Impenetrable Doubt

[Mike Anderson]

Allow me to preface this post with a forewarning to all, that this post is indeed going to be rather lengthy. However, through my personal experience I can only hope that this information sparks serious and intense discussion in regards to faith as it relates to wholly the absolute truth and nothing but the absolute truth. With that being said, allow me to offer you some background. I have always been a person who viewed the world in a not-so-strict code of interralation between two or more potentially causally linked entities. I am a person who likes to break down the world into its most essential and grounded parts. Therefore, it would seem only natural that I would find satisfaction in pursuing the various sciences. Now, at some stage of "life", I made a full-hearted and earnest commitment to the doctrinal beliefs I held as a
Christian. But unfortunately that meant that I had to create a paradigm in which the full truths of Christ and his message, as well as the truths given to us by the visible and natural world can coexist. Such an attempt yielded very little in the way of a coherent worldview. How could I reconcile the physical and self-evident metaphysical truths which have been given to me, with the biblical one? And so I was left, scouring through various sources, reading and rereading different parts of the Bible, with a singular hope that remained. If perhaps, I could understand the will and nature of God himself, then just maybe I would be able to see the natural and supernatural come together in a way I would've never thought of. I regret to say, that such a venture also yielded little in the way of results; too many inconsistencies, contradictions, and logical gaps have remained. Throughout this all, one thought remained in my mind. "How cruel is it for a person like me, to be left with substantial doubt, only after trying to seek after the very entity which I have put my faith in!". You see, I have considered myself a devout and earnest Christian for my entire life. I am fully aware of the message of Christ, his dying salvation, and his transcendental divinity. However, what is not so plainly visible to me are the grounds on which I should put my faith in him. Experience is one thing, it may convince some, but not necessarily others. "Feeling" God's presence i have felt, is an unworthy justification for faith. I have "felt" such a thing that could only be described as God's love during earnest prayer. Plenty of things can generate such a feeling; an improper balance of hormones, the stimulus by an electric shock, or even the steak you had for dinner. It could very well be the case that such an experience is deep and meaningful for a multitude of people, but not necessarily for me. If we understand God to be the absolute truth, shouldn't he undertake a form so much more beautiful and grand than anything we could possibly perceive? But if we couldn't perceive him that would cast doubt once more into the very existence of such an entity; a potential paradox. While I may not yet understand exactly why other people put their faith in Christ, I understand what drives me to try to seek him daily. Personally, I have tried to satisfy myself by the pleasures that the things of this world bring, by the things in which other people find enjoyment. Such a thing, fails to work for me, and I believe to a larger extent, anyone who has not found the absolute truth. For you see, we as humans constantly grapple with this thing called life, and with its daily struggles. Things we put our faith in all must come to an end. The sun, the Earth, and even the universe must come to an end. These vast and ever immutable entities still cannot give us true satisfaction. No, we need to find absolute truth, an absolute truth that gives us hope, something to live for. Further, one can make out that such a truth should be personal, as what good is this truth if it fills no void within ourselves. This hunger which is in me to seek out this objective truth , is the very thing that gives me hope in its existence. If a man is dying of thirst, that must mean water exists, right? The same goes for hunger, and hopefully even God. The point is, I know that there is some absolute truth out there, there must necessarily be. The very thing from which everything else follows, must necessarily exist based upon the laws of causality, and what we know about the origins of the universe. I pray everyday for the grandest being of all to make himself personally known to me, regardless of evidence, in a way that I can be sure the message is coming from outside of myself. Nothing outside this truth will fulfill me, absolutely nothing.

 

[rockytopva]

I am a white guy and was brought up in a dysfunctional family in the military. The kids at school were not to kind and I graduated last in my class.

We had a Word of Faith church arise in the 1990's and they had members who use to play football for Virginia Tech who were all black. These guys were all the time talking faith things in existence. They would say, "I am getting out of here" and then lay out a plan they had going. If you said you felt bad they would immediately want to pray with you, so you learned not to complain about things. They were continually challenging me by asking, "What are you believing God for?" And expecting to hear some great plans on my behalf.

I then began to have faith. I have done quite well since. I have two houses paid for, in which I let other family members stay there, two Harley's, two AAS degrees Magna Cum Laude, won the Who's Who Award, First Place at a Radford University Programming Contest, have moved into the Lab at work, and have a nice car, truck and a jeep. And I am totally debt free. It all started with my Word of Faith brothers in whom I hold dear.

I have since put together a YouTube site at youtube.com/rockytopva where I try to encourage others to have faith, as my brothers onetime did for me. In my videos I try to highlight men who were failures, but grew daily in their Christian walk, and then ended up like men of God such as Smith Wigglesworth.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Mike Anderson]

The sun and moon will not come to an end.
God has shown us many things to reveal His
relationship desires with us since the beginning.
He walked with Adam after creating him from dust.
We go back to dust, not some in between other creature
as science would have people deceived by evolution. Beasts
made from dirt also return to dust. Flowers have been found with
what some call pre-historic man. Adam had to till the soil...tend the
garden where trees were. God had Adam name the animals. God named
the earth...ground...and the sea. Nearly all languages on earth still use those terms today. God confounded the languages. Egypt in Hebrew is the name of a grandson of Noah. God set His bow in the cloud.
John the Baptist came as the prophesied forerunner
of Jesus Christ. Many religions vouch that John lived and
was teaching. Josephus and others noted Jesus as called
Christ...by Christians. Jesus Christ came in Bethlehem in the
time slot written by Daniel in chapter 9.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Allow me to preface this post with a forewarning to all, that this post is indeed going to be rather lengthy. However, through my personal experience I can only hope that this information sparks serious and intense discussion in regards to faith as it relates to wholly the absolute truth and nothing but the absolute truth. With that being said, allow me to offer you some background. I have always been a person who viewed the world in a not-so-strict code of interralation between two or more potentially causally linked entities. I am a person who likes to break down the world into its most essential and grounded parts. Therefore, it would seem only natural that I would find satisfaction in pursuing the various sciences. Now, at some stage of "life", I made a full-hearted and earnest commitment to the doctrinal beliefs I held as a
Christian. But unfortunately that meant that I had to create a paradigm in which the full truths of Christ and his message, as well as the truths given to us by the visible and natural world can coexist. Such an attempt yielded very little in the way of a coherent worldview. How could I reconcile the physical and self-evident metaphysical truths which have been given to me, with the biblical one? And so I was left, scouring through various sources, reading and rereading different parts of the Bible, with a singular hope that remained. If perhaps, I could understand the will and nature of God himself, then just maybe I would be able to see the natural and supernatural come together in a way I would've never thought of. I regret to say, that such a venture also yielded little in the way of results; too many inconsistencies, contradictions, and logical gaps have remained. Throughout this all, one thought remained in my mind. "How cruel is it for a person like me, to be left with substantial doubt, only after trying to seek after the very entity which I have put my faith in!". You see, I have considered myself a devout and earnest Christian for my entire life. I am fully aware of the message of Christ, his dying salvation, and his transcendental divinity. However, what is not so plainly visible to me are the grounds on which I should put my faith in him. Experience is one thing, it may convince some, but not necessarily others. "Feeling" God's presence i have felt, is an unworthy justification for faith. I have "felt" such a thing that could only be described as God's love during earnest prayer. Plenty of things can generate such a feeling; an improper balance of hormones, the stimulus by an electric shock, or even the steak you had for dinner. It could very well be the case that such an experience is deep and meaningful for a multitude of people, but not necessarily for me. If we understand God to be the absolute truth, shouldn't he undertake a form so much more beautiful and grand than anything we could possibly perceive? But if we couldn't perceive him that would cast doubt once more into the very existence of such an entity; a potential paradox. While I may not yet understand exactly why other people put their faith in Christ, I understand what drives me to try to seek him daily. Personally, I have tried to satisfy myself by the pleasures that the things of this world bring, by the things in which other people find enjoyment. Such a thing, fails to work for me, and I believe to a larger extent, anyone who has not found the absolute truth. For you see, we as humans constantly grapple with this thing called life, and with its daily struggles. Things we put our faith in all must come to an end. The sun, the Earth, and even the universe must come to an end. These vast and ever immutable entities still cannot give us true satisfaction. No, we need to find absolute truth, an absolute truth that gives us hope, something to live for. Further, one can make out that such a truth should be personal, as what good is this truth if it fills no void within ourselves. This hunger which is in me to seek out this objective truth , is the very thing that gives me hope in its existence. If a man is dying of thirst, that must mean water exists, right? The same goes for hunger, and hopefully even God. The point is, I know that there is some absolute truth out there, there must necessarily be. The very thing from which everything else follows, must necessarily exist based upon the laws of causality, and what we know about the origins of the universe. I pray everyday for the grandest being of all to make himself personally known to me, regardless of evidence, in a way that I can be sure the message is coming from outside of myself. Nothing outside this truth will fulfill me, absolutely nothing.

Hi Mike,

Everything you've said resonates with me because, to some extent, I've encountered similar thoughts and have been forced to grapple with similar evaluations about the nature of Christian faith. After everything I've studied, prayed about, fought against, and have felt as various forms of existential anxiety, I was finally able to face up to the fact that while I'm alive in the body that God has given me, I most likely will not find anything which gives me the "absolute assurance" that most of us would like to have. Now, I'm a Realist, and I take life as it is, still with hope and faith in Christ that He'll do whatever it is He feels He needs to do to get me through life and into His eternal grace. Yet, I hold my hope and faith with little expectation that He will somehow just "show up" in some kind of epistemically calibrated form of "absoluteness" than I can reach out and hold onto forevermore.

I fully understand your felt need to reach out and receive something "absolute" from the Hand of God. The only thing is, you're going to have to accept as a given the epistemic state in which He has left humanity, as implied in Deuteronomy 29:29.

Philosophically, this is just how it is, and the truth is, all but a handful of humanity will receive that "absolute" form of validation they think they so desperately seek, such as that which Doubting Thomas was seeking and received. The rest of us have to believe without that "absolute" form of validation ... and that's just how it is. But, someday, when we all pass from this life, or Jesus actually Returns, then we will finally receive that "absolute" validation that we so long for.

So, do yourself a favor and don't short-change yourself by trying to ground your attempt at faith on some perceived "absolute." Even though it's not an impossibility that God could show up in "absolute" terms in your life, it isn't a right that we can take and wave before the face of God. So, in the meantime, take what is given through the history of the Church and through the Word of God and live your life, as well as live out your faith in Christ.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[archer75]

Faith is the "crown" of reason. Our reason flubs along connecting the dots, but that's its defect. It should perceive "all at once". So in a way, faith is a taste of "unfallen" reason.

In my opinion, if you really stick to the standard you have set up, nothing will ever meet it. Because you are, in my opinion, using a ruler to "make sure" that the dress is red. Good luck, though. Just wanted to say this.

 

[Mike Anderson]

Thanks for your replies

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thanks for your replies

Mike, you need to use the "reply" button in the lower, right hand corner of a person's post so we can tell specifically who you are responding to, unless you're trying to address all of us at once.

Thanks,
2PhiloVoid

 

[John 1720]

Allow me to preface this post with a forewarning to all, that this post is indeed going to be rather lengthy. However, through my personal experience I can only hope that this information sparks serious and intense discussion in regards to faith as it relates to wholly the absolute truth and nothing but the absolute truth. With that being said, allow me to offer you some background. I have always been a person who viewed the world in a not-so-strict code of interralation between two or more potentially causally linked entities. I am a person who likes to break down the world into its most essential and grounded parts. Therefore, it would seem only natural that I would find satisfaction in pursuing the various sciences. Now, at some stage of "life", I made a full-hearted and earnest commitment to the doctrinal beliefs I held as a
Christian. But unfortunately that meant that I had to create a paradigm in which the full truths of Christ and his message, as well as the truths given to us by the visible and natural world can coexist. Such an attempt yielded very little in the way of a coherent worldview. How could I reconcile the physical and self-evident metaphysical truths which have been given to me, with the biblical one? And so I was left, scouring through various sources, reading and rereading different parts of the Bible, with a singular hope that remained. If perhaps, I could understand the will and nature of God himself, then just maybe I would be able to see the natural and supernatural come together in a way I would've never thought of. I regret to say, that such a venture also yielded little in the way of results; too many inconsistencies, contradictions, and logical gaps have remained. Throughout this all, one thought remained in my mind. "How cruel is it for a person like me, to be left with substantial doubt, only after trying to seek after the very entity which I have put my faith in!". You see, I have considered myself a devout and earnest Christian for my entire life. I am fully aware of the message of Christ, his dying salvation, and his transcendental divinity. However, what is not so plainly visible to me are the grounds on which I should put my faith in him. Experience is one thing, it may convince some, but not necessarily others. "Feeling" God's presence i have felt, is an unworthy justification for faith. I have "felt" such a thing that could only be described as God's love during earnest prayer. Plenty of things can generate such a feeling; an improper balance of hormones, the stimulus by an electric shock, or even the steak you had for dinner. It could very well be the case that such an experience is deep and meaningful for a multitude of people, but not necessarily for me. If we understand God to be the absolute truth, shouldn't he undertake a form so much more beautiful and grand than anything we could possibly perceive? But if we couldn't perceive him that would cast doubt once more into the very existence of such an entity; a potential paradox. While I may not yet understand exactly why other people put their faith in Christ, I understand what drives me to try to seek him daily. Personally, I have tried to satisfy myself by the pleasures that the things of this world bring, by the things in which other people find enjoyment. Such a thing, fails to work for me, and I believe to a larger extent, anyone who has not found the absolute truth. For you see, we as humans constantly grapple with this thing called life, and with its daily struggles. Things we put our faith in all must come to an end. The sun, the Earth, and even the universe must come to an end. These vast and ever immutable entities still cannot give us true satisfaction. No, we need to find absolute truth, an absolute truth that gives us hope, something to live for. Further, one can make out that such a truth should be personal, as what good is this truth if it fills no void within ourselves. This hunger which is in me to seek out this objective truth , is the very thing that gives me hope in its existence. If a man is dying of thirst, that must mean water exists, right? The same goes for hunger, and hopefully even God. The point is, I know that there is some absolute truth out there, there must necessarily be. The very thing from which everything else follows, must necessarily exist based upon the laws of causality, and what we know about the origins of the universe. I pray everyday for the grandest being of all to make himself personally known to me, regardless of evidence, in a way that I can be sure the message is coming from outside of myself. Nothing outside this truth will fulfill me, absolutely nothing.

Welcome to CF Mike! I see this is your first post here. Everyone goes through phases where we are looking for answers beyond ourselves. This is how we learn so seeking is a good enterprise. It usually occurs when we are exposed to realities beyond what our former worldview was. (.e.g. The class clown who used to find humor in mostly everything finds himself in the middle of a war - challenging him to question everything and what life is really all about.) In every phase of our life we are going to come up smack against that impenetrable wall where we simply don't have answers from our repository and we're not able to make sense of it all.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Now, at some stage of "life", I made a full-hearted and earnest commitment to the doctrinal beliefs I held as a
Christian. But unfortunately that meant that I had to create a paradigm in which the full truths of Christ and his message, as well as the truths given to us by the visible and natural world can coexist. Such an attempt yielded very little in the way of a coherent worldview. How could I reconcile the physical and self-evident metaphysical truths which have been given to me, with the biblical one? And so I was left, scouring through various sources, reading and rereading different parts of the Bible, with a singular hope that remained.

The main point of Christ's message and the entire New Testament is faith. It is that in the human being is a spiritual side and that God has created each of us with that spiritual side which is what God is all about. Not living this life as a being all for oneself and only satisfying oneself but realizing that God created us to not only be about self but to be about the higher spiritual truths in this life.

I read many posts by people like yourself who seem to not see that faith is spiritual and God is spiritual. Christ says that He is not of this world, that He is of His Father and that His home is in heavenly places wiht His Father. Us, being God's Children and co-heirs with Christ, our home is also not of this earth as our final residence.

What I see as the issue with many people, may also be like yourself, it seems to be is that they believe that God and faith are some logical, proven thing. And they seek to bring up God against science and logic. But God never said that His world or even His reason for creating us was based upon earthly things, in fact He says the opposite.

Maybe your issue is that you want to create God to be what you think God should be, rather than reading and learning who God is? God looks at our heart and what permeates from our hearts, which goes all the way back to our motivations and desires, why we do what we do. The why is just as important to Him as the action.

If you want to look at God as this logical extension of science and logic then you are missing the entire spiritual piece, which will give you a very partial understanding and you will creating God to be what you think He ought to be, rather than finding out who God is and then having a relationship with God.

If you have never put your faith in Him, than you are never going to experience God because God tells us all that faith and belief are the first step.

But you can choose to pray for more faith, and God will give you more faith. The ball is in your court, so to speak, but God is not the God of your creation, you are the creation of God.

 

[Mike Anderson]

The main point of Christ's message and the entire New Testament is faith. It is that in the human being is a spiritual side and that God has created each of us with that spiritual side which is what God is all about. Not living this life as a being all for oneself and only satisfying oneself but realizing that God created us to not only be about self but to be about the higher spiritual truths in this life.

I read many posts by people like yourself who seem to not see that faith is spiritual and God is spiritual. Christ says that He is not of this world, that He is of His Father and that His home is in heavenly places wiht His Father. Us, being God's Children and co-heirs with Christ, our home is also not of this earth as our final residence.

What I see as the issue with many people, may also be like yourself, it seems to be is that they believe that God and faith are some logical, proven thing. And they seek to bring up God against science and logic. But God never said that His world or even His reason for creating us was based upon earthly things, in fact He says the opposite.

Maybe your issue is that you want to create God to be what you think God should be, rather than reading and learning who God is? God looks at our heart and what permeates from our hearts, which goes all the way back to our motivations and desires, why we do what we do. The why is just as important to Him as the action.

If you want to look at God as this logical extension of science and logic then you are missing the entire spiritual piece, which will give you a very partial understanding and you will creating God to be what you think He ought to be, rather than finding out who God is and then having a relationship with God.

If you have never put your faith in Him, than you are never going to experience God because God tells us all that faith and belief are the first step.

But you can choose to pray for more faith, and God will give you more faith. The ball is in your court, so to speak, but God is not the God of your creation, you are the creation of God.

The main point of Christ's message and the entire New Testament is faith. It is that in the human being is a spiritual side and that God has created each of us with that spiritual side which is what God is all about. Not living this life as a being all for oneself and only satisfying oneself but realizing that God created us to not only be about self but to be about the higher spiritual truths in this life.

I read many posts by people like yourself who seem to not see that faith is spiritual and God is spiritual. Christ says that He is not of this world, that He is of His Father and that His home is in heavenly places wiht His Father. Us, being God's Children and co-heirs with Christ, our home is also not of this earth as our final residence.

What I see as the issue with many people, may also be like yourself, it seems to be is that they believe that God and faith are some logical, proven thing. And they seek to bring up God against science and logic. But God never said that His world or even His reason for creating us was based upon earthly things, in fact He says the opposite.

Maybe your issue is that you want to create God to be what you think God should be, rather than reading and learning who God is? God looks at our heart and what permeates from our hearts, which goes all the way back to our motivations and desires, why we do what we do. The why is just as important to Him as the action.

If you want to look at God as this logical extension of science and logic then you are missing the entire spiritual piece, which will give you a very partial understanding and you will creating God to be what you think He ought to be, rather than finding out who God is and then having a relationship with God.

If you have never put your faith in Him, than you are never going to experience God because God tells us all that faith and belief are the first step.

But you can choose to pray for more faith, and God will give you more faith. The ball is in your court, so to speak, but God is not the God of your creation, you are the creation of God.[/QUOTE

The main point of Christ's message and the entire New Testament is faith. It is that in the human being is a spiritual side and that God has created each of us with that spiritual side which is what God is all about. Not living this life as a being all for oneself and only satisfying oneself but realizing that God created us to not only be about self but to be about the higher spiritual truths in this life.

I read many posts by people like yourself who seem to not see that faith is spiritual and God is spiritual. Christ says that He is not of this world, that He is of His Father and that His home is in heavenly places wiht His Father. Us, being God's Children and co-heirs with Christ, our home is also not of this earth as our final residence.

What I see as the issue with many people, may also be like yourself, it seems to be is that they believe that God and faith are some logical, proven thing. And they seek to bring up God against science and logic. But God never said that His world or even His reason for creating us was based upon earthly things, in fact He says the opposite.

Maybe your issue is that you want to create God to be what you think God should be, rather than reading and learning who God is? God looks at our heart and what permeates from our hearts, which goes all the way back to our motivations and desires, why we do what we do. The why is just as important to Him as the action.

If you want to look at God as this logical extension of science and logic then you are missing the entire spiritual piece, which will give you a very partial understanding and you will creating God to be what you think He ought to be, rather than finding out who God is and then having a relationship with God.

If you have never put your faith in Him, than you are never going to experience God because God tells us all that faith and belief are the first step.

But you can choose to pray for more faith, and God will give you more faith. The ball is in your court, so to speak, but God is not the God of your creation, you are the creation of God.

Please tell me what grounds your faith. I cannot believe something simply because it makes me feel good, I was raised a certain way, or because it "seems right". I can't push aside the numerous logical problems I have encountered along the way, simply to believe in something that I want to be true. No, I am not trying to create God in my image, quite the opposite. I am trying to put together the pieces he has left behind, is it so bad to try to get a more detailed albeit rudimentary outline of his plan? If such a plan existed, wouldn't we at the very least be able to find good logical reasons why god allows some things to be as the are, without figuring exactly which reason he has? Doesn't reason go hand in hand with faith? After all, God is supposed to be the origin of logic itself. If a connection between faith outside of myself and the source of absolutely everything cannot be made, then faith is a term that is only meaningful to those who simply want something that will change them or make them feel good. That's not objective truth.

 

[AvgJoe]

Allow me to preface this post with a forewarning to all, that this post is indeed going to be rather lengthy. However, through my personal experience I can only hope that this information sparks serious and intense discussion in regards to faith as it relates to wholly the absolute truth and nothing but the absolute truth. With that being said, allow me to offer you some background. I have always been a person who viewed the world in a not-so-strict code of interralation between two or more potentially causally linked entities. I am a person who likes to break down the world into its most essential and grounded parts. Therefore, it would seem only natural that I would find satisfaction in pursuing the various sciences. Now, at some stage of "life", I made a full-hearted and earnest commitment to the doctrinal beliefs I held as a
Christian. But unfortunately that meant that I had to create a paradigm in which the full truths of Christ and his message, as well as the truths given to us by the visible and natural world can coexist. Such an attempt yielded very little in the way of a coherent worldview. How could I reconcile the physical and self-evident metaphysical truths which have been given to me, with the biblical one? And so I was left, scouring through various sources, reading and rereading different parts of the Bible, with a singular hope that remained. If perhaps, I could understand the will and nature of God himself, then just maybe I would be able to see the natural and supernatural come together in a way I would've never thought of. I regret to say, that such a venture also yielded little in the way of results; too many inconsistencies, contradictions, and logical gaps have remained. Throughout this all, one thought remained in my mind. "How cruel is it for a person like me, to be left with substantial doubt, only after trying to seek after the very entity which I have put my faith in!". You see, I have considered myself a devout and earnest Christian for my entire life. I am fully aware of the message of Christ, his dying salvation, and his transcendental divinity. However, what is not so plainly visible to me are the grounds on which I should put my faith in him. Experience is one thing, it may convince some, but not necessarily others. "Feeling" God's presence i have felt, is an unworthy justification for faith. I have "felt" such a thing that could only be described as God's love during earnest prayer. Plenty of things can generate such a feeling; an improper balance of hormones, the stimulus by an electric shock, or even the steak you had for dinner. It could very well be the case that such an experience is deep and meaningful for a multitude of people, but not necessarily for me. If we understand God to be the absolute truth, shouldn't he undertake a form so much more beautiful and grand than anything we could possibly perceive? But if we couldn't perceive him that would cast doubt once more into the very existence of such an entity; a potential paradox. While I may not yet understand exactly why other people put their faith in Christ, I understand what drives me to try to seek him daily. Personally, I have tried to satisfy myself by the pleasures that the things of this world bring, by the things in which other people find enjoyment. Such a thing, fails to work for me, and I believe to a larger extent, anyone who has not found the absolute truth. For you see, we as humans constantly grapple with this thing called life, and with its daily struggles. Things we put our faith in all must come to an end. The sun, the Earth, and even the universe must come to an end. These vast and ever immutable entities still cannot give us true satisfaction. No, we need to find absolute truth, an absolute truth that gives us hope, something to live for. Further, one can make out that such a truth should be personal, as what good is this truth if it fills no void within ourselves. This hunger which is in me to seek out this objective truth , is the very thing that gives me hope in its existence. If a man is dying of thirst, that must mean water exists, right? The same goes for hunger, and hopefully even God. The point is, I know that there is some absolute truth out there, there must necessarily be. The very thing from which everything else follows, must necessarily exist based upon the laws of causality, and what we know about the origins of the universe. I pray everyday for the grandest being of all to make himself personally known to me, regardless of evidence, in a way that I can be sure the message is coming from outside of myself. Nothing outside this truth will fulfill me, absolutely nothing.

2PhiloVoid mentioned doubting Thomas and the proof he received that Jesus had risen from the dead. The story is in John 20:24-29. It reads,

24) One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (nicknamed the Twin), was not with the others when Jesus came. 25) They told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.”​

26) Eight days later the disciples were together again, and this time Thomas was with them. The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said. 27) Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!” 28) “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.​

29 Then Jesus told him, “You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.”
​

Shortly thereafter, Jesus ascended into heaven. The bolded part of verse 29 pertains to mostly all of us who have lived since Jesus' ascension. Certainly, God can reveal Himself to each of us in any manner He chooses. Saul of Tarsus, turned Paul the disciple, certainly received the absolute proof you're looking for;

Paul, who went by the name of Saul at that time, was on his way to Damascus with a letter from the high priest of the temple in Jerusalem giving him authority to arrest any who belonged to “the Way,” meaning those who followed Christ. So intent was he on “opposing the name of Jesus of Nazareth” (Acts 26:9) that in “raging fury,” he breathed “threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord.” Here was a man who truly hated Christ and all who were associated with Him.

Suddenly a bright light shone on Saul, causing his entire party to fall to the ground. Then Jesus spoke to Saul, asking him, “Why are you persecuting me?” in a voice understood only by him. Saul recognized that this was a deity of some sort because he called Him “Lord” and asked who He was. When Jesus identified Himself as the very One Saul had been persecuting, one can only imagine the terror that filled Saul’s heart. Saul was speechless, no doubt thinking to himself, “I’m a dead man.” The Acts 22 version of the story indicates that Saul’s response was to ask what Jesus wanted him to do. The Acts 9 and Acts 22 retellings of the story have Saul saying Jesus told him to rise and go to Damascus where he would be told what to do. Saul’s dramatic conversion on the road to Damascus was the beginning of an incredible journey.
​

However, experiences such as this are the exception, not the norm. The vast majority of us are blessed because we believe in Jesus even though we haven't seen Him.

 

[PollyJetix]

Allow me to preface this post with a forewarning to all, that this post is indeed going to be rather lengthy. However, through my personal experience I can only hope that this information sparks serious and intense discussion in regards to faith as it relates to wholly the absolute truth and nothing but the absolute truth. With that being said, allow me to offer you some background. I have always been a person who viewed the world in a not-so-strict code of interralation between two or more potentially causally linked entities. I am a person who likes to break down the world into its most essential and grounded parts. Therefore, it would seem only natural that I would find satisfaction in pursuing the various sciences. Now, at some stage of "life", I made a full-hearted and earnest commitment to the doctrinal beliefs I held as a
Christian. But unfortunately that meant that I had to create a paradigm in which the full truths of Christ and his message, as well as the truths given to us by the visible and natural world can coexist. Such an attempt yielded very little in the way of a coherent worldview. How could I reconcile the physical and self-evident metaphysical truths which have been given to me, with the biblical one? And so I was left, scouring through various sources, reading and rereading different parts of the Bible, with a singular hope that remained. If perhaps, I could understand the will and nature of God himself, then just maybe I would be able to see the natural and supernatural come together in a way I would've never thought of. I regret to say, that such a venture also yielded little in the way of results; too many inconsistencies, contradictions, and logical gaps have remained. Throughout this all, one thought remained in my mind. "How cruel is it for a person like me, to be left with substantial doubt, only after trying to seek after the very entity which I have put my faith in!". You see, I have considered myself a devout and earnest Christian for my entire life. I am fully aware of the message of Christ, his dying salvation, and his transcendental divinity. However, what is not so plainly visible to me are the grounds on which I should put my faith in him. Experience is one thing, it may convince some, but not necessarily others. "Feeling" God's presence i have felt, is an unworthy justification for faith. I have "felt" such a thing that could only be described as God's love during earnest prayer. Plenty of things can generate such a feeling; an improper balance of hormones, the stimulus by an electric shock, or even the steak you had for dinner. It could very well be the case that such an experience is deep and meaningful for a multitude of people, but not necessarily for me. If we understand God to be the absolute truth, shouldn't he undertake a form so much more beautiful and grand than anything we could possibly perceive? But if we couldn't perceive him that would cast doubt once more into the very existence of such an entity; a potential paradox. While I may not yet understand exactly why other people put their faith in Christ, I understand what drives me to try to seek him daily. Personally, I have tried to satisfy myself by the pleasures that the things of this world bring, by the things in which other people find enjoyment. Such a thing, fails to work for me, and I believe to a larger extent, anyone who has not found the absolute truth. For you see, we as humans constantly grapple with this thing called life, and with its daily struggles. Things we put our faith in all must come to an end. The sun, the Earth, and even the universe must come to an end. These vast and ever immutable entities still cannot give us true satisfaction. No, we need to find absolute truth, an absolute truth that gives us hope, something to live for. Further, one can make out that such a truth should be personal, as what good is this truth if it fills no void within ourselves. This hunger which is in me to seek out this objective truth , is the very thing that gives me hope in its existence. If a man is dying of thirst, that must mean water exists, right? The same goes for hunger, and hopefully even God. The point is, I know that there is some absolute truth out there, there must necessarily be. The very thing from which everything else follows, must necessarily exist based upon the laws of causality, and what we know about the origins of the universe. I pray everyday for the grandest being of all to make himself personally known to me, regardless of evidence, in a way that I can be sure the message is coming from outside of myself. Nothing outside this truth will fulfill me, absolutely nothing.

Mike Anderson...
Can man, by searching, find out God? Job 11:7
"...they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being..." Acts 17:27-28

However, in this search, it is possible to rely too much on our reasoning.
Especially for those who have a higher IQ.

It's like a body-builder with a low IQ, who sees his muscles as the answer to relationship difficulties.
He is relying on his strengths, to handle problems which those strengths are ill-equipped to correctly address.

You are blessed with a high IQ.
But a high IQ can be a handicap, if it gets in the way of receiving spiritual revelation too high for the human brain to understand.

Read 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 and then chapter 2.
Meditate on it.
Let it humble the mind to accept that which cannot be explained rationally.

It's the only way to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
The only way to receive the Kingdom as a little child.
The only way to receive the revelation of what God has prepared for you, through the spirit.

It doesn't have to be hard for one with a high IQ to learn to receive spiritual revelation.
No harder than a body-builder learning to exercise social skills.

Not many with high IQ's enter the Kingdom.
But that's not God's fault. It's their own.
Because they rely on their perceived strength, instead of humbling it before Him.

 

[John 1720]

If perhaps, I could understand the will and nature of God himself, then just maybe I would be able to see the natural and supernatural come together in a way I would've never thought of. I regret to say, that such a venture also yielded little in the way of results; too many inconsistencies, contradictions, and logical gaps have remained.

This needs some extrapolation in order to better understand your point. What was the venture, the method, the inconsistencies, contradictions, logical gaps? How deep did you go? Mining God's truths can sometimes take a lifetime - at least it has for me. the above does not give the listener a grasp on what your issue is.

Throughout this all, one thought remained in my mind. "How cruel is it for a person like me, to be left with substantial doubt, only after trying to seek after the very entity which I have put my faith in!". You see, I have considered myself a devout and earnest Christian for my entire life. I am fully aware of the message of Christ, his dying salvation, and his transcendental divinity. However, what is not so plainly visible to me are the grounds on which I should put my faith in him. Experience is one thing, it may convince some, but not necessarily others. "Feeling" God's presence i have felt, is an unworthy justification for faith.

It sounds like you are self-justifying the work you put into seeking God, by means you have not expressed to us, and believe it is high time God provided you with keen revelation, insights and answers. If I'm correctly interpreting the statement that seems a bit harsh and arrogant; for it sounds a bit like you are postulating that God owes you. Of course, if I'm misinterpreting or misconstruing your words than I apologize. However that is the way this comes across. it just sound like you are accusing God of being cruel to you. If true, then I'm not sure that demand and expectation is the attitude God desires you to have in order for Him to reveal Himself to you. Remember God resists the proud but draws near to the humble. You see I believe God did "all the work" for us in order to make His Truth be known through Christ; this mainly through His work on the cross which cannot be known unless you believe it. He did that out of Love for all of us.

There was a man called Augustine who was steeped in Greek Philosophy and pagan religion who eventually came to faith in Christ. He stated that it was like the blinders coming off. He postulated the saying, "Crede ut intelligas" - meaning "Believe in order that you may understand". Faith is a journey but it is a journey of love whereby we find all knowledge is contained with God's love. Wisdom occurs as we journey on.

• Isaiah 1:18
• Isaiah 43:24-26
• Micah 7:18-19
• Ephesians 1:6-8
• James 3:17

I have "felt" such a thing that could only be described as God's love during earnest prayer. Plenty of things can generate such a feeling; an improper balance of hormones, the stimulus by an electric shock, or even the steak you had for dinner. It could very well be the case that such an experience is deep and meaningful for a multitude of people, but not necessarily for me.

Mike, it seems like you are equating love primarily based on the physical sense of it. You associate names like hormone imbalance and self satisfaction, etc as examples. I believe you are seeing love from a narrow perspective but love is anything but narrow or emotional based. There is so much more to love than that as 1 Corinthians 13 instructs us. Experiencing God through prayer is real just as experiencing God in our walk is real. Many of us have seen miracles and answered prayers that have astounded us and thereby increased our faith in what God is able to accomplish in us. We know we do not have any power in ourselves but are dependent upon Him who does. Dismissing intimacy with God is in effect dismissing the relationship He desires to have with you in order to retain your unbelief. Unbelief is your enemy.

• John 15:5

The very thing from which everything else follows, must necessarily exist based upon the laws of causality, and what we know about the origins of the universe. I pray everyday for the grandest being of all to make himself personally known to me, regardless of evidence, in a way that I can be sure the message is coming from outside of myself. Nothing outside this truth will fulfill me, absolutely nothing.

I don't understand how you reached that conclusion. Why must God's existence be based on the laws of causality if He, according to the Bible, is the the first cause of all things? God is the maker of causality. From the earliest quotations of the Bible God defines Himself as eternal, and pre-existent before time and the universe ever came into being. There wasn't time before the universe came into being - that is one truth where astrophysicists and theologians can agree on. However, only theologians have been saying it for millennia. Astrophysicists are the new kids on the block and have come to the same conclusion. The universe was created ex-nihlo (from nothing).

• Ex nihilo - Wikipedia

Despite their admission that the universe was created ex-nihlo those trying to explain things before there was an actual physical universe, or time itself, is nothing more than mere speculation. They are outside the box so to speak before they do not have a physical model by which to gain empirical evidence. They are also outside the scientific method, which has served us so well. Most of us love science so much, however, that reputable scientists still attempt to invent abstractions on what may have happened before there was a was. If one is perhaps stuck on atheism anything may be plausible. You can just about come up with any explanation as to a cause, but if one is a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim they already know the only good reasonable explanation is God made the universe. BTW the idea of a static eternal and infinite universe is quite dead. It used to be the prevailing theory 70 or so years ago but the empirical evidence overthrew it. I mean no offense to those who hold to Eastern religion belief systems but that happens to be the truth.

• What Came Before the Big Bang? | DiscoverMagazine.com

Your postulate is somewhat analogous to saying operations on the infinite must be able to be defined by the operations governing real numbers. That is not true for mathematics and is not true for the eternal vs time domain existence. Although they are not we can make some inferences in Mathematics, just as we can make inferences about our eternal God. Time is a physical property but we know God is eternal. God has dominion over space/time since He is its first cause. All physical things are subject to physical entropy and pass away but what is eternal is not subject to entropy. Therefore He was, is, and always will be. He proclaimed this Himself when He told Moses to tell the people, "I Am".

• Exodus 3:13-14

I believe it is therefore error to assume we can define the eternal from the temporal rules which God has integrated into the physical universe. While it is true the heavens and the earth are a testament to His Glory the heavens do so imperfectly. The universe is dependent on the eternal Creator and not the other way around. We pray, 'Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven' eternal with the knowledge that this only happens at the fulfillment of time when Christ comes to physically rule, this after the Gospel is being proclaimed to all people. It is then that the earth will be entirely transformed by Christ rule that it may indeed reflect the eternal Kingdom from whence He came. It is also an error to assume that man can define God for it is the other way around; God has defined whom humankind shall be, our universal purpose for us to image who He is to all creation. If we are to truly reflect His love, kindness, mercy and goodness then we must necessarily be in submission to His will and His thoughts, Anything less usurps God's design and puts the will of His creatures (mankind) above the will of the Creator.

• Genesis 1:26-27
• Isaiah 55:9

How could I reconcile the physical and self-evident metaphysical truths which have been given to me, with the biblical one?

You don’t elaborate on exactly what those self-evident metaphysical truths are, nor why you find them irreconcilable. We're left to guess on exactly what those self-evident truths might be. An articulate response would necessarily have to be vectored from a different perspective of reasoning depending on what you believe these self-evident truths to be. (e.g. If it were scientific truth I might start by telling you there are many great scientists who went before us, some actually the fathers of that particular science, had a very deep and satisfying faith. They had no trouble reconciling the physical world they analyzed with the God of the Bible. Perhaps, if you were referring to philosophical truths, I would tell you that there are many conflicting perspectives as to what “the truth” actually is. I might also remind you that Pilate asked Jesus this same question.

• John 18:36-38

Jesus, did not give Pilate a verbal answer. I would suggest, however, that the Truth was staring right back into Pilate’s eyes.

Jesus also said this:

• John 14:6.

One has three choices to decide by that response: Either Jesus was a liar, a lunatic, or He was who He said He was. I came to the conclusion long ago that He definitely was who He said He was!

If we understand God to be the absolute truth, shouldn't he undertake a form so much more beautiful and grand than anything we could possibly perceive?

God, is a relational being. God is Love. His Word, the Son of God, took on the form of a human being in order to relationally connect to us - “Emmanuel – God with us”. He took on the form of man to redeem mankind. The first man from the earth fell and we all fell. The 2nd man from heaven rose and through Him we too shall rise. In my estimation Jesus was beautiful, is beautiful, and always will be beautiful. He will certainly return in glory but the Bible says when that happens many will cry out for the rocks to fall upon them. God doesn’t necessarily want an intellectual relationship with His creation, although wisdom does come to those who are His. God is looking for a heart relationship – a relationship of love. It seems science does not have an answer for the question of love. What is Love? How is Love proved? What color is it? What does it taste like? It has no mass, physical quality that we can see with our eyes, but surely we can sense it all around us by our spiritual eyes but some remain blind to it. I see Love in everything Jesus did, especially in the cross.

Some might ask, “Why did He leave us then? Jesus answered that question too.

• John 14:15-20

Again our choice is to perceive Him as either liar, lunatic, or the Living Truth. Love does not coerce. Love is a choice and I believe Jesus made a choice to die for our sins because He is the highest love we have ever seen. He didn’t leave us as orphans though. He indwells us by His Holy Spirit. What did He tell us to do? He told us to spread His message of His dying love for humanity. Where? To the ends of the earth. Is the Holy Spirit doing that? Yes, the Gospel has progressed to the ends of the earth and the Great Commission shall be finished. What happens when it is done?

• Romans 10:16-18
• Matthew 24:14

Why a simple message? Because it is through this message we, who truly receive it, are transformed. We see the same operational evidence in nature. Think of how cells reproduce through DNA, RNA messaging.

The message of the Gospel is a Divine message and its proof is in those who obey the Gospel; those who have begun to love and understand God’s love for humanity and either go, near and far, or back goers. As we are transformed we live more and more for Christ alone and many times go as messengers to the people that hate Christ. Some we encounter would kill us just because of mere association with Him and of course the message. However, we go on faith because we know we were once ignorant of Christ and His message and know the enemies of Christ are ignorant of exactly who Christ is. We go because we also “know” we are not alone but are completely aware the living and breathing Christ is within us. He has transformed us to be His hands, feet, and mouthpiece (namely any part of His Body, to save a dying world with His message of transformation. The message, however, must be transmitted as He transmitted it to His Apostles who faithfully transmitted it to us. In a sense think of it as RNA messenger who transmit the correct sequences in order to build cells. If we transmit the wrong sequences and values then we have the base for a mutant or cancer cell. So it has to be an apostolic faith. We, the generations that have followed apostolic teaching, must necessarily believe through their testimony just as Jesus stated ( John 17:20 ). This is what Jesus prayed for and this is how the gates of hell, throughout all time will never prevail or shut down the Gospel of Grace. It will faithfully be delivered to all people groups. We are in a sense on mission with Christ to bring this about.

• Matthew 28:18-20

The Great commission shall be completed and when it does Christ will return for all who have obeyed the Gospel.

• Matthew 24:14

So we are trading a dying human nature within ourselves for the nature of Christ that “we know: is dwelling in our hearts. We do not need an intellectual argument to convince them of His living presence from within but can make one if we need to. The most important aspect of our faith, however, is true and loving relationship with the Divinity, which over time begins to emanates within their entire being. This varies from Christian to Christian but we are all one body in Christ who is every Christian's true reason for living. Blessings necessarily abound, especially with regard to people but we seek His righteousness and all things follow from God. He therefor remains our highest love - the love of loves in our lives. We have the living waters that refresh us day by day within our hearts. No one can take that from us. We know we have Christ and He has us. I've been trying to make it clear as I can that we need to fall in love with Jesus.
God does not require us to be intellectuals but only to turn from our sin and our selfish pursuits back to God in recognition of His Love for us. I believe His love for us is clearly seen when He dearly paid our entire debt, taking upon Himself the sin of the world.

• 2 Corinthians 5:21

We love Him and show that love by obeying His Gospel – the heart of His love toward us. We’re simply trading in our ashes for beauty!

• Isaiah 61:1-3

These are the words Jesus began His ministry with:

• Luke 4:18

So I do conclude that God has already shown us His beauty. A young child can apprehend the Gospel, an alzheimer's patient can apprehend it, those stuck in a nursing home can apprehend it, the boy with downs syndrome can apprehend it, the stroke victim can apprehend it, the poor, the refugee, the rich man, as well as those gifted with great physical or cognitive abilities. Jesus came for sinners of all stripes and told us to preach the story of God's love to all but we would do well to remember that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

• James 4:6

This hunger which is in me to seek out this objective truth, is the very thing that gives me hope in its existence. If a man is dying of thirst, that must mean water exists, right? The same goes for hunger, and hopefully even God.

Michael, that is such an impressive and profound truth! I would say that you are not far from the Kingdom of God and it is a tremendous statement for anyone seeking the Kingdom.

• Matthew 5:6

Other statements you make would also convince me of that but found your statement above to have profound insight.

• Jeremiah 2:13
• Jeremiah 17:13
• Revelation 7:17
• John 4:12-18
• John 6:35
• John 7:38-39
• John 14:16-18
• John 3:3-10
• 1 Peter 1:22-25

May God bless you and your family,
In Christ, Pat

 

[SkyWriting]

Allow me to preface this post with a forewarning to all, that this post is indeed going to be rather lengthy. However, through my personal experience I can only hope that this information sparks serious and intense discussion in regards to faith as it relates to wholly the absolute truth and nothing but the absolute truth. With that being said, allow me to offer you some background. I have always been a person who viewed the world in a not-so-strict code of interralation between two or more potentially causally linked entities. I am a person who likes to break down the world into its most essential and grounded parts. Therefore, it would seem only natural that I would find satisfaction in pursuing the various sciences. Now, at some stage of "life", I made a full-hearted and earnest commitment to the doctrinal beliefs I held as a
Christian. But unfortunately that meant that I had to create a paradigm in which the full truths of Christ and his message, as well as the truths given to us by the visible and natural world can coexist. Such an attempt yielded very little in the way of a coherent worldview. How could I reconcile the physical and self-evident metaphysical truths which have been given to me, with the biblical one? And so I was left, scouring through various sources, reading and rereading different parts of the Bible, with a singular hope that remained. If perhaps, I could understand the will and nature of God himself, then just maybe I would be able to see the natural and supernatural come together in a way I would've never thought of. I regret to say, that such a venture also yielded little in the way of results; too many inconsistencies, contradictions, and logical gaps have remained. Throughout this all, one thought remained in my mind. "How cruel is it for a person like me, to be left with substantial doubt, only after trying to seek after the very entity which I have put my faith in!". You see, I have considered myself a devout and earnest Christian for my entire life. I am fully aware of the message of Christ, his dying salvation, and his transcendental divinity. However, what is not so plainly visible to me are the grounds on which I should put my faith in him. Experience is one thing, it may convince some, but not necessarily others. "Feeling" God's presence i have felt, is an unworthy justification for faith. I have "felt" such a thing that could only be described as God's love during earnest prayer. Plenty of things can generate such a feeling; an improper balance of hormones, the stimulus by an electric shock, or even the steak you had for dinner. It could very well be the case that such an experience is deep and meaningful for a multitude of people, but not necessarily for me. If we understand God to be the absolute truth, shouldn't he undertake a form so much more beautiful and grand than anything we could possibly perceive? But if we couldn't perceive him that would cast doubt once more into the very existence of such an entity; a potential paradox. While I may not yet understand exactly why other people put their faith in Christ, I understand what drives me to try to seek him daily. Personally, I have tried to satisfy myself by the pleasures that the things of this world bring, by the things in which other people find enjoyment. Such a thing, fails to work for me, and I believe to a larger extent, anyone who has not found the absolute truth. For you see, we as humans constantly grapple with this thing called life, and with its daily struggles. Things we put our faith in all must come to an end. The sun, the Earth, and even the universe must come to an end. These vast and ever immutable entities still cannot give us true satisfaction. No, we need to find absolute truth, an absolute truth that gives us hope, something to live for. Further, one can make out that such a truth should be personal, as what good is this truth if it fills no void within ourselves. This hunger which is in me to seek out this objective truth , is the very thing that gives me hope in its existence. If a man is dying of thirst, that must mean water exists, right? The same goes for hunger, and hopefully even God. The point is, I know that there is some absolute truth out there, there must necessarily be. The very thing from which everything else follows, must necessarily exist based upon the laws of causality, and what we know about the origins of the universe. I pray everyday for the grandest being of all to make himself personally known to me, regardless of evidence, in a way that I can be sure the message is coming from outside of myself. Nothing outside this truth will fulfill me, absolutely nothing.

Just follow the process of "Answered Prayer" in my signature file below.
It's very simple, but difficult to accomplish. Many preachers have not
experienced answered prayer. It's easy, but hard.