In Norway it is OK for homosexuals to marry in the church

Dogbean

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I would just like to point out that it's because of people like Tackleberry that I left the church in the first place. In Nowheresville, SC Tackleberry's views are held by most of the population making my town a very dangerous and even life threatening place for my boyfriend and myself. I just wanted to take the time to point out that hate starts with discrimination which leads inevitably to death in some form or fashion. I think that we would all agree that death is a generally bad thing preticularly for the person who was (beforehand) living. So perhaps radical fundamentalist doctrine can be interpreted as an all around bad idea being that it spreads hate leading to death? Just last year Sean Kennedy was murdered in Greenville, SC because he was gay and because people in SC think the way that they do, the murderer got off with very little (if any from what I remember) time. I think that we should all take some time to consider the various impacts our words and thoughts can have on society as a whole. Just a thought.
You don't know a thing about me, except that I believe in the Bible. I don't endorse what you discussed here. They should not have killed that gay guy, and the murderer should have gotten death penalty for what he did. So don't presume to think I'm spreading hate and discrimination. I don't endorse the sin of homosexuality, but I love homosexuals as I would love anyone else. Just because my God doesn't like the sin doesn't mean I don't like the person. I am sorry you left the church, but you have to understand that it is an unfortunate fact that some people take matters wrongly into their own hands, and some such people do rash things that give Christianity a bad name. Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't mean I'm a hate monger who promotes the murder of gays.
 
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catlover

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They love to literally interpret all Scripture that talks about love, equality, all the "feel good" stuff, but conveniently find ways to "interpret" the tough passages that condemn their sin in some other vague way so as to say that the Bible does not condemn their sin. Then they call it "their interpretation" so they can claim that they are Bible believing Christians that practice homosexuality willfully.

I know the fundamentalists have taken the "feel good" part of Scripture, many ignore the part about judging not and rock throwing.
 
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D.W.Washburn

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Yes, Tackleberry. That is the typical argument posed by homophobes who do not want to give up their sin.

Thank you, Artybloke, for saving me from having to make the sarcastic reply. I very nearly posted a nearly identical post, though I think I would have used the word "legalistic" in it somehwere.
 
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D.W.Washburn

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You don't know a thing about me, except that I believe in the Bible. I don't endorse what you discussed here. They should not have killed that gay guy, and the murderer should have gotten death penalty for what he did. So don't presume to think I'm spreading hate and discrimination. I don't endorse the sin of homosexuality, but I love homosexuals as I would love anyone else. Just because my God doesn't like the sin doesn't mean I don't like the person. I am sorry you left the church, but you have to understand that it is an unfortunate fact that some people take matters wrongly into their own hands, and some such people do rash things that give Christianity a bad name. Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't mean I'm a hate monger who promotes the murder of gays.

You object to gwdboi assuming to know your heart and yet...

Yes, Regular Guy. That is the typical argument posed by homosexuals who do not want to give up their sin. They love to literally interpret all Scripture that talks about love, equality, all the "feel good" stuff, but conveniently find ways to "interpret" the tough passages that condemn their sin in some other vague way so as to say that the Bible does not condemn their sin. Then they call it "their interpretation" so they can claim that they are Bible believing Christians that practice homosexuality willfully.

...in a post like this you pretend to know the hearts and motives of homosexuals who disagree with your interpretation of the Bible.
 
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KCKID

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You don't know a thing about me, except that I believe in the Bible. I don't endorse what you discussed here. They should not have killed that gay guy, and the murderer should have gotten death penalty for what he did. So don't presume to think I'm spreading hate and discrimination. I don't endorse the sin of homosexuality, but I love homosexuals as I would love anyone else. Just because my God doesn't like the sin doesn't mean I don't like the person. I am sorry you left the church, but you have to understand that it is an unfortunate fact that some people take matters wrongly into their own hands, and some such people do rash things that give Christianity a bad name. Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't mean I'm a hate monger who promotes the murder of gays.

gwdboi said, and I agree with him, that we should all take some time to consider the various impacts our words and thoughts (and this includes you, Tackleberry) can have on society as a whole. That you and others are using the words (of men, mind) from the Bible (a book) in such a hurtful manner to bring harm on others (and you are) then you are just as guilty as those that physically harm others. Everyone that has ever bashed or killed a homosexual knows (even if they are not consiously aware) that God (supposedly) hates 'gays' and would be on their side. Why? Because of the impact of the words and the thoughts of Christians that have impacted on society as a whole.

Your words above say 'no no', Tackleberry, but there is 'yes yes' in your posts even if only in spirit. You obviously DO hate 'gay' people. No mere words from a book can be held responsible for the venom your posts exude. The red bolded font you use doesn't help either. Furthermore, Christianity that promotes 'gay hating' SHOULD be given a bad name. It encourages thoughtless thugs to beat up on homosexuals with a degree of Christian 'justification'.
 
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KCKID

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Such hypocrites, calling people "judgmental" and "hateful" then preceding to bear false witness against others.

Ishida, it would be helpful if you were to name the person whose post you're addressing. It would be additionally helpful if you would add something more to your one-liners. WHO, for instance, is supposedly bearing false witness against WHOM? If it's me that is the hypocrite then please tell me how I'm doing this.
 
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Dogbean

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...in a post like this you pretend to know the hearts and motives of homosexuals who disagree with your interpretation of the Bible.
I just wish people could look past their sin and see Christ reaching out to them. It's frustrating, and it's sad that people reject the Savior. Many are clearly more focused on pleasing themselves and doing what they want. Remember Christ said if anyone wants to follow Him they have to deny themselves.
 
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Dogbean

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gwdboi said, and I agree with him, that we should all take some time to consider the various impacts our words and thoughts (and this includes you, Tackleberry) can have on society as a whole. That you and others are using the words (of men, mind) from the Bible (a book) in such a hurtful manner to bring harm on others (and you are) then you are just as guilty as those that physically harm others. Everyone that has ever bashed or killed a homosexual knows (even if they are not consiously aware) that God (supposedly) hates 'gays' and would be on their side. Why? Because of the impact of the words and the thoughts of Christians that have impacted on society as a whole.

Your words above say 'no no', Tackleberry, but there is 'yes yes' in your posts even if only in spirit. You obviously DO hate 'gay' people. No mere words from a book can be held responsible for the venom your posts exude. The red bolded font you use doesn't help either. Furthermore, Christianity that promotes 'gay hating' SHOULD be given a bad name. It encourages thoughtless thugs to beat up on homosexuals with a degree of Christian 'justification'.
I use "maroon" colored arial font simply because I like it. I use it in all my posts. Nothing is meant by it. And I would not be part of a church that practiced gay hating as you say. If you don't like what I have to say, take it to God because I simply got it from the Scriptures. If you don't like it, that does not mean I hate gays. I love everyone, and would love to see everyone come to Christ. I sometimes get a little worked up at the ludicrous posts of people like Big Bad Wolf, but I don't hate you guys at all! This is a place to discuss homosexuality from both a Biblical standpoint and a standpoint of people who reject the Bible as well. Just realize that if you don't like what God says, don't shoot the messenger. God hates sin, but sinners he loves, as John 3:16 says. You are getting the wrong idea about me.

When people confronted me about my sin, I felt hated as well, until I saw that they were right. The difference between a true believer and an unbeliever is the true believer is disgusted by sin, both his/her own and the sin of others. Unbelievers don't care, and are more focused on holding onto what they want, and pleasing themselves.
 
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KCKID

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I use "maroon" colored arial font simply because I like it. I use it in all my posts. Nothing is meant by it.

Fair enough. I also like to be an individual with Verdana blue.

And I would not be part of a church that practiced gay hating as you say. If you don't like what I have to say, take it to God because I simply got it from the Scriptures. If you don't like it, that does not mean I hate gays. I love everyone, and would love to see everyone come to Christ. I sometimes get a little worked up at the ludicrous posts of people like Big Bad Wolf, but I don't hate you guys at all! This is a place to discuss homosexuality from both a Biblical standpoint and a standpoint of people who reject the Bible as well. Just realize that if you don't like what God says, don't shoot the messenger. God hates sin, but sinners he loves, as John 3:16 says. You are getting the wrong idea about me.
When people confronted me about my sin, I felt hated as well, until I saw that they were right. The difference between a true believer and an unbeliever is the true believer is disgusted by sin, both his/her own and the sin of others. Unbelievers don't care, and are more focused on holding onto what they want, and pleasing themselves.
And thanks for the rest of your post.
 
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Dogbean

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Fair enough. I also like to be an individual with Verdana blue.


And thanks for the rest of your post.
And thank you for having an open mind, and not being hostile like some others here. :)
God bless you.
 
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gwdboi

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You don't know a thing about me, except that I believe in the Bible. I don't endorse what you discussed here. They should not have killed that gay guy, and the murderer should have gotten death penalty for what he did. So don't presume to think I'm spreading hate and discrimination. I don't endorse the sin of homosexuality, but I love homosexuals as I would love anyone else. Just because my God doesn't like the sin doesn't mean I don't like the person. I am sorry you left the church, but you have to understand that it is an unfortunate fact that some people take matters wrongly into their own hands, and some such people do rash things that give Christianity a bad name. Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't mean I'm a hate monger who promotes the murder of gays.

Please understand that it was not my intention to make an accusation, I just want people (yourself included) to realize that when it comes to interpreting sacred texts interpretations are exactly that. There is no one true interpretation (or at least not one that everyone can agree on). I always qualify my statements with the fact that they are my opinions (unless I cite a source) because quite frankly I think we can all agree that none of us completely understands the universe and thus we may very well have a few incorrect assumptions and it would be best to not present what we say as infallible. While I do understand that it is a common christian belief that the Bible is infallible, human interpretation surely is fallible. So, perhaps we should consider that whenever we discuss something as "word of god" or not.
 
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artybloke

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Clever, artybloke. Real clever.

Ta muchly!

The thing is, that I've seen so many people hiding behind their interpretation of the Bible, using it to justify hateful pronouncements, that it's terribly easy to do this. Probably too easy...

There so millions of Christians around the world, and they all read the Bible differently from one another. Whether it's the Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Orthodox who say it's OK to baptise infants; or the Baptist who says you have to baptise adults; or there's the long dispute over whether people should or should not speak in tongues; or what it means to say Jesus is coming back. Issues about Holy Communion had people killing each other all over Europe just a few hundred years ago!

I know that the dominionist Christian likes to claim that they and only they have the right interpretation of scripture. Their's is always "what scripture plainly says" whether the bread and the wine really is the body and blood of Christ or just a remembrance. This issue is no different from that: except in one thing.

I don't pretend to know the true-for-all-time interpretation of scripture. I've done enough research on it to doubt the traditional interpretation of those passages; but there's always the possibility I'm wrong.

But we're not saved by having the correct theology, or the correct teaching about this or that moral issue. We're saved by grace. And that doesn't change whether we are wrong about the Bible says or right about what it says. That's what I think the dominionist position can't stand, because ultimately it's about power. The priest/preacher/"born-again" trying to control who's in and who's out.

Whether my gay, lesbian, bi-sexual or transsexual brothers and sisters have their interpretation of the Bible right or wrong is beside the point. They are still my brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
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ChaliceThunder

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I just wish people could look past their sin and see Christ reaching out to them. It's frustrating, and it's sad that people reject the Savior. Many are clearly more focused on pleasing themselves and doing what they want. Remember Christ said if anyone wants to follow Him they have to deny themselves.

If you did the same thing, you might see Christ reaching out to you - and you could stop pleasing yourself by persecuting others.
 
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ChaliceThunder

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Just realize that if you don't like what God says, don't shoot the messenger. God hates sin, but sinners he loves, as John 3:16 says.

While nobody wants to shoot the messenger, you are indeed saying something that the Scripture does not say.

John 3:16 does NOT state that God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.
You are just using a Christian buzz-phrase and trying to pass it off as Scripture.
 
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Dogbean

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Please understand that it was not my intention to make an accusation, I just want people (yourself included) to realize that when it comes to interpreting sacred texts interpretations are exactly that. There is no one true interpretation (or at least not one that everyone can agree on). I always qualify my statements with the fact that they are my opinions (unless I cite a source) because quite frankly I think we can all agree that none of us completely understands the universe and thus we may very well have a few incorrect assumptions and it would be best to not present what we say as infallible. While I do understand that it is a common christian belief that the Bible is infallible, human interpretation surely is fallible. So, perhaps we should consider that whenever we discuss something as "word of god" or not.
And respectfully, I think that the stuff I changed to red is a common excuse used by people to get around parts of the Bible they don't like; they just say "well I interpret it this way." That makes sense for stuff like eschatology, predestination, age of accountability, things that are not exactly clear. But the passages on homosexuality are fairly clear; there's really no way around it. They are as clear as the teachings on salvation, love, unity, charity, profanity, etc. I don't see any real way around it; I can't see how any Bible believing Christian can endorse homosexual acts.
 
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Dogbean

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While nobody wants to shoot the messenger, you are indeed saying something that the Scripture does not say.

John 3:16 does NOT state that God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.
You are just using a Christian buzz-phrase and trying to pass it off as Scripture.
What I meant was that John 3:16 says that God loves everyone. I worded my post poorly. But you should have seen that rather than look for little technicalities to pick apart, IMHO.
 
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OllieFranz

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And respectfully, I think that the stuff I changed to red is a common excuse used by people to get around parts of the Bible they don't like; they just say "well I interpret it this way."

When you say that it is "just an excuse used by people to get around parts of the Bible..." you are at best claiming that they are in denial like addicts , and at worst accusing them of outright deception.

You are leaving out the fact that the only way to understand anything is to interpret it. Raw data coming from our eyes, our ears, and our fingertips must be interpreted from light to images, from sound to words, from pressure,heat and pain to texture, temperature and hardness.

Words must be fitted together into sentences. Alternative meanings of those words must be considered to find the most appropriate, etc. It is extremely unlikely that any two people can agree on every aspect of every interpretation.

Still, on things that are relatively clear (and that includes the vast majority of their shared experiences), they can agree on the "underlying truth" and even on most of the details. This is what what makes communication possible.

Because of this agreement in the majority, and how automatic it is, it is jarring to find disagreement in something that seems as clear and unambiguous to a person as the things he does agree with the second person on.

The first impulse is to assume that the person does agree but is lying about it. The second impulse is to assume that emotional (or spiritual) issues are clouding the other person's ability to analyze the raw data objectively, resulting in a faulty conclusion. In many cases we can reject these possibilities and move on to possibilities that involve different legitimate interpretations of the same phenomena.

If we can not immediately reject those first two possibilities, it is possible that the other person is lying or is emotionally (and/or spiritually) blocked from true understanding. It is also possible that we are the "other person" who is blocked. It is also possible that neither party has found the "underlying truth" in the issue, either because both are too emotionally (spiritually) distracted, or because there is not enough data and both are adding more (but different one from the other) data by inference and analogy.

That makes sense for stuff like eschatology, predestination, age of accountability, things that are not exactly clear. But the passages on homosexuality are fairly clear; there's really no way around it. They are as clear as the teachings on salvation, love, unity, charity, profanity, etc. I don't see any real way around it; I can't see how any Bible believing Christian can endorse homosexual acts.

The teachings on sexual immorality are mostly clear. Clear enough that for most sexual situations Christians can agree whether an action is immoral. There are passages in the Bible that condemn sexually immoral acts which, as described, are "homosexual" in nature. Just as it does sexually immoral acts which are "heterosexual" in nature. In all cases, the acts described would be just as immoral if the partners involved were the opposite sex as if they were the same sex. It is the act, and the circumstances that determine the immorality, not the partner (unless the nature of the partner is part of the circumstances, such as a temple prostitute, or someone married to a third person)

Rape is immoral whether the victim is male or female. Participating in "fertility rites" is idolatry whether with a priest or a priestess of the pagan god. Adultery is wrong whether with your neighbor's wife, or with your neighbor's husband.

Every time the Bible describes a sexual act it describes a sexual sin. But not all sex is sin. We can see the evidence that men blessed of God have had sex within their marriages (though we are not presented with the act itself -- other than in the euphemistic phrase "XXX knew his wife and she conceived...") Paul (in 1 Corinthians 7) even suggests marriage as the way to get a handle on our innate sex drives so that we would have no excuse for unbridled lust.

Nowhere in any teaching on marriage in the Bible, is there a condition set as to who may or may not covenant a marriage. Generally, if the society saw a couple as being married, so does the Bible. Fraudulent bait-and-switch tactics did not invalidate a marriage. Bigamous second marriages were still considered valid, etc.

We don't "endorse" "homosexual acts" any more than we "endorse" "heterosexual acts." Whether the acts are moral or immoral depends on the circumstances involved. When they are a part of a loving, covenanted marriage, they are no one's business but the partners in that marriage.
 
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KCKID

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When you say that it is "just an excuse used by people to get around parts of the Bible..." you are at best claiming that they are in denial like addicts , and at worst accusing them of outright deception.

You are leaving out the fact that the only way to understand anything is to interpret it. Raw data coming from our eyes, our ears, and our fingertips must be interpreted from light to images, from sound to words, from pressure,heat and pain to texture, temperature and hardness.

Words must be fitted together into sentences. Alternative meanings of those words must be considered to find the most appropriate, etc. It is extremely unlikely that any two people can agree on every aspect of every interpretation.

Still, on things that are relatively clear (and that includes the vast majority of their shared experiences), they can agree on the "underlying truth" and even on most of the details. This is what what makes communication possible.

Because of this agreement in the majority, and how automatic it is, it is jarring to find disagreement in something that seems as clear and unambiguous to a person as the things he does agree with the second person on.

The first impulse is to assume that the person does agree but is lying about it. The second impulse is to assume that emotional (or spiritual) issues are clouding the other person's ability to analyze the raw data objectively, resulting in a faulty conclusion. In many cases we can reject these possibilities and move on to possibilities that involve different legitimate interpretations of the same phenomena.

If we can not immediately reject those first two possibilities, it is possible that the other person is lying or is emotionally (and/or spiritually) blocked from true understanding. It is also possible that we are the "other person" who is blocked. It is also possible that neither party has found the "underlying truth" in the issue, either because both are too emotionally (spiritually) distracted, or because there is not enough data and both are adding more (but different one from the other) data by inference and analogy.



The teachings on sexual immorality are mostly clear. Clear enough that for most sexual situations Christians can agree whether an action is immoral. There are passages in the Bible that condemn sexually immoral acts which, as described, are "homosexual" in nature. Just as it does sexually immoral acts which are "heterosexual" in nature. In all cases, the acts described would be just as immoral if the partners involved were the opposite sex as if they were the same sex. It is the act, and the circumstances that determine the immorality, not the partner (unless the nature of the partner is part of the circumstances, such as a temple prostitute, or someone married to a third person)

Rape is immoral whether the victim is male or female. Participating in "fertility rites" is idolatry whether with a priest or a priestess of the pagan god. Adultery is wrong whether with your neighbor's wife, or with your neighbor's husband.

Every time the Bible describes a sexual act it describes a sexual sin. But not all sex is sin. We can see the evidence that men blessed of God have had sex within their marriages (though we are not presented with the act itself -- other than in the euphemistic phrase "XXX knew his wife and she conceived...") Paul (in 1 Corinthians 7) even suggests marriage as the way to get a handle on our innate sex drives so that we would have no excuse for unbridled lust.

Nowhere in any teaching on marriage in the Bible, is there a condition set as to who may or may not covenant a marriage. Generally, if the society saw a couple as being married, so does the Bible. Fraudulent bait-and-switch tactics did not invalidate a marriage. Bigamous second marriages were still considered valid, etc.

We don't "endorse" "homosexual acts" any more than we "endorse" "heterosexual acts." Whether the acts are moral or immoral depends on the circumstances involved. When they are a part of a loving, covenanted marriage, they are no one's business but the partners in that marriage.

It's great that you were able to reason out all of the above and present it to the rest of us in a manner that we can understand. That would have been most difficult for many of us but you said it very well. Well done.
 
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