Importance of Geocentrism

busterdog said:

Ecc 1:5 The sun also rises, and the sun goes down, And hastens to the place where it arose.

Obviously that language hardly supports the notion of geocentrism. "Rise" apparently speaks only of the appearance of the sun on the horizon. The deeper you dig, if you dig, will not get you to the sun moving relative to the earth.

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So what is the sun doing hastening to the place where it arose if it isn't moving around the earth? It is not 'rise' that is the issue, it is the sun moving with haste.

Assyrian said:

So what is the sun doing hastening to the place where it arose if it isn't moving around the earth? It is not 'rise' that is the issue, it is the sun moving with haste.

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You can put your socks on in haste, you neednt be travelling in a straight line or an ellipse.



Literally speaking the sun hastily emerges from the womb each morning.

Ya'll dont give up easily.

What is the subject of this illustration?

Ecc 1:6 [One] generation passes away, and [another] generation comes

yeshuasavedme said:

And God set His tabernacle in the sun, as He said, which sun is the "light" made of cut rock crystal which gathers in the light God made on day one, and His sun commands the morning.
So you have visited the stars and know of what they are made, do you? -I doubt it.
One of them is called "wormwood", and will fall to the earth as a great burning mountain, in the tribulation, and will pollute a third of all that is in the seas and many men will die.


On the other hand: Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament [the sun]; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

But those who do not serve Him as He ordained will have the glory reserved for them in the heavens cast down.


In God's Word, stars are not balls of gas, but YHWH'S hosts of heaven; with names, duties, and meanings; who worship, obey and serve, the Creator of all.

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Ah, but stars are balls of gas, even the one that gives light to earth, and the one the earth revolves around. And as far as stars go, it's rather plain, with numerous stars being more luminous - like Sirius. Anyone who's taken astronomy at the high school level can tell you that. There's something called stellar spectroscopy that can pinpoint exactly what elements are present. Stars are not made of rock crystal, and certainly not our sun. Although, more massive stars can burn through their fuel to form heavier and heavier elements. Some can even fuse iron. You do realize that the most common elements throughout the universe are hydrogen (a gas), helium (a gas), oxygen (a gas), and carbon?

busterdog said:

You can put your socks on in haste, you neednt be travelling in a straight line or an ellipse.

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The sun isn't putting on socks. Your "wisdom" is foolishness.
The sun is hasting along it's course/pathway/higyway/ thouroughfare. It goes forth from its chamber and runs it's highway, returning to come out again.

busterdog said:

Ecc 1:6 [One] generation passes away, and [another] generation comes

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The whole passage is about cycles, vanity, and wisdom.
Generations rise in their day and go down in their night, so to speak. What is the profit a man has for all his labor in his days?


Ecc 1:3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? -while he dwells on earth in his flesh
[One] generation passeth away, and [another] generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea [is] not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
All things [are] full of labour; man cannot utter [it]: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun. Is there [any] thing whereof it may be said, See, this [is] new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. [There is] no remembrance of former [things]; neither shall there be [any] remembrance of [things] that are to come with [those] that shall come after.

I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all [things] that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all [is] vanity and vexation of spirit.
[That which is] crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered. I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all [they] that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom [is] much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Jadis40 said:

Ah, but stars are balls of gas, even the one that gives light to earth, and the one the earth revolves around. And as far as stars go, it's rather plain, with numerous stars being more luminous - like Sirius. Anyone who's taken astronomy at the high school level can tell you that. There's something called stellar spectroscopy that can pinpoint exactly what elements are present.

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How surprised they'll be when one third of the stars of heaven fall to earth in the tribulation!

What man uses to measure from within his own fishbowl will not work outside it.

Biblically -and from the Scriptures Enoch wrote by inspiration: the stars are hosts of heaven under God's command to do His will, as He ordained. Stars are called angels/messengers, just as all created forces are His angels/spirits/messengers -like lightning and winds- who serve Him; answer to Him; and delight to do His will. -Enoch saw and explained these things before a thousand years had passed since this creation's beginning.

The sun is not a "ball of gas", but is of a created substance which gathers in the light God called into being on day one and refracts it out, ruling the day, while it runs its course/pathway from one end of the heaven to the other.
His light is powerful. His sun is powerful. He made them so.
Flames of "fire" do suround His sun, but they do not compose the elements of the body of His created sun. His sun is the same size as His moon [1 Enoch]; so it is powerful ,to gather in the light of morning/day and to refract it out to all heaven.
God set His created tabernacle in His created sun [He says] and from there He commands the morning; and the inhabitants of earth are as grasshoppers in His sight. From His house there, His archangels go in and out, doing His will.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

[Chapter 71]
1 And it came to pass after this that my spirit was translated
And it ascended into the heavens:
And I saw the holy sons of God.
They were stepping on flames of fire:
Their garments were white [and their raiment],
And their faces shone like snow.
2 And I saw two streams of fire,
And the light of that fire shone like hyacinth,
And I fell on my face before the Lord of Spirits.
3 And the angel Michael [one of the archangels] seized me by my right hand,
And lifted me up and led me forth into all the secrets,
And he showed me all the secrets of righteousness.
4 And he showed me all the secrets of the ends of the heaven,

And all the chambers of all the stars, and all the luminaries,
Whence they proceed before the face of the holy ones.

5 And he translated my spirit into the heaven of heavens,
And I saw there as it were a structure built of crystals,
And between those crystals tongues of living fire.
6 And my spirit saw the girdle which girt that house of fire,
And on its four sides were streams full of living fire,
And they girt that house.
7 And round about were Seraphin, Cherubic, and Ophannin:
And these are they who sleep not
And guard the throne of His glory.
8 And I saw angels who could not be counted,
A thousand thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand,
Encircling that house.
And Michael, and Raphael, and Gabriel, and Phanuel,
And the holy angels who are above the heavens,
Go in and out of that house.
9 And they came forth from that house,
And Michael and Gabriel, Raphael and Phanuel,
And many holy angels without number.
10 And with them the Head of Days,
His head white and pure as wool,
And His raiment indescribable.

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That's just the thing, I reject Enoch and Jasher as being canonical scripture. To me, they're just extra-biblical writings.

Secondly, the sun is a lot larger than the moon.

Jadis40 said:

That's just the thing, I reject Enoch and Jasher as being inspired scripture. To me, they're just extra-biblical writings.

Secondly, the sun is a lot larger than the moon.

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But you write your own "bible", to contradict what God says. Who inspires your doctrine which contradicts the Word of God? -do you know?
Jasher is history, just as Joshua, Judges, Ruth, Samuel, Kings, Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther are history.
But Enoch is Scripture. Jesus called it Scripture and the foundational doctrines of:
the Son of Man in heaven from the beginning who was with God and who was God, who was hidden until the time of His revealing "to the elect";
the Book of Life;
Sheol -Hades- beneath earth;
the fall of the watchers;
the origin of demons;
the reason for the flood of Noah;
the great tribulation which is to come;
the archangels;
the week of earth's thousand year days;
Salvation in the name of the Son of Man who was to come and is now come, for the sons of Adam;
the lake of fire as Chaos, the Abyss and the judgment at the return of the Son of Man to reign over earth for His Sabbath of Peace, and the final judgment;
and the regeneration of all things by the Son of Man and the return of them to the Father, for His glory are all laid out in the books Jesus called "Scripture" the writings of Enoch.

busterdog said:

You can put your socks on in haste, you neednt be travelling in a straight line or an ellipse.

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It doesn't matter the shape of the route the sun takes, but that it takes this route as it travels around the earth every day. And the sun is not hastening to put its socks on it is hastening to the place it rises.

Literally speaking the sun hastily emerges from the womb each morning.

Ya'll dont give up easily.

What is the subject of this illustration?

Ecc 1:6 [One] generation passes away, and [another] generation comes

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Yep. And look how the writer illustrates this, by taking examples from the natural world that indicated the regular passage of time. The winds in their circuits, rivers flowing to the sea and returning back again, and the sun going around the earth. The writer is using his geocentric understanding of the sun going around the earth to make his point.

Assyrian said:

It doesn't matter the shape of the route the sun takes, but that it takes this route as it travels around the earth every day. And the sun is not hastening to put its socks on it is hastening to the place it rises.

Yep. And look how the writer illustrates this, by taking examples from the natural world that indicated the regular passage of time. The winds in their circuits, rivers flowing to the sea and returning back again, and the sun going around the earth. The writer is using his geocentric understanding of the sun going around the earth to make his point.

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Generations arent circles.

Winds are almost circles, but that also, that is, as they say, a slim reed upon which to lean.

vossler said:

Frustrating is certainly a way to describe this. My hand was shown at the beginning, for reasons I don't know nor at this point care to know, you've decided to hold back yours. I've only asked the question what seems like a dozen times and yet I've still yet to receive a direct answer, but instead I keep getting questions posed to me. At this point I'm no longer interested in participating in whatever game you are playing.

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Have you ever taught anyone math before? When you want someone to learn a new technique, you don't give them the answer beforehand. You walk them through the method that should be used to derive the correct answer, and then tell them the answer. The conclusion isn't half as important as the journey sometimes.

And no, I think you've only asked me about four times, not a dozen. Five maybe.

The short answer is that

the overall meaning of the passage does not change;
the particular meaning of the verse, however, does change.

That much is obvious. I wanted you to see it for yourself.

What concerns me more is how flippantly you dismiss the particular meaning of the verse when it doesn't jive with your preconceived notions of physical reality. After all, a "passage" is really just a collection of verses, and its meaning only comes out of the combined meaning of all the verses that make it.

Take this verse:
Now the point of this passage isn't about Elisha's walking; it's about how God dealt with the youth who were mocking him. And yet one meaning doesn't invalidate the other. The author of this passage was trying to communicate that God punished the youth who were threatening Elisha and that Elisha was walking from Jericho to Bethel.

Or this verse:
The point of this passage isn't that the father ran to his son; it's the unfailing love of the father for his son. And yet you know that Jesus was trying to communicate both that the father's love for his son was undying and that the father ran to greet the son.

So, when you come to verses like Psalm 19:4-5, why do you so naturally and easily conclude that the psalmist is trying to proclaim God's glory but not that the sun moves around the earth? Why is it so natural for you to incorporate one meaning but not another?

Because if that is overextending the meaning of Biblical verses, I could as easily say that creationists' use of proof-texts like:

Exodus 20:11 (how does a six-day creation change the meaning of the Ten Commandments?)
Mark 10:6 (how does the geological recentness of man change God's abhorrence for divorce?)
Romans 5:12 (how does man's evolvedness change the fact that sin and holiness cannot be mixed?)

are equally irresponsible. And if YECism isn't Biblical, what reason does it have to exist?

In the final analysis, I would agree exactly with your reasoning (except that you don't take it far enough ;P), and so would Graeme Goldsworthy, an eminent conservative Australian theologian and author who said:

busterdog said:

Generations arent circles.

Winds are almost circles, but that also, that is, as they say, a slim reed upon which to lean.

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What have winds and generations being circles got to do with it? We are looking at examples the writer draws from the natural world to show how time passes and natural cycles repeat themselves? And you are saying if he was to describe the sun going in a circle around the earth all the other process he used would have to be circles? That makes no sense. As I pointed out he doesn't even discuss the shape of the sun's path, just that it is the sun that moves, regularly every day.

His point is that it is a regular cycle, (cycle not circle) and we have his description of the sun's motion about the earth in a series of examples drawn from the natural world. The writer was a geocentrist and he used his geocentric view of the cosmos as an illustration in Ecclesiastes.

Assyrian said:

What have winds and generations being circles got to do with it? We are looking at examples the writer draws from the natural world to show how time passes and natural cycles repeat themselves? And you are saying if he was to describe the sun going in a circle around the earth all the other process he used would have to be circles? That makes no sense. As I pointed out he doesn't even discuss the shape of the sun's path, just that it is the sun that moves, regularly every day.

His point is that it is a regular cycle, (cycle not circle) and we have his description of the sun's motion about the earth in a series of examples drawn from the natural world. The writer was a geocentrist and he used his geocentric view of the cosmos as an illustration in Ecclesiastes.

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At this point, I kind of need a TE reality check. I am not sure why we are bothering with this discussion if the variation in the meanings for the Hebrew words are of no significance.

Tell me why this view of the writer is not even on the table, or is it: "A generation is born, ages and another generation is born to take its place. The sun, likewise emerges at dawn as from the womb. The next day a new sunrise is born, like a new generation."

Tell me whether a geocentrist view is REQUIRED by such a use of language.

What gives anyone right to read out the notion of "birth", as opposed to relative motion, out of the idioms that Solomon uses?

There is some support for geocentrism in the passage, but it is poor evidence on which to convict a man of ignorance.

quote=yeshuasavedme;49759650

The sun isn't putting on socks. Your "wisdom" is foolishness.
The sun is hasting along it's course/pathway/higyway/ thouroughfare. It goes forth from its chamber and runs it's highway, returning to come out again.

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Except there is nothing in the verse that implies the concept of a path, or highway. I can make perfect sense of the verse without an astronomical inference, upon which the verse is ambiguous at best.

The whole passage is about cycles, vanity, and wisdom.
Generations rise in their day and go down in their night, so to speak. What is the profit a man has for all his labor in his days?

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Again, generations are not cycles, except in The Lion King. When a man dies, he does not come back. The notion of a highway leading back to the same point (like an orbit) is not part of the language referring to generations. So, what is the passage saying about the sun? "Gee, Mr. sunrise, you sure resemble the guy who was here yesterday, who could pass for your father." That is as good as any reading, it would also be clear from the main thesis of these passages, that the idioms are for the purposes of illustrating the thesis about life, not for the purpose of declaring how the sun moves.[/quote]

Ecc 1:3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? -while he dwells on earth in his flesh
[One] generation passeth away, and [another] generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea [is] not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

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Here is another use of the word that you use to "go down":

Gen 4:3 And in process 7093 of time 3117 it came to pass, that Cain 7014 brought 935 of the fruit 6529 of the ground 127 an offering 4503 unto the LORD 3068.

Cain's offering did not "move" or "go down", but rather was essentially harvested, collected, brought in and/or dispensed.

The passage is quite clear about the baffling nature of the patterns of nature. The rivers are always replenished and the sea is never full. The sun emerges, disappears, and somehow emerges again. How is that a reference to knowledge of orbital mechanics, as opposed to lack of knowledge of how things come and go generally?

All the words attributed as references to relative motion simply offer many other meanings. When the verse was translated, obviously our English idiom for sunrise and sunset were used. But, what was the Hebrew idiom? Did they speak of the sun "rising" or being "born" each day? No one has offered anything other than the Fiddler on the Roof, admittedly Jewish, to support this implied meaning from the Hebrew text.

I understand that arguments can be made out of the text for geocentrism, but the possibilities raised by the Hebrew are too obvious to ignore. We need to agree that they are there, otherwise, I think we are too far apart to continue discussing.

busterdog said:

At this point, I kind of need a TE reality check. I am not sure why we are bothering with this discussion if the variation in the meanings for the Hebrew words are of no significance.

Tell me why this view of the writer is not even on the table, or is it: "A generation is born, ages and another generation is born to take its place. The sun, likewise emerges at dawn as from the womb. The next day a new sunrise is born, like a new generation."

Tell me whether a geocentrist view is REQUIRED by such a use of language.

What gives anyone right to read out the notion of "birth", as opposed to relative motion, out of the idioms that Solomon uses?

There is some support for geocentrism in the passage, but it is poor evidence on which to convict a man of ignorance.

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How do you get from
Eccles 1:5 The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.
to
The sun, likewise emerges at dawn as from the womb. The next day a new sunrise is born, like a new generation."

Why is the plain meaning of the text so difficult for literalists to follow?
Why do literalists find it so easy to make put completely obscure meanings when the literal meaning does not suit them?

Assyrian said:

How do you get from
Eccles 1:5 The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.
to
The sun, likewise emerges at dawn as from the womb. The next day a new sunrise is born, like a new generation."

Why is the plain meaning of the text so difficult for literalists to follow?
Why do literalists find it so easy to make put completely obscure meanings when the literal meaning does not suit them?

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You use the word "obscure" with reference to the Hebrew meangins I cited. Apparently, either Strong's is an obscure source, or the slightest concession is again anathema to your evolutionary worldview.

My arguments are well supported by accepted reference guides.

This is one reason YECs have such confidence. We learn to stick to our guns when the objections to our arguments don't even allow the most faint recognition for the obvious.

If you can't give Solomon the benefit of the doubt, I certainly feel I am in good company.

So where is the word for womb in Eccles 1:5?

Notice that nobody offering any kind of defence of heliocentrist readings of Scripture has been able to tackle the "returning" that is a feature of both the passages in Psalm and Job.

Yes, the sun rises, and the sun sets. But in what sense can the sun "return" to a place that it has never left? Even in the phenomenological interpretation "returning" is not quite accurate - the sun rises from a slightly different place, at a slightly different time, every morning, due to the tilt of the earth and such things.

Assyrian said:

So where is the word for womb in Eccles 1:5?

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Dont put words in my mouth and go get the Strongs.

And, no Shernren, I can read what you are saying. I just see the post, I know its like the first thought you have when you see the Butler walk into the same room as Moe Howard carrying a pie. You just know how its going to end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwirWWnzJKM&feature=related

busterdog said:

Except there is nothing in the verse that implies the concept of a path, or highway. I can make perfect sense of the verse without an astronomical inference, upon which the verse is ambiguous at best.

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Psalm 19: 5 Psa 19:5 Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
race = 'orach 1) way, path a) path, road
AV — way 26, path 25, highway 1,


coming out =yatsa' 1) to go out, come out, exit, go forth ...

4) to come or go forth (with purpose or for result)



Psa 19:6 His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
going forth mowtsa'1) act or place of going out or forth, issue, export, source, spring

circuit 1) coming round, circuit of time or space, a turning, circuit

busterdog said:

Dont put words in my mouth and go get the Strongs.

And, no Shernren, I can read what you are saying. I just see the post, I know its like the first thought you have when you see the Butler walk into the same room as Moe Howard carrying a pie. You just know how its going to end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwirWWnzJKM&feature=related

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In other words you're dodging the argument you know you have no answer for. How gentlemanly of you. ^^