Implications of an Active Agent in General Revelation

[Paleouss]

Looking for insight and discussion on verses regarding general revelation that suggest an active agent.

Rom 1:19 "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them".

Active agent here is "God" by stating "God has shown it to them". Appears to assert it has been shown and does not say it has been placed to be found (active agent would then be man through searching). Not suggesting man cannot search, only that the active agent in this verse appears to be God not man.

Psa 19:4 “Their voice goes out through all the earth” (Psa 19:4).

Here in Psalms 19:1-4, the active agent is the “voice” (Psa 19:4) that “declares” (Psa 19:1), “proclaims” (Psa 19:1), and “pours out speech” (Psa 19:2).

Acts 14:16 “did not leave himself without witness".

Here the active agent appears to be God that actively gave good through experiences of “rains” and “fruitful seasons” (Act 14:17)

Prov 1:20 “Wisdom cries aloud in the street, in the markets she raises her voice”.

Not a traditional natural revelation verse but, here wisdom is an active agent that is crying “aloud” and raising “her voice” in the public streets.

Job 12
7 “But ask the beasts, and they will teach you;
the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you;
8 or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you;
and the fish of the sea will declare to you.

Here the active agent is the beasts that will “teach you”, the birds that will “tell you”, the fish that will “declare to you” (Job 12:8)

My focused point for this thread is the question: Does the Bible teach/suggest that God is the active agent in general revelation?

The debate here, as far as I intend, is not the question on whether mankind can go searching and find the fingerprints of God through His creation. Or the question on whether we can know of God through deliberation upon the grandeur. But does the Bible suggest that God is the active agent? And if so, what implications does this have?

 

[bling]

James 1: 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

Yes, God is very active, but you have to ask expecting to get it. It is contingent on man.

 

[Paleouss]

Thanks bling for your response. I should have clarified that this natural revelation is related to the natural man in which Paul speaks in Romans 1:19.

 

[bling]

A tree is evidence for God if you want it to be evidence for God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Active agent here is "God" by stating "God has shown it to them". Appears to assert it has been shown and does not say it has been placed to be found (active agent would then be man through searching). Not suggesting man cannot search, only that the active agent in this verse appears to be God not man.

Good philosophical pursuit of Theology supports, "In him we live and move and have our being." —not mere Deism. Logically, God's Immanence is not partial.

Here in Psalms 19:1-4, the active agent is the “voice” (Psa 19:4) that “declares” (Psa 19:1), “proclaims” (Psa 19:1), and “pours out speech” (Psa 19:2).

Here the active agent appears to be God that actively gave good through experiences of “rains” and “fruitful seasons” (Act 14:17)

Not a traditional natural revelation verse but, here wisdom is an active agent that is crying “aloud” and raising “her voice” in the public streets.

Here the active agent is the beasts that will “teach you”, the birds that will “tell you”, the fish that will “declare to you” (Job 12:8)

My focused point for this thread is the question: Does the Bible teach/suggest that God is the active agent in general revelation?

The debate here, as far as I intend, is not the question on whether mankind can go searching and find the fingerprints of God through His creation. Or the question on whether we can know of God through deliberation upon the grandeur. But does the Bible suggest that God is the active agent? And if so, what implications does this have?

To avoid the appearance of Pantheism and its related religious notions, I will say at the outset that the Universe is not God, nor is God comprised of anything in the Universe.

But the universe did, as far as I can tell, and to the best of my ability to describe, "proceed from" God, in some sense. Not just 'it is caused by God' in the sense that he rearranged already existing fact that he did not create, but that, very reality is made by God. You might say, "God invented 'fact'". It doesn't control him, but it is "OF" him, though it is 'other than' him.

Don't take my opinion over Scripture. Consider the conjecture that the smallest subparticle of matter/energy is something of God, perhaps even his love —something perhaps more "physical" than we are ready to accept concerning such abstracts. My opinion is that there is at least something to that notion.

 

[Fervent]

Some of the agency is figurative language, especially in the Psalms. but God is certainly actively revealing who He is within creation, and as Aquinas said God is pure act so when it comes to Him there is no passive apprehension. Unbelief is not ignorance of God, but deliberate suppression of the truth.

 

[Paleouss]

but God is certainly actively revealing who He is within creation

Hi Fervent, hope your day is a good one.

What is meant by "actively revealing", more specifically? I do not disagree with anything you said. Just digging a little deeper.

So we don't run off in all sorts of directions lets me stick to Rom 1&2 to start. There are two very imortant phrases, to me. The first is "God has shown it to them" (Rom 1:19). It doesn't say God put it out there for mankind to find. It doesn't say it is hidden or that is is something that can be contimplated. It says God has shown it to them, specifically. Of course all this is about the natural man. The second is, "so that they are without excuse" (Rom 1:20).

I find it very interesting that what God has "shown them" (v19) makes all of them "without excuse" (v20). This means the least interested, the least outdoors type, least interested in nature, theology, philosophy, physics, insert anything else here... is without exsuse.

That is a pretty significant assertion. It seems to me to be a bigger one than just saying we can see the fingerprints of the sculptor in his sculpture.

and as Aquinas said God is pure act so when it comes to Him there is no passive apprehension.

Since you mentioned Aquinas. Do you hold as Aquinas, Locke, and Edwards did that, the mind is at first like tabula rasa on which nothing is written? (I acknowledge each was slightly different) To me, this has to do with this topic. Although it is a lot further ahead of the discussion than we currently find ourselves, IMO.

Unbelief is not ignorance of God, but deliberate suppression of the truth.

I totally agree. In fact, Rom 1:19-21 say just that. So the question becomes, how do they get this truth within them? Especially if they don't want to know it or look for it.


May God do a good work through through you.

 

[Paleouss]

God's Immanence is not partial.

Hi Mark, thanks for responding.

Just what I'm looking for, Immanence. So even though it is true, what fervent said, that much of the psalms appear to be "figerative language". I find it interesting that all the natural revelation quotes we find in the Bible have active agent voices.

To avoid the appearance of Pantheism and its related religious notions, I will say at the outset that the Universe is not God, nor is God comprised of anything in the Universe.

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, neither of us suggest Pantheism.

I will assert presence. What could that presence be but the Spirit.


May you be a vessel of God

 

[Fervent]

Hi Fervent, hope your day is a good one.

What is meant by "actively revealing", more specifically? I do not disagree with anything you said. Just digging a little deeper.

So we don't run off in all sorts of directions lets me stick to Rom 1&2 to start. There are two very imortant phrases, to me. The first is "God has shown it to them" (Rom 1:19). It doesn't say God put it out there for mankind to find. It doesn't say it is hidden or that is is something that can be contimplated. It says God has shown it to them, specifically. Of course all this is about the natural man. The second is, "so that they are without excuse" (Rom 1:20).

I find it very interesting that what God has "shown them" (v19) makes all of them "without excuse" (v20). This means the least interested, the least outdoors type, least interested in nature, theology, philosophy, physics, insert anything else here... is without exsuse.

That is a pretty significant assertion. It seems to me to be a bigger one than just saying we can see the fingerprints of the sculptor in his sculpture.



Since you mentioned Aquinas. Do you hold as Aquinas, Locke, and Edwards did that, the mind is at first like tabula rasa on which nothing is written? (I acknowledge each was slightly different) To me, this has to do with this topic. Although it is a lot further ahead of the discussion than we currently find ourselves, IMO.


I totally agree. In fact, Rom 1:19-21 say just that. So the question becomes, how do they get this truth within them? Especially if they don't want to know it or look for it.


May God do a good work through through you.

Actively revealing simply means that at every moment, we are confronted by the fact of God's existence through His continuing creative act. Because everything that exists is dependent upon God's continued action, the only way to deny Him is through self-deception.

As for the initial state, no I don't believe we are blank slates. We are born with knowledge, though I do not know the extent and content of that knowledge beyond being aware of God.

 

[Paleouss]

Actively revealing simply means that at every moment, we are confronted by the fact of God's existence through His continuing creative act. Because everything that exists is dependent upon God's continued action, the only way to deny Him is through self-deception.

I like it. I like the words "every moment" and "confronted". These imply 'continually' and suggest man being a passive agent by using the term "confronted"

Human beings are a creation that learns from exprience. We, the passive agent, are confronted, meaning actively taught, by God in every moment of our experiences. It tells us such in Rom (1:19) "God has shown it to them" and this every moment confrontation we experience through our purposful experiences leave natural man "without excuse" (Rom 1:21).