important question...

Jessica Lauren · Apr 16, 2006

Okay, lately I have been really struggling with my faith. It has basically been faith vs. Science. I have been an agnostic basically all of my life, with some spouts of faith. But lately I have been REALLY determined with all of this. So, I've been reading around, and researching a lot on my own time. I think that's good considering a lot of people folloow blindly. Now, sometimes I come across things and I think 'wow, why would I be a christian? This other info makes so much more sense.' And other times its the opposite.

So I'm coming to you for help. I need some really strong christians to help me with this. Simply saying pray and read the Bible can't and won't be the only thing to help, and I don't really want to go to any church.

Today, I found this little essay I'd call it. It made a lot of sense to me. I read it and just went wow. However, I want both sides of it. I'm going to post the link and I was hoping some strong Christians could pull it apart piece by piece and offer me another view of this all. Please. I hope this is the right forum. If you need to move it, mods, that's okay. I'm not trying to start anything. I'm just an 18 year old girl who wants some answers.

http://www.ministerturnsatheist.org/questionsforgod.html

Thank you too all those that help.

-jessica

AllTalkNoAction · Apr 16, 2006

JH:So why did you bother creating anything in the first place?
me: The nature of love is to be creative and share.
We are made in God's image and we find we don't want to remain alone and inactive. We like to create a family, where does that desire come from ?

JH: but you shouldn't really want conversation because, as God, you know all things,
me: I can read a textbook and learn how to do something that gives pleasure etc, but that's NOT the same as doing it.

JH:Why do you need praise? Why worship?
me: God wants us to appreaciate what is offered to us by a loving God. If you don't want to praise, you are not appreciating.

JH: Why do you need to hear constant flatteries from lesser beings who are beneath you?
me: God wants to raise us to his level, to be his sons & daughters, co-heairs of all things, he doesn't want "flatteries". . . .
this "Joe Holman" is only showing his ignorance.

. . KCJ, I could go on but if *you* really wabt to know the truth about God above all else, claim the promise that I received 20 yrs ago - God indwelling !

" they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance . . .For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2v4, 39)

MinDach · Apr 17, 2006

(So I'm coming to you for help. I need some really strong christians to help me with this. Simply saying pray and read the Bible can't and won't be the only thing to help, and I don't really want to go to any church.)

Church will not help you if you have not found Christ Yet, many people spend there whole lives in a church building and have never found Christ. You do not find him by works, you will not find him by the law, this is the only way you will find him, say the sinner pray with all your heart and mean every word you say, he knows your heart already. The Spirit of God will bring the truth to your heart, then you will know.

ebia · Apr 17, 2006

KCJls said:
Okay, lately I have been really struggling with my faith. It has basically been faith vs. Science.

Faith and science are not in conflict.

Science has nothing to say about faith, and faith has next to nothing to say about science. They deal with completely different things. It's a bit like saying poetry is in conflict with civil engineering.

Im_A · Apr 17, 2006

KCJls said:
Okay, lately I have been really struggling with my faith. It has basically been faith vs. Science. I have been an agnostic basically all of my life, with some spouts of faith. But lately I have been REALLY determined with all of this. So, I've been reading around, and researching a lot on my own time. I think that's good considering a lot of people folloow blindly. Now, sometimes I come across things and I think 'wow, why would I be a christian? This other info makes so much more sense.' And other times its the opposite.

So I'm coming to you for help. I need some really strong christians to help me with this. Simply saying pray and read the Bible can't and won't be the only thing to help, and I don't really want to go to any church.

Today, I found this little essay I'd call it. It made a lot of sense to me. I read it and just went wow. However, I want both sides of it. I'm going to post the link and I was hoping some strong Christians could pull it apart piece by piece and offer me another view of this all. Please. I hope this is the right forum. If you need to move it, mods, that's okay. I'm not trying to start anything. I'm just an 18 year old girl who wants some answers.

http://www.ministerturnsatheist.org/questionsforgod.html

Thank you too all those that help.

-jessica

the best i can say after the 12 years of being a Christian is, Jesus said to not worry about tomorrow, for today has its own trouble.

so the answers to big questions are rather meaningless when it comes to just having faith, and focusing on the here and now, and put your faith in God and not in your own ability of understanding. we have simple commandments that Christ gave us. those are the best starting point, and i'm guessing the best mid-ground and conclusion.

God Bless you! <><

HumbleUnderdog · Apr 17, 2006

The struggle with faith versus science. I give you these websites, I hope I'm allowed to post links in here.

http://www.doesgodexist.org/
http://godandscience.org/

Adstar · Apr 17, 2006

KCJls said:
Okay, lately I have been really struggling with my faith. It has basically been faith vs. Science. I have been an agnostic basically all of my life, with some spouts of faith. But lately I have been REALLY determined with all of this. So, I've been reading around, and researching a lot on my own time. I think that's good considering a lot of people folloow blindly. Now, sometimes I come across things and I think 'wow, why would I be a christian? This other info makes so much more sense.' And other times its the opposite.

So I'm coming to you for help. I need some really strong christians to help me with this. Simply saying pray and read the Bible can't and won't be the only thing to help, and I don't really want to go to any church.

Today, I found this little essay I'd call it. It made a lot of sense to me. I read it and just went wow. However, I want both sides of it. I'm going to post the link and I was hoping some strong Christians could pull it apart piece by piece and offer me another view of this all. Please. I hope this is the right forum. If you need to move it, mods, that's okay. I'm not trying to start anything. I'm just an 18 year old girl who wants some answers.

http://www.ministerturnsatheist.org/questionsforgod.html

Thank you too all those that help.

-jessica

Hello Jessica

I read for about 3 minutes before i stopped. I love to answer question but i cannot handle all the sarcastic, derogatory and insulting attitude that has been added to the questions in that document.

Please If you have some questions just ask them yourself. I am sure you can ask them in a far more straightforward way. Without all the unnecessary provocation the author of that document added.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

CrazyforYeshua · Apr 17, 2006

I agree, he is sarcastic, and very arrogant.
There are a couple things he needs to know. The first is that God DOES speak, we just have to learn to listen. The other is praise and worship-it's not for God, it's for US. It's a time for God to reveal Himself, and for us to take our mind off of our petty problems, and soak in His presence and allow Him to bring us to a place nothing else can. If he truly knew God at some point in his life, then he missed it.

Todd600RR · Apr 17, 2006

Jessica, this guy was never a Christian to begin with. The Bible tells us that if a person denies Christ, he never truly knew Christ to begin with. 1 John 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” A person who rejects Christ and turns their back on faith is showing they never belonged to Christ. Those who belong to Christ remain with Christ. Those who renounce their faith never had it to begin with.

There are just as many things out their written by atheist turned christian. If you are truly seeking the truth, go the the right places to find it. Seek Christian sites, you may not think they are being objective, but there is nothing objective about the truth.

I am praying for you.

LilLamb219 · Apr 17, 2006

So I'm coming to you for help. I need some really strong christians to help me with this. Simply saying pray and read the Bible can't and won't be the only thing to help, and I don't really want to go to any church.

You say you struggle with your faith but turn your back on the faith building things such as God's Word found in scripture and within your church building. Why? Do you expect to strengthen your faith using other means than what God intended?

dvd_holc · Apr 17, 2006

Why is science so applying?

Jessica Lauren · Apr 17, 2006

Thanks for the links and replies guys. I'm checking out the links right now, so I'm sure I'll have my own questions soon.

You say you struggle with your faith but turn your back on the faith building things such as God's Word found in scripture and within your church building. Why? Do you expect to strengthen your faith using other means than what God intended?

In a sense, yes. Right now, it just isn't enough for me. I read the Bible and find so many condradictions, and things that just don't make sense to me. Even some things that just seem too harsh to be from God/Jesus. I don't think miracles and such are impossible. For me, its more of the not making sense of it all. Of course, I could be wrong, and that is why I'm searching for other answers and asking all of you. I'm sure there is stuff I'm not seeing in reguards to all of this, and many of you can pinpoint it.

LilLamb219 · Apr 17, 2006

In a sense, yes. Right now, it just isn't enough for me. I read the Bible and find so many condradictions, and things that just don't make sense to me. Even some things that just seem too harsh to be from God/Jesus. I don't think miracles and such are impossible. For me, its more of the not making sense of it all. Of course, I could be wrong, and that is why I'm searching for other answers and asking all of you. I'm sure there is stuff I'm not seeing in reguards to all of this, and many of you can pinpoint it.

Have you belonged to a church in the past? Is there a pastor you can trust to talk with about these concerns? Our pastors are our sub-shepherds to help teach us God's Word.

But, if you don't have a pastor with whom you can talk to, we'll gladly help you here, but one question at a time would make things easier for the thread

Im_A · Apr 17, 2006

KCJls said:
Thanks for the links and replies guys. I'm checking out the links right now, so I'm sure I'll have my own questions soon.

In a sense, yes. Right now, it just isn't enough for me. I read the Bible and find so many condradictions, and things that just don't make sense to me. Even some things that just seem too harsh to be from God/Jesus. I don't think miracles and such are impossible. For me, its more of the not making sense of it all. Of course, I could be wrong, and that is why I'm searching for other answers and asking all of you. I'm sure there is stuff I'm not seeing in reguards to all of this, and many of you can pinpoint it.

do the commandments of Christ get put into these contradictions? do the contradictions nullfiy the great commandments of Christ? and even if your questions are left unanswered, are you still able to fulfill the great commandments of Christ? i would agree so.

i find it odd at times that people give up/or say that it isn't enough for Christiantity because of contradictions in the scriptures, or because of faith vs. science. why are contradictions, and getting rid of those most important than loving God with all your heart and soul, loving your neighbor as you would love yourself, love as Christ did to the best of your ability, trying to fulfill the Good Samaritan Parableand living at peace without the questions answered?

i'm not trying to judge you, or be mean. but i think the priorities are a bit skewed. questions will never go away. for a season, you'll have find some method to satisfy some desire to know all the answers. then something either in life, or some other view will make you re-think, then your back at the starting point, only to reach another conclusion of wasted celebration for cross the starting line again, again and again and you'll change. maybe the change is just growth, progression, or mayber it is deconverting then converting back and forth. such an unpredictable blessing/condemnation as far as i'm concerned...meaning the search to answer all the questions we as humanity think up.

but the one thing that is a constant blessing, time and time again is the simple commandments of Christ. seeds grow and take time to grow. faith is a constant of Christianity...even when doubt is the most certainity, and patience is always a virtue.

Jessica Lauren · Apr 17, 2006

Great reply. Thank you.

I was talking to my mom today about this all, and I came up with a few questions. None of which she could answer. So maybe some of you can help. A few happened to be presented in that essay but I'm not quite so sarcastic, lol.

1) If Satan was in heaven once how did he just fall? If everything is supposed to be pure and happy in heaven then how did he feel "evil" or want to overpower God? Wouldn't he have been 100% happy in heaven? That confuses me.

2) Do we really have free-will? I mean if God knows everything we're going to do before we do it, then he knows if we will end up in hell and heaven. So what's the point?

3) So God creates OJ Simpson(PURE example). He knows his future...right? So he knows OJ is going to kill someone. Right? So does OJ exactly have a choice? I mean yeah, you have a choice to kill or not, but God knows this before you do it. So he knows if you'll end up in hell or heaven..so again what's the point?

4) If God knows what we want & need why do we have to pray? He'd know anyway right?

I'm sorry I'm just really confused and I would love just some help. Thank you.

Adstar · Apr 17, 2006

Hi Jessica

KCJls said:
Great reply. Thank you.

KCJls said:
I was talking to my mom today about this all, and I came up with a few questions. None of which she could answer. So maybe some of you can help. A few happened to be presented in that essay but I'm not quite so sarcastic, lol.

1) If Satan was in heaven once how did he just fall? If everything is supposed to be pure and happy in heaven then how did he feel "evil" or want to overpower God? Wouldn't he have been 100% happy in heaven? That confuses me.

Some are not happy with being happy some want control they want power. Thats what satan wanted, he wanted to be God. But satan is a created being just like we are created beings. We cannot be God because we do not have the ability. Only God can be God. satan has been trying to prove God a failure by attempting to sabotage His creation satan is trying to undermine Gods claim to be the One and Only God.

2) Do we really have free-will? I mean if God knows everything we're going to do before we do it, then he knows if we will end up in hell and heaven. So what's the point?

God has foreknowledge of all History. Universe time is also part of His creation. God is not controlled by His creation, He is not limited by The time frame we are bound to in this creation. God see's all out time at one time. This does not mean that God forces us to do things. We are not zombies. But it does allow God to inject himself into and interact with history at times of His choosing. Jesus is one such intervention. A checkmate to satans schemes.

3) So God creates OJ Simpson(PURE example). He knows his future...right? So he knows OJ is going to kill someone. Right? So does OJ exactly have a choice? I mean yeah, you have a choice to kill or not, but God knows this before you do it. So he knows if you'll end up in hell or heaven..so again what's the point?

Once again Jessica just because God knows that someone will kill another person does not mean God has forced that person to kill. Everyone has their own free will including OJ. Yes God knows if we will end up in the lake of fire or with Him in eternity, But we do not know do we? We still have hope and we still have our free will.

4) If God knows what we want & need why do we have to pray? He'd know anyway right?

Prayer is not just about asking for things. The benefit of prayer is that it puts us into the right frame of mind when it comes to our relationship with God. When we ask for things it is reminding us that everything we have (including our very existence) we have obtained from God. When we pray we are acknowledging our awesome creator that knows all and see's all. Also when we pray we are reminded that we are never alone. God is always with us.

I'm sorry I'm just really confused and I would love just some help. Thank you.

No need to be sorry Jessica It is a great pleasure to be of any help to you.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Jessica Lauren · Apr 17, 2006

Some are not happy with being happy some want control they want power. That’s what satan wanted, he wanted to be God. But satan is a created being just like we are created beings. We cannot be God because we do not have the ability. Only God can be God. satan has been trying to prove God a failure by attempting to sabotage His creation satan is trying to undermine Gods claim to be the One and Only God.

But if heaven is perfect why would Satan even want that power??

God has foreknowledge of all History. Universe time is also part of His creation. God is not controlled by His creation, He is not limited by The time frame we are bound to in this creation. God see's all out time at one time. This does not mean that God forces us to do things. We are not zombies. But it does allow God to inject himself into and interact with history at times of His choosing. Jesus is one such intervention. A checkmate to satans schemes.

So he chooses to intervine whenever he wants but not ALL the time?

Once again Jessica just because God knows that someone will kill another person does not mean God has forced that person to kill. Everyone has their own free will including OJ. Yes God knows if we will end up in the lake of fire or with Him in eternity, But we do not know do we? We still have hope and we still have our free will.

So he creates OJ and he KNOWS oj will kill in the future. How is that free will..oj really doesnt have a choice because its already in the plan in a certain way. Can we change that plan by our choices? But if we do that then was it really God's plan for us?

Prayer is not just about asking for things. The benefit of prayer is that it puts us into the right frame of mind when it comes to our relationship with God. When we ask for things it is reminding us that everything we have (including our very existence) we have obtained from God. When we pray we are acknowledging our awesome creator that knows all and see's all. Also when we pray we are reminded that we are never alone. God is always with us.

Thank you.

Adstar · Apr 18, 2006

G'Day Jessica

KCJls said:
But if heaven is perfect why would Satan even want that power??

Pride. satan does not want anyone to be above him. Many people reject God because they cannot stomach the thought that there is Someone out there that has ultimate power over their eternal destiny, Many people want to be their own God. To be top of the food chain. But like all civilizations created by men they fall. History is full of very rich men who wanted to also have political power. They had everything they wanted except for the thing they really wanted Power and control, raised social status and the praise of other men. Yes satan lived in a perfect existence but satan wanted more.

So he chooses to intervine whenever he wants but not ALL the time?

God is constantly intervening in the lives of those that Love His will. I used to suffer from depression but through God i have been given peace of mind. There are many interventions happening every day like that. God is working on a lot of people.

Of course there are large scale interventions, Like when God introduced Himself to Abraham. And when He introduced Himself to Moses. And when Jesus came into the World. God works with His creation on all levels. Even here today God is intervening in your life. This does not mean that you are going to be forced to believe in the Will of God your going to make that choice yourself. Yes God knows what choice you will make but still it's your choice.

So he creates OJ and he KNOWS oj will kill in the future. How is that free will..oj really doesnt have a choice because its already in the plan in a certain way. Can we change that plan by our choices? But if we do that then was it really God's plan for us?

I wrote a document a few years ago trying to explain this, while it was directed at a Christian audience i feel it could help you. I will post it below i hope it can help you.

Fate Free will and Predestination

Let us think about Prophesy. If the future can be accurately foretold (which Christians must believe if they agree with whats in the bible) than we must believe in a type of fate. Now free will supporters will say that yes the future has been foretold in the bible, in the book of revelations, but they are mayor world events, we still have free will on an individual level. So its up to us what our future is

Lets look at the book of Revelation. John was on the island of Patmos when God revealed the future to him, he saw the final judgment in process, now did he see a representation of what was to happen or was he actually transported through time to the final judgment and actually saw the final judgment in progress? You may be thinking what does it matter? Well if he was actually there at the final judgment and saw the great multitude standing before God then he would be looking at real people some of whom would not have been born until 100s or maybe 1000s of years after his lifetime. So he was looking at people who had not been born yet, (in his time) that had been born lived their lives believed or not believed, died and raised, which were being judged. So even before they were born it was known what choices they were going to make and therefore their ultimate fate.

It may seem to you that I am supporting the predestination view; well in a way I am and in another way I am not. Let me explain. If God knows the future to the detail that I have suggested above, than he knows what choices people will make during their lives even before they are born. So we still have free will its just that God already knows what choices we are going to make.

So to use an analogy The history of existence is like a real life documentary and God has got the tape and can F-Forward it and knows the outcome beforehand. The people who are in the documentary are free to say and do what they want and they say and do what they want. From that tape he has already written down in his book (the book of life) who he has selected for his next production and who gets the chop.

I hope I have explained my thoughts clearly enough. I can tell you its not easy explaining something like this using words.

The end.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

matthewgoh · Apr 18, 2006

KCJls said:
Today, I found this little essay I'd call it. It made a lot of sense to me. I read it and just went wow. However, I want both sides of it. I'm going to post the link and I was hoping some strong Christians could pull it apart piece by piece and offer me another view of this all.
http://www.ministerturnsatheist.org/questionsforgod.html

Hello Jessica,

Frist of all, I would advise you to avoid the confusions and deceptions put forward by the Atheists (like the website above). Some of them are ex-Christians who have abandoned the Christian faith, and they know very well our uncertainties, which we put our trust in God. Their aim is to keep us away from God like they do. Do not be deceived.

Keep praying to God, and he will reveal himself to you a little at a time.

Please feel free to ask questions here. Your CF friends here will gladly help. God bless.

Robinsegg · Apr 18, 2006

KCJls said:
1) If Satan was in heaven once how did he just fall? If everything is supposed to be pure and happy in heaven then how did he feel "evil" or want to overpower God? Wouldn't he have been 100% happy in heaven? That confuses me.

Satan (Lucifer) was in control of or over 1/3 of the angels. He decided he liked being in control and wanted more. It's like having 1 piece of chocolate cake. It may be the most wonderful chocolate cake ever made, and we got a piece of it. But now we want more. It's not enough to have 1 piece, we want to have it all.

KCJls said:
2) Do we really have free-will? I mean if God knows everything we're going to do before we do it, then he knows if we will end up in hell and heaven. So what's the point?

Are you a parent? Think of it this way: I know my 5yo is going to make a mistake. Does this mean she has no choice in the matter? No. She can still choose differently and surprise me. God can't be surprised, but we still have the ability to choose.

KCJls said:
3) So God creates OJ Simpson(PURE example). He knows his future...right? So he knows OJ is going to kill someone. Right? So does OJ exactly have a choice? I mean yeah, you have a choice to kill or not, but God knows this before you do it. So he knows if you'll end up in hell or heaven..so again what's the point?

Yes, God knows. But in the example I gave above, I would warn my daughter not to make the mistake she's going to make. I'd let her know what the consequences of that mistake are. Could I physically restrain her to keep her from that mistake and its' consequences? Sure. Would she learn anything, be an example to others or be less likely to make the mistake in the future? No.

KCJls said:
4) If God knows what we want & need why do we have to pray? He'd know anyway right?

Sure God knows what we want and need. But, like a parent, He wants us to ask Him for it. He doesn't want to be a vending machine, He wants to have a relationship with us where we can ask Him for what we want and need. There are times He provides us with needs we don't see and can't ask for. Just like I provide food and clothing for my children. They don't always know what they'll need, but it's usually there, just waiting for them to ask for it!

KCJls said:
I'm sorry I'm just really confused and I would love just some help. Thank you.

No need! Please feel free to ask me or anyone else the questions you have. If we don't have the answers, maybe we can find someone who does!

As for the Faith/Science question: I'll refer you to Lee Strobel, who's written some books trying to disprove Creation, Calvary, and Faith. I'll also recommend (if you're interested in archaeology, Neandertal, and the Bible) a book called Buried Alive: the Startling Truth about Neanderthal Man by Jack Cuzzo. It's a fascinating read!

God bless,
Rachel

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