooded the Earth and that the Earth have stayed flooded for millions of years.

we have our word “without form” (tôhû, 8414) meaning, “a desolation.” We also have the word “void” (bôhû 922) meaning, “an undistinguishable ruin“. Documenting the earth “became” a desolate place, became an uninhabitable ruin.

What we get described after that is a restauration/regeneration of the Earth in 6 days by God to its habitable state .....

I know that you don't give credibility to the Gap theory but there is evidence from Bible passages that this is a possibility.

When the Earth was created by God (Genesis 1:1) it is said in Job 38 that the Sons of God (angels) shouted of joy....

Job 38
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Based on the Bible the first inhabitants of the Earth were a group of the Sons of God's (angels) with Lucifer being the leader ...all went good untill something happened... Satan.... rebelling against God...


As demonstrated here with lot of Bible verses.
http://www.worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-age-of-earth.html

Satan's rebellion against God.
http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2014/09/satans-sin.html

 

[Hoghead1]

No, we do not have a based translation. You are playing with the words too much. There is no description here of any process of anything become something else. I know that some want to bludgeon the text so that they can smuggle in an earlier earth here. However, the fact alone that Scripture never speaks of anything like that cleraly rules this out of the question.

 

[Riberra]

No, we do not have a based translation. You are playing with the words too much. There is no description here of any process of anything become something else. I know that some want to bludgeon the text so that they can smuggle in an earlier earth here. However, the fact alone that Scripture never speaks of anything like that cleraly rules this out of the question.

What about Revelation 21:1 ?
Revelation 21
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


What about 2 Peter 3:5-13

2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Hoghead1]

Why are you jumping all over the place and dragging in Rev. 21? I has nothing to do with the issue at hand. When it is talking about a new earth coming, it clearly means something coming in the future. It doesn't have a thing to do with the past.

 

[Riberra]

Why are you jumping all over the place and dragging in Rev. 21? I has nothing to do with the issue at hand. When it is talking about a new earth coming, it clearly means something coming in the future. It doesn't have a thing to do with the past.

Here something which have a thing to do with the past,the present ... and the future.

2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. = Revelation 21

 

[Hoghead1]

Where on earth did this come from, Riberra? Peter is simply talking about this earth before and after the Flood. What it appears you are trying to do is claim the real meaning of teh text is completely opposite from the plain text. That is not at all an acceptable form of exegesis, just a way of bludgeoning texts to make them all suit your pet theory.

 

[Riberra]

Where on earth did this come from, Riberra? Peter is simply talking about this earth before and after the Flood. What it appears you are trying to do is claim the real meaning of teh text is completely opposite from the plain text. That is not at all an acceptable form of exegesis, just a way of bludgeoning texts to make them all suit your pet theory.

You believe that this is referring to Noah's flood ...but it refers to Genesis 1:2
As far as we can remember everything alive does not have perished during Noah's flood... remember those on the Ark survived ....//And the fishs,the whales, the sharks and the other marine creatures in the seas survived ...and the fishs in the lakes survived...

2 Peter 3:6 talk about a total destruction
2 Peter 3
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

In another post you talked about the need to study the Genesis account outside of the box ,i don't think that they have bludgeoning texts.But rather that they have done a good search using Strong's concordace to get the real meaning of the Genesis account as it was presented in the original Hebrew text.

Same Heaven, same earth, just a different dispensation of time.

http://www.worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-age-of-earth.html

Talking about pet theory;
I am pretty sure that you believe in a 7 years stay in Heaven during the Tribulation even if there is no such thing written in the whole Bible.

The False Hope of the "pre-trib Rapture to Heaven":

http://www.worldeventsandthebible.com/2013/01/is-rapture-biblical-teaching.html

 

[Aman777]

Where on earth did this come from, Riberra? Peter is simply talking about this earth before and after the Flood. What it appears you are trying to do is claim the real meaning of teh text is completely opposite from the plain text. That is not at all an acceptable form of exegesis, just a way of bludgeoning texts to make them all suit your pet theory.

He is telling you, as I did, that Adam lived on the first heaven and we live on the 2nd heaven and when the present 2nd heaven is burned, Christians will go to the 3rd heaven. IOW, it is you Mr. Hoghead who cannot understand Scripture. Your education has failed you. You should demand your money back. Amen?

 

[Hoghead1]

Your claim involves way too much twisting of teh text, Riberra, for me to even begin to accept. That's why you interpretation is unique to you, and not found any place else.

 

[Riberra]

Your claim involves way too much twisting of teh text, Riberra, for me to even begin to accept. That's why you interpretation is unique to you, and not found any place else.

If you are referring to my last post #109, It would be appreciated if you can provide a counter argument coming from the Bible.
Can you provide a verse saying that Noah have on bord of the Ark: fishs,whales and sharks and the other sea creatures that obviously have survived Noah's flood as well as the fishs from the lakes and rivers?

Also what makes you believe that the state of the Earth mentionned in Genesis 1:2 is not the result of a destruction caused by a PREVIOUS flood ?The description fit perfecly.A world covered with water which have stayed that way far more longer than Noah's flood...

Genesis 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

[Hoghead1]

I don't understand why you are bringing in Noah here, Ribverra. The Bible makes it pretty clear that he took on board two of every kind of creature. Anyhow, so what?

 

[Riberra]

I don't understand why you are bringing in Noah here, Ribverra. The Bible makes it pretty clear that he took on board two of every kind of creature. Anyhow, so what?

Noah took on board two of every kind of LAND creatures which breath air.It say nothing about marine creatures...fishs,whales,sharks etc...

Genesis 6
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. =every creature living on the surface which breath air including folws flying in the sky.

Genesis 7
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

9 There WENT in two and two UNTO Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

 

[Hoghead1]

How on earth did you come up with that, Riberra. That is not at all what the text says. The text states clearly: "You are to bring living creatures of every kind into the ark to keep them alive with you, two of each kind, a male and a female; two of every kind of bird, beast, and creeping thing are to come to you to be kept alive."

 

[Riberra]

How on earth did you come up with that, Riberra. That is not at all what the text says. The text states clearly: "You are to bring living creatures of every kind into the ark to keep them alive with you, two of each kind, a male and a female; two of every kind of bird, beast, and creeping thing are to come to you to be kept alive."

How whales ,sharks and dolphins were able to come to the Ark ?Maybe they grew legs for the occasion.

 

[ChetSinger]

The problem with Genesis, Foghorn, is that we are dealing here with two contradictory accounts of creation written by two different and two different times. This is consistent with contemporary biblical scholarship. You are speaking as a lay person, and that is OK. However, I am working from the academic world, which is a completely different ball game.

Hello. I have been persuaded that the first two chapters were penned by different hands. I'm referring to the various Tablet Hypotheses. In the Wiseman version, for example, chapter 1 was penned by God and chapters 2 through 4 were penned by Adam. This would explain the different writing styles, and the observation that chapter 2 takes place in the garden where Adam was placed.

In that hypothesis I don't see the two accounts as contradictory, but complementary.

 

[Hoghead1]

The Text, Riberra, does not explain at all how all the other animals could ever be gathered up either.

 

[Hoghead1]

That, however, is not going to fly in the world of biblical studies. I'll send, below, a canned account I wrote of on the Genesis accounts, which will show you

1. 
   
   
   
   
   As I have said before, and will say again, I do not think Genesis can be taken as literal, scientific, or historical.
   When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.
   
   
   
   Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scence, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.
   
   
   
   Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled
   
   “The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.
   
   
   
   Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.
   
   
   
   There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.
   
   
   
   There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.
   
   
   
   There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.
   
   
   
   Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.
   
   
   
   P.S. Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos. ;

 

[Riberra]

The Text, Riberra, does not explain at all how all the other animals could ever be gathered up either.

God bring them in the vinicity of the ark... they entered the ark by walking.