impediments to the priesthood?

[Oblio]

If declared in an EC, then they apply to all, through the pastoral guidance and application of a Bishop. Otherwise you are just playing Protestant legalism.

 

[icxn]

The proof of authenticity of the spiritual condition of a father confessor is, that while he is very strict with himself, he is very lenient with others and does not use the canons of the Church like cannons against them. - Elder Paisius of the Holy Mountain (+July 12, 1994)

 

[Greg the byzantine]

I wish I could find the rep button in this mess, but ICXN you always have a quote for every situation, and they are always excellent.

 

[repentant]

That it a very good quote, but does not apply here. The meaning of that is more for other canons such as exxcommunication or punishment. But one that has to do with the clergy, the shepards of the people is a tottally different story. Remember a Priest is in authority of countless souls, and provides them guidance. For this reason purity is wanted by the Church.

Fact is, it's a Canon, it applies to all jurisdictions. It was Ecumenically done, that's it. I still haven't seen anyone prove that EC canons are not valid for all..

 

[Akathist]

That it a very good quote, but does not apply here. The meaning of that is more for other canons such as exxcommunication or punishment. But one that has to do with the clergy, the shepards of the people is a tottally different story. Remember a Priest is in authority of countless souls, and provides them guidance. For this reason purity is wanted by the Church.

Fact is, it's a Canon, it applies to all jurisdictions. It was Ecumenically done, that's it. I still haven't seen anyone prove that EC canons are not valid for all..

Repentant, your stance in this thread reminds me of the time when you insisted that we are not allowed to say the words: "Memory Eternal" to about a nonOrthodox family member of an Orthodox TAW member.

Do you remember how you and I went back and forth with each other about that?

I am willing to take you on again. You are not GOD you are not a Bishop and your personal interpretation of canons are not relevant to me. Neither by the way is the interpretation of your Spiritual Father's.

We are pastored by individual Spiritual Father's who are under the authority of various Bishops. None of which have more authority than someone else.

I personally believe that your version of Orthodoxy is one I would want no part of! I would leave that Church so fast the door would not be able to hit me anywhere in back as I left! I love the ministering quality of the Church as I know it. Where situations are examined on an individual basis and the legalism that was very spiritually abusive that I found in Protestantism not only does not exist but is frowned on deeply.

 

[Akathist]

On to another interesting topic (hoping to break away from the mood of the post above...)

I read on another board a post that said that Priest's are not allowed to be "fisherman". It had me laughing so hard I nearly lost one of my lungs coughing!

There are some really weird ideas out there about things but that was the funniest one.

My Priest has been camping with his family for nearly two weeks and when he returned he was able to see my pm about the "fisherman" topic. He told me that was an "Urban Myth".

I jokenly told him that I hoped he didn't go fishing while camping! ("Is outrage!")

 

[Canadian75]

I thought I escaped this legalistic tripe when I left the Roman Church.

Me as well. However, I left the catechumenate because of some legalistic issues in the EOC. This discussion has reminded me of some things I had difficulty with accepting from the EOC. I have no hard feelings towards the Orthodox Church, but I had to accept that I had fundamental disagreements with it.


Personally, I found that if someone had commited sins in the past and repented of it and reformed their lives, they still could be forbidden from the priesthood. This to me seems incompatible with what I understood as forgiveness. Though a sin is 'forgiven' it is never 'forgotten' and one is forever labelled a "fornicator", "adulterer", "murderer", etc. etc. (maybe not publically, but at least in the eyes of the church) As one person pointed out: no one is worthy of priesthood. However, it seems that one still has to be "the best of the worst". It does not seem to matter what kind of man you are now, but rather what your track record consists of.

Again, I respect that this is the rule of the EOC and I won't say it is right or wrong. Just that I cannot personally accept it.


Peace.

 

[Oblio]

Personally, I found that if someone had commited sins in the past and repented of it and reformed their lives, they still could be forbidden from the priesthood.

I think you will find, that if by in the past we mean prior to being received into the Orthodox Church, that this is not always the case.

 

[Nickolai]

On to another interesting topic (hoping to break away from the mood of the post above...)

I read on another board a post that said that Priest's are not allowed to be "fisherman". It had me laughing so hard I nearly lost one of my lungs coughing!

There are some really weird ideas out there about things but that was the funniest one.

My Priest has been camping with his family for nearly two weeks and when he returned he was able to see my pm about the "fisherman" topic. He told me that was an "Urban Myth".

I jokenly told him that I hoped he didn't go fishing while camping! ("Is outrage!")

It's against canon law for ANY member of the clergy to take the life of any living thing, unless absolutly neccesary. Alaskan clergy get a dispensation because some of them wouldn't be able to eat if they didn't fish and hunt. But a lot of clergy ignore this canon as it's not a major one.

Reader Nikolai

 

[Michael G]

If declared in an EC, then they apply to all, through the pastoral guidance and application of a Bishop. Otherwise you are just playing Protestant legalism.

You are right.

 

[Nickolai]

That it a very good quote, but does not apply here. The meaning of that is more for other canons such as exxcommunication or punishment. But one that has to do with the clergy, the shepards of the people is a tottally different story. Remember a Priest is in authority of countless souls, and provides them guidance. For this reason purity is wanted by the Church.

Fact is, it's a Canon, it applies to all jurisdictions. It was Ecumenically done, that's it. I still haven't seen anyone prove that EC canons are not valid for all..

In regards to purity in the clergy, Saint Luke of Simferopol used to suspend clergy for weeks at a time for just smoking a cigarette.

Repentant is completly correct in stating what that canons decided ecumenicaly don't just apply to some, they apply to all, but Oblio is also right in the sense that an ukase from one local church is not binding on the rest. The problem here is that a canon and an ukase are not the same thing. and the impediment of fornication is a canon binding on ALL local churches.

But in the end, the Bishop is the ultimate decision maker in matters of application of canons. And the whole synod of Bishops of a local church has to approve any ordinations for Deacon or Priest anyway. This matter is not really our concern, If the synod decides to ordain a repentant fornicator, then what concern is it of ours? are so holy as to judge them? I know I'm not.

Reader Nikolai

 

[Orthocat]

No fishing huh? hmmm. I really like fish.

Monks are not allowed to swim.
I know the reasoning but don't quite understand it.

 

[Michael G]

Oblio,

Last time I checked I was not applying these canons to anyone. I am merely stating a point that is within the Church, which by the way was given to me by my Spiritual Father who happens to be a Priest Monk. It is like saying, in general, you should not recieve Communion without first confessing, and to some degree having a kanona or prayer rule or something like that. This is a Canon. The Church says this. So how come when people on here make this statement it is not seen as pontificating? Canons are canons and rules are rules. You don't need to pontificate to state a rule or canon within the Church. And until someone on here can show me where the Canons don't apply to various jurisdictions, I am done with this discussion.

The fact that a person is a priest-monk does not automatically mean what they say is canonically accurate. I know of a priest-monk in the Pittsburgh area who is very innacurate when applying canons to certain areas, especially that of iconography. I was forced to call the two bishops who he was citing as his sources to verify that this priest-monk was infact inaccurate in what he was telling me. Only Bishops are authorized to make canonical decisions.

 

[Nickolai]

...I know of a priest-monk in the Pittsburgh area who is very innacurate when applying canons to certain areas, especially that of iconography. I was forced to call the two bishops who he was citing as his sources to verify that this priest-monk was infact inaccurate in what he was telling me....

I think I know him.

 

[Michael G]

I think I know him.

God bless him, I think he is a good priest. He definitely has a good heart and a deep zeal for the church. I point this out to show repentant that just because a person is a hieromonk doesn't make them infallible in their reading of canons.

 

[Akathist]

It's against canon law for ANY member of the clergy to take the life of any living thing, unless absolutly neccesary. Alaskan clergy get a dispensation because some of them wouldn't be able to eat if they didn't fish and hunt. But a lot of clergy ignore this canon as it's not a major one.

Reader Nikolai

I do understand this. My Priest probably didn't fish while camping. And I know that he does not kill even a rodent in his home. (But will have a cat that he hopes will do the job for him.)

When we had a bat in the church there was a great deal of effort made to pursuade it to leave without killing it. They were successful but it took a couple weeks and found me under a table more than once.

 

[gzt]

Canadian - or a child molestor...

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing fornication to child molestation, but I just happen to think that most people would agree that that's a sin that can be forgiven, but not forgotten and would not want to ordain a man who had ever done such a thing. Is that legalism?

 

[Michael G]

I do understand this. My Priest probably didn't fish while camping. And I know that he does not kill even a rodent in his home. (But will have a cat that he hopes will do the job for him.)

Unlike the monk at St. Vincent Archabbey who carried a small pistol to shoot rabbits who ventured into his English garden...

 

[Akathist]

Unlike the monk at St. Vincent Archabbey who carried a small pistol to shoot rabbits who ventured into his English garden...

hmmmm I wonder who he gave the rabbit to to eat...
(sorry but I love rabbit meat.)

 

[Greg the byzantine]

hmmmm I wonder who he gave the rabbit to to eat...
(sorry but I love rabbit meat.)

I'd gladly take the rabbit off his hands. Yiayia Makes excellent Rabbit Stifado, cooked with vinegar and onions