In Arminianism, God excludes some people from salvation

[Skala]

In Arminianism, and all forms of non-Calvinism except Universalism, God excludes some people from salvation.

Its God who designed salvation. It's God who set up the parameters of salvation to be "believe". He could have easily made no parameters and just saved everyone if He wanted to.

Being God, it seems easy to give himself what He wants. Doesn't he want to save everyone? (That's what Arminians claim) He could have easily done so. He could have simply made the parameter for salvation "be human", but instead, he made a parameter that He KNEW (being omniscient) would result in millions of people going to hell.

Why set up a parameter that he KNOWS will result in less than everyone being saved? I mean, if little ole' me can figure this out, surely God knew what He was getting himself into.

The only logical, honest, and consistent conclusion is that in every soteriological view except universalism, God excludes people from salvation.

Anyone who claims otherwise is being dishonest.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In Arminianism, and all forms of non-Calvinism except Universalism, God excludes some people from salvation.

Its God who designed salvation. It's God who set up the parameters of salvation to be "believe". He could have easily made no parameters and just saved everyone if He wanted to.

Being God, it seems easy to give himself what He wants. Doesn't he want to save everyone? (That's what Arminians claim) He could have easily done so. He could have simply made the parameter for salvation "be human", but instead, he made a parameter that He KNEW (being omniscient) would result in millions of people going to hell.

Why set up a parameter that he KNOWS will result in less than everyone being saved? I mean, if little ole' me can figure this out, surely God knew what He was getting himself into.

The only logical, honest, and consistent conclusion is that in every soteriological view except universalism, God excludes people from salvation.

Anyone who claims otherwise is being dishonest.

And that isn't even close to the argument.

 

[Skala]

And that isn't even close to the argument.

In your soteriological view, does God exclude unbelievers from salvation? (ie, does He save them?)

Does God save unbelievers? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

 

[bling]

In Arminianism, and all forms of non-Calvinism except Universalism, God excludes some people from salvation.

The Bible does not specifically address those that never had the opportunity, so we do have to go on our knowledge of God’s Love, justice, fairness and the objectives.

People that never have the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective would be in a safe condition (similar to Adam and Eve before they sinned) and not needing to be “saved”. This would include babies that died before they matured.

The “problem” is mature adults that never had the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love will unfortunately enter heaven with only child for wonderful parent type love.

Its God who designed salvation. It's God who set up the parameters of salvation to be "believe". He could have easily made no parameters and just saved everyone if He wanted to.

You seem to be limiting God “salvation” to going to heaven, when it includes the much greater gift of becoming like God Himself in that we have Godly type Love. The gift of this Love cannot be made instinctive to man (a robotic type love) nor would it be Loving for God to force it on man, so it has to come as a result of a free will choice with truly likely alternatives.

So for God to truly gift humans with Godly type Love, they have to be willing to humbly accept pure charity, which is not “easy” as you propose.

Being God, it seems easy to give himself what He wants. Doesn't he want to save everyone? (That's what Arminians claim) He could have easily done so. He could have simply made the parameter for salvation "be human", but instead, he made a parameter that He KNEW (being omniscient) would result in millions of people going to hell.

There are just some things even God cannot do. God cannot make more Christs, since Christ was not made and thus Christ always possessed Godly type Love. God can create beings that can become like Deity in that they have Godly type Love, but for some of them to humbly truly accept this gift, they have to humbly accept His Love in the form of forgiveness of their huge debt of sin and some being with the free will they need to make this choice will refuse to wimp out and humble themselves.

Why set up a parameter that he KNOWS will result in less than everyone being saved? I mean, if little ole' me can figure this out, surely God knew what He was getting himself into.

This world the way it is right now is the best place and system for willing humans to humbly accept God’s charity. Yes, many will refuse, since many want to be loved for who they are and do not like the idea of being Loved in spite of who they are.

The only logical, honest, and consistent conclusion is that in every soteriological view except universalism, God excludes people from salvation.

Are you blaming God for people, of their own free will, choosing to remain good soldiers, fight to the death and not surrender to their enemy (God)? Yes, they have huge war crimes deserving of a torturous death even if they surrender, but God just wants to shower them with gifts if they would accept them, but it has to be their choice. Christ teaches us “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” so if you accept forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt you will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). Godly type Love has to be the result of a free will real choice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In your soteriological view, does God exclude unbelievers from salvation? (ie, does He save them?)

Of course, which isn't really the issue.

Does God save unbelievers? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

You know me better than that. 1 Cor 1:21 tells us that God is well pleased to save those who believe. Let me be clear: ONLY those who believe.

But, the issue isn't about WHO is excluded from salvation, but HOW one is. That's the issue and always has been.

RT claims that God elected certain individuals for no discernable reason for salvation, and therefore regenerated them and gave them the gift of faith before He gifted them with the gift of eternal life. (merry Christmas)

So, in RT, the exclusion is arbitrary. Individuals have no responsibility nor accountability at all in the RT view. God does it all. Man can do nothing, which is refuted by Paul's answer to the jailer (Acts 16:31).

The Bible presents a vastly different picture. Man sinned (Rom 3:23), and was separated from God (Gen 2:17) with no ability to restore relationship with Him. God, in grace, provided the means for relationship with Him, through His Son, who died for everyone (Heb 2:9), paying their sin debt (Heb 9:12) and providing eternal life freely for all who believe in Christ for it (Jn 6:40).

In the Biblical view, man is fully responsible and accountable for receiving the free gift of eternal life through faith in God's Son, Jesus Christ. Rom 1:21

 

[Skala]

Of course, which isn't really the issue.


You know me better than that. 1 Cor 1:21 tells us that God is well pleased to save those who believe. Let me be clear: ONLY those who believe.

But, the issue isn't about WHO is excluded from salvation, but HOW one is. That's the issue and always has been.

RT claims that God elected certain individuals for no discernable reason for salvation, and therefore regenerated them and gave them the gift of faith before He gifted them with the gift of eternal life. (merry Christmas)

So, in RT, the exclusion is arbitrary. Individuals have no responsibility nor accountability at all in the RT view. God does it all. Man can do nothing, which is refuted by Paul's answer to the jailer (Acts 16:31).

The Bible presents a vastly different picture. Man sinned (Rom 3:23), and was separated from God (Gen 2:17) with no ability to restore relationship with Him. God, in grace, provided the means for relationship with Him, through His Son, who died for everyone (Heb 2:9), paying their sin debt (Heb 9:12) and providing eternal life freely for all who believe in Christ for it (Jn 6:40).

In the Biblical view, man is fully responsible and accountable for receiving the free gift of eternal life through faith in God's Son, Jesus Christ. Rom 1:21

Your argument is false. In RT, God doesn't prevent anyone from coming to him. The reason they don't come to Him is because they don't want to. It's their own fault.

Try harder.

But thank you for being honest and admitting that God excludes some people from salvation in your view.

 

[All Souls]

In Arminianism, and all forms of non-Calvinism except Universalism, God excludes some people from salvation.

Nonsense, only Calvinists believe God excludes people from salvation.

 

[Legionwrex]

In Arminianism, and all forms of non-Calvinism except Universalism, God excludes some people from salvation.

Its God who designed salvation. It's God who set up the parameters of salvation to be "believe". He could have easily made no parameters and just saved everyone if He wanted to.

Being God, it seems easy to give himself what He wants. Doesn't he want to save everyone? (That's what Arminians claim) He could have easily done so. He could have simply made the parameter for salvation "be human", but instead, he made a parameter that He KNEW (being omniscient) would result in millions of people going to hell.

Why set up a parameter that he KNOWS will result in less than everyone being saved? I mean, if little ole' me can figure this out, surely God knew what He was getting himself into.

The only logical, honest, and consistent conclusion is that in every soteriological view except universalism, God excludes people from salvation.

Anyone who claims otherwise is being dishonest.

The difference is that God isn't intentionally excluding them. They do that to themselves by being able to come to Jesus and be saved, but not being willing. True love can really only exist with true choice and free will, otherwise we might as well be machines, programmed to do what we're told.

God knows this so he gives us the choice, and a lot of people, unfortunately, reject God's love for them. The difference is God doesn't then force those people to accept him against their will (or by changing their will, which is still a form of going against their current will) like he does in Calvinism.

Now if you're going to argue against Arminians, there are much better arguments to use than this one. Because I must admit I am getting sick of Calvinists trying to justify their belief in what I like to call "exclusive salvationism" by trying to say that everyone believes in it. No, everyone except Universalists believe that only some people will be saved, however only Calvinists believe that God never really even gave some people the chance to be saved to begin with.

 

[abacabb3]

The only logical, honest, and consistent conclusion is that in every soteriological view except universalism, God excludes people from salvation.

Ultimately, that doesn't bother most Arminians. THey just don't think it is fair that GOd would exclude anyone without giving them a "fair shot." Push them hard enough, many will say non believers are saved if they have good intentions.

Ultimately, they believe works-based salvation. Calvinism is the only consistent theology that explains how people can really be saved from something other than works.

 

[sdowney717]

Ultimately, that doesn't bother most Arminians. THey just don't think it is fair that GOd would exclude anyone without giving them a "fair shot." Push them hard enough, many will say non believers are saved if they have good intentions.

Ultimately, they believe works-based salvation. Calvinism is the only consistent theology that explains how people can really be saved from something other than works.

I get the same impressions from those of that persuasion.
That God is love and fair and will see them as good enough to be saved because they did not know any better. The Egyptians said the heart would be weighed against a feather, and if lighter they would be saved. Such persons might as well believe the same thing, a heart not burdened with evil obvious intent, they tried to do good. We can call them pagans.

 

[Legionwrex]

Ultimately, that doesn't bother most Arminians. THey just don't think it is fair that GOd would exclude anyone without giving them a "fair shot." Push them hard enough, many will say non believers are saved if they have good intentions.

Ultimately, they believe works-based salvation. Calvinism is the only consistent theology that explains how people can really be saved from something other than works.

So if you believe Arminians believe in works-based Salvation, doesn't that mean that you believe that most if not all Arminians are going to hell? Just curious...

Really, it seems to me that anyone who holds to a form of Lordship Salvation, in one sense or another, believes in a form of works salvation. That doesn't mean I don't think their saved, but it is disturbing.

 

[janxharris]

Your argument is false. In RT, God doesn't prevent anyone from coming to him. The reason they don't come to Him is because they don't want to. It's their own fault.

Why don't you include the complete facts? Per your theology , ALL won't come because of their sins, so the ONLY way out is God picking you out for regeneration. Time and time again, you disingenuously 'offer' salvation to the reprobates. Its as if your saying, 'if they would just stop sinning and seek God, then they would go to heaven'. When are going to stop doing this? Are you following Jesus' lead on this (your understanding of those scripture where an offer is made)? Its like you think it is somehow going to rescue your theology from the obvious mess that it finds itself in.

But thank you for being honest and admitting that God excludes some people from salvation in your view.

Excluded for a reason - that's the difference. It's very simple.

 

[Skala]

Nonsense, only Calvinists believe God excludes people from salvation.

I just proved from my post that this is not true. Making assertions doesn't accomplish anything. Perhaps you should actually try to interact with my argument.

If you aren't a universalist, then you believe God excludes some people from salvation.

If you believe in a form of works salvation (Roman Catholic), that means you believe God excludes those who don't "work" hard enough.

If you beleive in the Protestant "faith alone" doctrine, that means you believe God excludes those who don't have faith.

 

[Skala]

The difference is that God isn't intentionally excluding them. They do that to themselves by being able to come to Jesus and be saved, but not being willing. True love can really only exist with true choice and free will, otherwise we might as well be machines, programmed to do what we're told.

God knows this so he gives us the choice, and a lot of people, unfortunately, reject God's love for them. The difference is God doesn't then force those people to accept him against their will (or by changing their will, which is still a form of going against their current will) like he does in Calvinism.

Now if you're going to argue against Arminians, there are much better arguments to use than this one. Because I must admit I am getting sick of Calvinists trying to justify their belief in what I like to call "exclusive salvationism" by trying to say that everyone believes in it. No, everyone except Universalists believe that only some people will be saved, however only Calvinists believe that God never really even gave some people the chance to be saved to begin with.

I feel like you don't understand Calvinism. In Calvinism, God is not preventing anyone from coming to him. He preaches the same gospel to everyone (through evangelists). He is not saying "You can come to Jesus, but you cant". He is inviting everyone to Jesus.

But because of depravity, nobody by fallen nature is willing to come. That's not God's fault, it's man's fault.

If anyone is willing to come, it's because grace is to be credited.
If someone is not willing to come, God can't be blamed for that, it's their own fault for being a rebellious, fallen human.

God is not excluding anyone from salvation in Calvinism any more than He is in Arminianism/non-Calvinism. In both systems, God saves the same group of people: "those who believe in Jesus". In both systems, every single person that wants to believe in Jesus, can do so, and be saved. There is literally no difference.

PS: If you believed (about the bold part immediately above) any different, that is proof you don't understand Calvinism.

 

[Skala]

Why don't you include the complete facts? Per your theology , ALL won't come because of their sins, so the ONLY way out is God picking you out for regeneration. Time and time again, you disingenuously 'offer' salvation to the reprobates. Its as if your saying, 'if they would just stop sinning and seek God, then they would go to heaven'. When are going to stop doing this? Are you following Jesus' lead on this (your understanding of those scripture where an offer is made)? Its like you think it is somehow going to rescue your theology from the obvious mess that it finds itself in.


Excluded for a reason - that's the difference. It's very simple.

In both Calvinism and Arminianism, unbelievers are excluded for the same reason: they are sinners and unbelievers.

Thus, even in your own view, Janx, God excludes some people from salvation.

In both of our views, only believers are saved.
In both of our views, God designed salvation so that "belief" is the prerequisite.
In both of our views, unbelievers are rejected.

Your view is no different than mine on this point, thus, I wish you would stop pretending that this is only true of Calvinism, in attempt to demonize it or paint it in a bad light.

 

[Legionwrex]

I feel like you don't understand Calvinism. In Calvinism, God is not preventing anyone from coming to him. He preaches the same gospel to everyone (through evangelists). He is not saying "You can come to Jesus, but you cant". He is inviting everyone to Jesus.

But because of depravity, nobody by fallen nature is willing to come. That's not God's fault, it's man's fault.

If anyone is willing to come, it's because grace is to be credited.
If someone is not willing to come, God can't be blamed for that, it's their own fault for being a rebellious, fallen human.

God is not excluding anyone from salvation in Calvinism any more than He is in Arminianism/non-Calvinism. In both systems, God saves the same group of people: "those who believe in Jesus". In both systems, every single person that wants to believe in Jesus, can do so, and be saved. There is literally no difference.

Except for the fact that most Calvinists I meet believe that God Predestined the destinies of people. How can it be a honest invitation to the Gospel if God has already predetermined your destiny and your choice depends on what God decides for you? That's not a genuine offer, that's fatalism. And John Calvin himself seemed to hold this view in his writings.

Now there are some Calvinists who believe that God doesn't predetermine your choices and out of your own free will most people reject his love for them. While that's better than the Calvinists I mentioned above, I still have a bit of a problem in that those that God does save he completely forces salvation on, regardless of their will.

For the record, in case you're wondering, I do believe that Calvinists, even the hardcore ones, are saved, but I despise their doctrine, not the people who believe it.

 

[janxharris]

I feel like you don't understand Calvinism. In Calvinism, God is not preventing anyone from coming to him.

So suddenly, when it suits your argument, all humans have the ability and wherewithal to seek and find God. How expedient.

He preaches the same gospel to everyone (through evangelists). He is not saying "You can come to Jesus, but you cant". He is inviting everyone to Jesus.

Disingenuous offer par excellence.

But because of depravity, nobody by fallen nature is willing to come. That's not God's fault, it's man's fault.

You forget to mention that you think God foreordains everything.

If anyone is willing to come, it's because grace is to be credited.
If someone is not willing to come, God can't be blamed for that, it's their own fault for being a rebellious, fallen human.

Our holy God is just an arbitrary gift giver then? I don't think so.

God is not excluding anyone from salvation in Calvinism any more than He is in Arminianism/non-Calvinism. In both systems, God saves the same group of people: "those who believe in Jesus". In both systems, every single person that wants to believe in Jesus, can do so, and be saved. There is literally no difference.

You actually believe this. The difference is huge.

 

[Hammster]

The difference is that God isn't intentionally excluding them.

Is He unintentionally excluding them?

 

[janxharris]

In both Calvinism and Arminianism, unbelievers are excluded for the same reason: they are sinners and unbelievers.

Thus, even in your own view, Janx, God excludes some people from salvation.

In both of our views, only believers are saved.
In both of our views, God designed salvation so that "belief" is the prerequisite.
In both of our views, unbelievers are rejected.

Your view is no different than mine on this point, thus, I wish you would stop pretending that this is only true of Calvinism, in attempt to demonize it or paint it in a bad light.

You avoided my post.

The blue whale in the room is that God excludes based upon a very good reason. What's your reason? None has been forth coming...for 500 years........

 

[Legionwrex]

Is He unintentionally excluding them?

I guess I better way of wording it would be that God isn't choosing for them, he is letting them choose. That's the heart of the issue in my opinion. However there was much more to my comment than that one line.