In regards to "Love the sinner, hate the sin"

[ahab]

Hi Spherical time,

Yes, but would a prostitute dare to even mention her profession underneath the huge "We hate prostitution" sign that the two of you have hung?

We didn’t hang that one remember, we hung the ‘God loves you sign’, it was you who hung the ‘we hate prostitution’ sign.

 

[ahab]

Hi Chrysalis Kat,

Unfortunately there are too many here that are advocating hatred and justifying it with Christianity.

Christianity does do that Rom 12:9 “Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.”

 

[ahab]

One has to remember that if we dont sin we are not sinners. If one cant separate the two then Jesus would have been a sinner even though He didnt sin.

 

[UberLutheran]

One has to remember that if we dont sin we are not sinners. If one cant separate the two then Jesus would have been a sinner even though He didnt sin.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we haven't sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[ahab]

Hi Uberlutheran,



Scripture doesn’t support what?

Scripture does support hate, we hate what is evil and love what is good. Rom 12:9 “Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.” No, what is evil is to be hated, some seem to have decided to hate the scripture that indicates what is evil or accuse the poster who points it out of being hateful.



1 John 1:8-10 “ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we haven't sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



But who is saying that we have no sin? I don’t think anyone is saying that; some are disputing whether a particular sin is a sin. (or are they saying they have no sin?)



Peace

 

[kdet]

It's not a "lifestyle"! For many women it's the only means by which they can survive!!!

And whom do you despise more? The prostitute or the men using the prostitute?

I did not say I despised the prostitute or anyone else. And in America there are many other ways that women can survive other than through prostitution. When you make a atatement like that you are enabling these women to believe that they have no other choice and they do.

 

[Spherical Time]

Hi Spherical time,

We didn’t hang that one remember, we hung the ‘God loves you sign’, it was you who hung the ‘we hate prostitution’ sign.

Really? Where did I do that? Can you quote me as saying that I hate prostitution? As far as I can tell, you don't know my position on protitution at all, which makes this a baseless attack.

 

[kdet]

Really? Where did I do that? Can you quote me as saying that I hate prostitution? As far as I can tell, you don't know my position on protitution at all, which makes this a baseless attack.

Before you jump to conclusions you might want to consider that you misunderstood him. I believe he was saying that you said that we, speaking of Ahab and myself, hate prostitution, which is NOT what we said, we said we hated the sin of prostitution. So there is no "baseless attack". Sheesh the drama. Can we please just try and have a discussion without resorting to "if you disagree with me you are attacking me" syndrome?

 

[MidnightBlue]

THe "Hate the sin, Love the sinner" mentality is baloney. It is impossible to do both.

I don't think so. For instance, I can hate the homophobia, but love the homophobe.

I think the problem is that most of the people who go around saying they hate the sin, but love the sinner, are at the same time busy demonizing homosexuals for political purposes, and campaigning to make sure homosexuals don't have the same civil rights as heterosexuals. Those actions betray hatred and loathing, which are incompatible with love.

Suppose the Emperor Nero had said, "I love Christians. I'm taking action against them for their own good and for the good of society." Would anybody be stupid enough to believe that Nero really did love Christians?

Actions speak louder than words. Homosexuals would have to be stupid not to notice that "hate the sin, love the sinner" is almost always something said by people whose actions demonstrate that they do, indeed, hate the "sinner", even if they've managed to convince themselves that they don't.

 

[fejao]

I don't think so. For instance, I can hate the homophobia, but love the homophobe.

I think the problem is that most of the people who go around saying they hate the sin, but love the sinner, are at the same time busy demonizing homosexuals for political purposes, and campaigning to make sure homosexuals don't have the same civil rights as heterosexuals. Those actions betray hatred and loathing, which are incompatible with love.

Suppose the Emperor Nero had said, "I love Christians. I'm taking action against them for their own good and for the good of society." Would anybody be stupid enough to believe that Nero really did love Christians?

Actions speak louder than words. Homosexuals would have to be stupid not to notice that "hate the sin, love the sinner" is almost always something said by people whose actions demonstrate that they do, indeed, hate the "sinner", even if they've managed to convince themselves that they don't.

Very well reasoned post, God Bless .

Fejao x

 

[Spherical Time]

Before you jump to conclusions you might want to consider that you misunderstood him. I believe he was saying that you said that we, speaking of Ahab and myself, hate prostitution, which is NOT what we said, we said we hated the sin of prostitution. So there is no "baseless attack". Sheesh the drama. Can we please just try and have a discussion without resorting to "if you disagree with me you are attacking me" syndrome?

So, you don't hate prostitution, you encourage and nurture prostitution, and promote it whenever possible? That sin part, the intangible bit that makes it bad but is completely removed from the action of prostitution, that's what you hate?

Prostitution is the action, and the action is usually the sin. For instance, that a girl is a kleptomaniac is not a sin, the action of her theft is sin.

You've said that you hate the sin, specifically kdet said:

I hate the sin of prostitution

. . . and then you compared your response to hers, but now you say you don't hate prositiution. How is is that you can claim to not hate prostitution (the act mind you, not a person that practices it) but hate the sin of prostitution?

Perhaps I missunderstood, please explain this apparent contradiction in terms.

 

[DarthMom]

I think it is perfectly possible to hate the sin and not the sinner. Many chrisitans show this is in fact an absolute truth. But the problem lies in the others', those who can spout the maxim, but not the actions. Actions speak louder than words, if it walks like a gay hating duck and talks like a gay hating duck, etc etc....

For example, let's take prostitution, like it is being used here. If you are really just trying to help the prostitute, and love them liek you should, it would be obvious. You would NOT however, use words like filthy, disgusting, evil etc to describe them. You wouldn't seem to have a strange fixation on their lifestyle, and a lifetime devotion to suppressing them, but instead, using love to show them the way you believe will be healthier for them. You get more flies with honey. (OK i promise, 3 is my maximum for cheesy cliches.)

 

[Lucubratus]

I don't think so. For instance, I can hate the homophobia, but love the homophobe.

I think the problem is that most of the people who go around saying they hate the sin, but love the sinner, are at the same time busy demonizing homosexuals for political purposes, and campaigning to make sure homosexuals don't have the same civil rights as heterosexuals. Those actions betray hatred and loathing, which are incompatible with love.

Suppose the Emperor Nero had said, "I love Christians. I'm taking action against them for their own good and for the good of society." Would anybody be stupid enough to believe that Nero really did love Christians?

Actions speak louder than words. Homosexuals would have to be stupid not to notice that "hate the sin, love the sinner" is almost always something said by people whose actions demonstrate that they do, indeed, hate the "sinner", even if they've managed to convince themselves that they don't.

I second that. I see protest signs all around that clearly demonstrate the Hate of the "person" not the sin itself, and these are so-called Church going Christians.
Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[markbelieves]

You didn't have to say that you ignored the fact that she was getting help, you did ignore the fact that she was getting help. It was part of the original example that I gave you.

And if you think that I'm saying that you should tell her that stealing is fine, then you're putting words in my mouth.

Here is a question: how does your statement that you hate stealing help this girl overcome her problem? She already knows that it's wrong, she already is trying to get help and to change. What does your commentary offer her that she doesn't already have except the knowledge that you hate something that is currently a part of her life, whether she likes it or not.

I never said that saying "I hate stealing" will help her. Who said that? The activity is wrong and what I dislike is how it impacts her life; you know, court, jail, nasty things like that. The point was that you can dislike the activity and still love the person involved in it. This is what drives you to help them. And helping them does not mean I am ignoring any help they are currently receiving.
My original reply to you was to the question of how it is possible to hate the sin and not the sinner. I think I have explained my position several times now. Maybe more will help. I don't like drug addiction, I can love the addict.
You seem to want to lump me with those who just shout hate statements at people they thenk are sinning. Sorry, thats not me. Maybe someone else that fits the mold of who you want to debate will reply.

Mark

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Hate the sin and not the sinner is a precept which though easy enough to understand is rarely practiced, and that is why the poison of hatred spreads in the world. - Mahatma Ghandi

 

[ahab]

Hi Sperical time,

Really? Where did I do that? Can you quote me as saying that I hate prostitution? As far as I can tell, you don't know my position on protitution at all, which makes this a baseless attack.

Well I said we love the prostitute and hate the sin of prostitution. The prostitute may also hate the prostitution who knows. I suggest that God loves the prostitute is the revelation that what God wants to impart to us and to the prostitute. Once the prostitute knows God love them they can address leaving the lifestyle that God does not intend. The ‘hate prostitution sign’ or hate the sin is not for prostitutes, its for Christians, the ‘God loves you sign’ or love the sinner is for the prostitute.

peace

 

[ahab]

Hi midnightblue,

I think the problem is that most of the people who go around saying they hate the sin, but love the sinner, are at the same time busy demonizing homosexuals for political purposes, and campaigning to make sure homosexuals don't have the same civil rights as heterosexuals. Those actions betray hatred and loathing, which are incompatible with love.

Not if the same-sex sex act is a sin and a barrier to the Kingdom as the scripture warns, in that case encouraging gay issues cant be loving, its all about what one believes.

Actions speak louder than words. Homosexuals would have to be stupid not to notice that "hate the sin, love the sinner" is almost always something said by people whose actions demonstrate that they do, indeed, hate the "sinner", even if they've managed to convince themselves that they don't.

No they don’t hate the sinner, the sinner perceives that they hate the sinner and not the sin because they don’t recognise the sin. But in fact they are mostly not going around hating the sin, but challenging the sinner promoting the sin.


Peace

 

[ahab]

Exactly kdet, if one cant separate the sin, prostitution, from the sinner the prostitute, or from any sin we fall short on then we either have to love the sinner and the sin or hate the sinner and the sin.

So if we cant separate the sin and the sinner, when Jesus tells us to stop sinning John 5:14,

1 Cor 15:34, 2 Peter 2:14 “ we have to stop being who we are. In Christ Jesus we are a new creation 2 Cor 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

 

[MidnightBlue]

I think the problem is that most of the people who go around saying they hate the sin, but love the sinner, are at the same time busy demonizing homosexuals for political purposes, and campaigning to make sure homosexuals don't have the same civil rights as heterosexuals. Those actions betray hatred and loathing, which are incompatible with love.

Not if the same-sex sex act is a sin and a barrier to the Kingdom as the scripture warns, in that case encouraging gay issues cant be loving, its all about what one believes.

I might buy that argument if the same people were trying to limit the civil rights of divorced people. But when someone says, in effect, "As a sinner, you should have fewer rights than I do," that's clearly not loving. In fact, it's a sinful attitude itself. You don't have to encourage homosexuality to believe that homosexuals are entitled to the same treatment under the law as heterosexuals. Dress it up however they will, spin it any way they want, the anti-gay activists are not behaving in a loving manner.

Even the comparison to prostitution fails. Prostitutes, after all, are permitted to marry -- provided they're heterosexual prostitutes -- and nobody has suggested that they should not be permitted to marry.

 

[ahab]

Hi midnightblue,

I might buy that argument if the same people were trying to limit the civil rights of divorced people.

Hang on, we are talking about the separating the sin from the sinner, not looking at the rights of the person who sins or not. If we cant do that we get nowhere because…

But when someone says, in effect, "As a sinner, you should have fewer rights than I do," that's clearly not loving. In fact, it's a sinful attitude itself.

No I disagree, that depends on the sin. If a thief gets put in prison he has less rights than other people wouldn’t you say?

Dress it up however they will, spin it any way they want, the anti-gay activists are not behaving in a loving manner.

But that’s not what you said, you said homosexuals should be treated the same as heterosexuals. Who are gays if not homosexuals who indulge in same–sex sex and lifestyles? That’s different because there are celibate homosexual Christians and ex-gay Christians, so anti-gay is different from homosexual and heterosexual. But IMO gays would have less rights because they shouldn't have rightds that are sinful, its unloving to have harmful laws.

Even the comparison to prostitution fails. Prostitutes, after all, are permitted to marry -- provided they're heterosexual prostitutes -- and nobody has suggested that they should not be permitted to marry.

But marriage isn’t a sin, it’s the union of a man and a woman, but prostitution like same-sex sex is defined by the teachings of Jesus as a sin.

peace