Important interpretation? : does having been a monkey, help all future "evolutions" in a monkey way?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

and why do we not see monkey in transition to being humans today?

There are various monkeys and apes that between them have traits that early humans had - e.g. complex social hierarchies, tool use, savannah-dwelling, group hunting, the rudiments of language, morals, self-awareness, etc.; but it's only possible to say which way a species' evolution has transitioned (given tens or hundreds of thousands of years of hindsight) because significant changes are infrequent and depend on genetic mutations and the pressures of the environment, which are unpredictable.

It's conceivable that, if humans were to go extinct and monkeys and/or apes survive, one or more species might take a similar evolutionary path to human-level intelligence, but they wouldn't be human, any more than the marsupial equivalents of mice, rats, cats, dogs, wolves, etc., are true mice, rats, dogs, cats, or wolves.

 

[disciple Clint]

There are various monkeys and apes that between them have traits that early humans had - e.g. complex social hierarchies, tool use, savannah-dwelling, group hunting, the rudiments of language, morals, self-awareness, etc.; but it's only possible to say which way a species' evolution has transitioned (given tens or hundreds of thousands of years of hindsight) because significant changes are infrequent and depend on genetic mutations and the pressures of the environment, which are unpredictable.

It's conceivable that, if humans were to go extinct and monkeys and/or apes survive, one or more species might take a similar evolutionary path to human-level intelligence, but they wouldn't be human, any more than the marsupial equivalents of mice, rats, cats, dogs, wolves, etc., are true mice, rats, dogs, cats, or wolves.

I saw the movie planet of the apes years ago so I am not surprised by anything that some people think up based on a movie

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I saw the movie planet of the apes years ago so I am not surprised by anything that some people think up based on a movie

... really? You think the theory of evolution is based on the Planet of the Apes movie?

 

[Shemjaza]

I saw the movie planet of the apes years ago so I am not surprised by anything that some people think up based on a movie

Actually it turns out that both evolution and the Bible were based on the same guy:

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I saw the movie planet of the apes years ago so I am not surprised by anything that some people think up based on a movie

IIRC the original movie (1968) was based on the idea of asking what it would be like if the evolution of human and chimp intelligence was a mirror of what happened on Earth so that the chimps were human-smart and the humans were chimp-smart. This conveniently ignores the fact that the evolution of body and brain are driven by the same selective pressures, so this imaginative conceit is, like the science in most science fiction movies, not to be taken seriously.

It's impossible to say what some conceivable future intelligent species evolved from monkeys or apes might look and behave like, barring that they'd probably have the same general anatomy. As I said, such a creature is conceivable, but that doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

 

[Gottservant]

The point is the same: if Evolution creates adaptation, and one adaptation is no different from another, then both will be kept, by whatever Evolution creates.

The monkey adaptations are no different from the human adaptations, so both will be maintained by monkeys or humans.

The only way out of this, is to create a pressure that establishes the negative of a given Evolution so that you don't begin adaptations that are irrelevant to your current Evolution, as in there should be pressure to stop or start Evolution, not merely repeat it.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The point is the same: if Evolution creates adaptation, and one adaptation is no different from another, then both will be kept, by whatever Evolution creates.

The monkey adaptations are no different from the human adaptations, so both will be maintained by monkeys or humans.

The only way out of this, is to create a pressure that establishes the negative of a given Evolution so that you don't begin adaptations that are irrelevant to your current Evolution, as in there should be pressure to stop or start Evolution, not merely repeat it.

Adaptations are related to selection pressures. Species with different selection pressures from different lifestyles and environments will have different adaptations.

If humans live out on the plain instead of in the trees and stand upright, they are under pressure to have lighter body hair (fur) for thermal regulation. So humans become less hairy, but monkeys do not.

If humans adapt to become less hairy their skin is exposed and so they are under pressure for their skin to get darker to protect them. Monkeys are not under this pressure.

If humans learn how to control fire and cook food, they don't need to commit as much resources into digestion, so they are under pressure to reduce the size of their intestines. Monkeys were not.

Lots of different selection pressures and therefore different adaptations between "monkeys" and "humans".

 

[Gottservant]

Adaptations are related to selection pressures. Species with different selection pressures from different lifestyles and environments will have different adaptations.

If humans live out on the plain instead of in the trees and stand upright, they are under pressure to have lighter body hair (fur) for thermal regulation. So humans become less hairy, but monkeys do not.

[...]

Lots of different selection pressures and therefore different adaptations between "monkeys" and "humans".

Yes, but you are not listening to what I say: "if humans differ from monkeys, the pressure to be different must be responded to, with a change of pressure or response to it".

Specific uprightness must be evolved, how then is it "rewarded"? Monkeys do not lose fur, but how is the reward behind fur being maintained "reaffirmed"?

If I go and stand amongst the trees, my fur does not come back (because of 'past affinity with trees' "reaffirmed"). If a monkey goes and stands on the plain, he doesn't know which fur to keep and which fur to let go (because of 'plain' "reward").

This whole question of reward or reaffirmation is what separates one species from another; it is the inner working of differences Evolution can't make meaningful, without treating them as 'real'.

All to quickly you affirm continuity and disperse reward, when this cannot work without being discerned! Which brings me to another question: "is everything 'evolved' equally discerning of that Evolution?"

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes, but you are not listening to what I say: "if humans differ from monkeys, the pressure to be different must be responded to, with a change of pressure or response to it".

Something something goose, something something gander.

Specific uprightness must be evolved, how then is it "rewarded"? Monkeys do not lose fur, but how is the reward behind fur being maintained "reaffirmed"?

If I go and stand amongst the trees, my fur does not come back (because of 'past affinity with trees' "reaffirmed"). If a monkey goes and stands on the plain, he doesn't know which fur to keep and which fur to let go (because of 'plain' "reward").

EVOLUTION DOESN'T HAPPEN TO INDIVIDUALS.

This whole question of reward or reaffirmation is what separates one species from another; it is the inner working of differences Evolution can't make meaningful, without treating them as 'real'.

All to quickly you affirm continuity and disperse reward, when this cannot work without being discerned! Which brings me to another question: "is everything 'evolved' equally discerning of that Evolution?"

EVOLUTION IS NOT A REWARD.

 

[Gottservant]

Something something goose, something something gander.

EVOLUTION DOESN'T HAPPEN TO INDIVIDUALS.

EVOLUTION IS NOT A REWARD.

Evolution creates agents, agents deserve choice.

The whole thing for me is, if I go from monkey to man, I need to reinforce man; if I go from man to monkey, but have been reinforced as a man, I am likely to go back to being monkey from the perspective of man, not monkey (not having been reinforced as monkey).

Can you see the efficacy of that? That I ought to prefer a difference, before my response to change is lost?

 

[Shemjaza]

Evolution creates agents, agents deserve choice.

The whole thing for me is, if I go from monkey to man, I need to reinforce man; if I go from man to monkey, but have been reinforced as a man, I am likely to go back to being monkey from the perspective of man, not monkey (not having been reinforced as monkey).

Can you see the efficacy of that? That I ought to prefer a difference, before my response to change is lost?

That is entirely false.

Individuals do not evolve and evolution is not a choice.

 

[Gottservant]

That is entirely false.

Individuals do not evolve and evolution is not a choice.

What's false? That you have a choice, or that you know what to do with it?

 

[Gottservant]

Besides Shemjaza, who here understands this:?

Say I am a zebra and I have evolved into a low-lying grass zebra and one day I encounter long grass. Say I say to myself "the long grass is easier to hide in, I will leave my low-lying grass area" but I have a friend (zebra) that says "no, I evolved into low-lying grass, I don't have faith in long grass" Is that not a choice, that the one who is entering long grass makes? And does the zebra that enters that long grass, not have a choice, once it is proven that long grass is easier to hide in, as to whether he trusts his instinct, about the safety of long grass? Say that zebra has a child, is the child not going to have the instinct "long grass is safer"? Does that not make his choice an Evolution, of zebra-kind?

That's what I'm saying my instinct is: I'm saying my Father's instinct is that Evolution is more possible in Heaven than it is on Earth, therefore those able to dwell in and read from Evolution in Heaven will survive more, longer and truer. Your father, the Devil, says "there is nowhere to evolve in Hell, therefore I will take it from those who dwell on or under Earth and pretend it is mine". So you take on something that you don't have to be responsible for, as though those in Heaven would give you better Evolution, if they had it - that is not wisdom according to Christ: Christ said "faithful virgins get ready for the wedding, they don't share oil for their lamps with just anyone" (paraphrase, gospels from memory).

The time will come, when you say "help us with our evolution" and I will say as the Lord said "depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you, where you are from".

 

[Shemjaza]

What's false? That you have a choice, or that you know what to do with it?

You do not have a choice to evolve... because evolution doesn't happen to an individual and isn't a choice anyway.

 

[Gottservant]

You do not have a choice to evolve... because evolution doesn't happen to an individual and isn't a choice anyway.

So you're saying you wouldn't know what to do with the choice, even if you had it? You haven't noticed that some instincts make you strong and others weak? It doesn't bother you to take something strong and pretend that it makes you weak or weak and pretend that it makes you strong?

 

[Shemjaza]

So you're saying you wouldn't know what to do with the choice, even if you had it? You haven't noticed that some instincts make you strong and others weak? It doesn't bother you to take something strong and pretend that it makes you weak or weak and pretend that it makes you strong?

I didn't say any of that, because none of that makes evolution either a choice or apply to an individual.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

The point is the same: if Evolution creates adaptation, and one adaptation is no different from another, then both will be kept, by whatever Evolution creates.

The monkey adaptations are no different from the human adaptations, so both will be maintained by monkeys or humans.

The only way out of this, is to create a pressure that establishes the negative of a given Evolution so that you don't begin adaptations that are irrelevant to your current Evolution, as in there should be pressure to stop or start Evolution, not merely repeat it.

The only way out of this is for you to actually make the attempt to learn about evolution.

 

[Frank Robert]

Yes, but you are not listening to what I say: "if humans differ from monkeys, the pressure to be different must be responded to, with a change of pressure or response to it".

Good example of misunderstanding or perhaps a willful misrepresentation of pressures that shape evolution. There is no evolutionary pressure to be different.

Evolutionary Pressure.
Any cause that reduces or increases reproductive success in a portion of a population potentially exerts evolutionary pressure, selective pressure or selection pressure, driving natural selection.
​

 

[Hans Blaster]

Evolution creates agents, agents deserve choice.

The whole thing for me is, if I go from monkey to man, I need to reinforce man; if I go from man to monkey, but have been reinforced as a man, I am likely to go back to being monkey from the perspective of man, not monkey (not having been reinforced as monkey).

YOU do not evolve in the biological sense (the topic of this sub-forum). No individual evolves. You were never a "monkey" and science doesn't make that claim, but your ancestors, long ago, were. That is a claim science makes.

Can you see the efficacy of that? That I ought to prefer a difference, before my response to change is lost?

That's not how this works. That's not how *any* of this works.

 

[Gottservant]

YOU do not evolve in the biological sense (the topic of this sub-forum). No individual evolves. You were never a "monkey" and science doesn't make that claim, but your ancestors, long ago, were. That is a claim science makes.



That's not how this works. That's not how *any* of this works.

But I remember my ancestors and what you say is not how I remember them.

You aren't going to reinforce the difference, so when the time comes to change for the last time, you will pack up and run - fine if your children can cope without you, but hardly an enjoyable legacy.

There are words that endure and words that pass away. Jesus gives you that choice. What does Evolution say about that?