impeachment process for Bush and Cheney started

irateional · Aug 16, 2007

Your both being ridiculous.

Sorry. It's true. Gwenyfur, you don't need to go extrapolating the truth. If I was a kid, and there was a firefight, I'd hide behind the closest adult too.

Zilam, the US isn't the only source of evil, and it isn't any more or less of a terrorist than any other nation at war.

I don't see why both sides always want to paint war as one thing or another.

Either it's good. Or it's wrong.

When in reality, it's amoral. Good things can come of war (the liberation of the Jews for example), and horrible things can too (Nagasaki and Hiroshima for example). If we can understand that war is a terrible, horrible AND sometimes necessary event, we'd probably all be in a better state. As humans and as countries. War should always be a last resort, because of how horrible it is. I feel sorry for anyone caught up in it, solidiers, enemies, and civilians.

Gwenyfur · Aug 16, 2007

More atrocities by our troops:

Soldiers force Iraqis to see saw until they talk:

Iraqi child bites GI in self defense after obvious torture:

GI falls asleep on duty using Iraqi child as body armor:
(read the article)

GI overheard saying "Talk or I'll tickle you until you pee!"

Soldier attempts to eat Iraqi child!

Proof of forced child labor for Iraqi children:

Soldier caught at "tickle torture" to extract intelligence:

GI forced child to hang by fingertips:

Iraqi people seemingly grateful for the torture at the hands of American GI's:

And for this one....no comment, as even you should be able to see the torment of this GI and the high price if the insurgency wins....

Gwenyfur · Aug 16, 2007

As a Marine and a veteran, I'm going to take issue with anyone who tries to paint my brothers and sisters as evil monsters. I know all to well the evils of war...

For someone who's never put on a uniform, picked up a weapon and fought for anything other than his own opinion to degrade the men and women who have, is the height of hypocrisy.

irateional · Aug 16, 2007

Gwenyfur said:
As a Marine and a veteran, I'm going to take issue with anyone who tries to paint my brothers and sisters as evil monsters. I know all to well the evils of war...

For someone who's never put on a uniform, picked up a weapon and fought for anything other than his own opinion to degrade the men and women who have, is the height of hypocrisy.

I understand the first, but I only agree in partial with the second.

Afterall, the bosses of the military is Congress, whom for the most part, are made up of non-military personell. I do get what you're saying. Id on't like personally insulting either side, US Marines or Insurgents. I think it's kind of wrong on a level.

Touma · Aug 16, 2007

Gwenyfur said:
As a Marine and a veteran, I'm going to take issue with anyone who tries to paint my brothers and sisters as evil monsters. I know all to well the evils of war...

For someone who's never put on a uniform, picked up a weapon and fought for anything other than his own opinion to degrade the men and women who have, is the height of hypocrisy.

And when you join the military you give up your god given free will, and become state property and have to do what they tell you. None of the early christians apostles were in the military, and they died violently without a fight. That shows me that as a christian we are to be people of peace, not of government run war machines. It is a tool of death 99% of time. Sure you can post happy pics, but i can post 100 times the amount of devastating pictures.

irateional · Aug 16, 2007

Zilam said:
And when you join the military you give up your god given free will, and become state property and have to do what they tell you. None of the early christians apostles were in the military, and they died violently without a fight. That shows me that as a christian we are to be people of peace, not of government run war machines. It is a tool of death 99% of time. Sure you can post happy pics, but i can post 100 times the amount of devastating pictures.

Barring this, Jesus said to the Roman Centurions that visited him in essence this "Do your duty, and don't be corrupt." Seems pretty simple. Once again, War is amoral. Neither good nor bad, but definitely causing good and evil.

Touma · Aug 16, 2007

irateional said:
Barring this, Jesus said to the Roman Centurions that visited him in essence this "Do your duty, and don't be corrupt." Seems pretty simple. Once again, War is amoral. Neither good nor bad, but definitely causing good and evil.

Amoral? How so? Death and destruction vs peace and prosperity? Hmmm Seems like i can tell what wars does. The only people that like wars, are those that win them.

irateional · Aug 16, 2007

Zilam said:
Amoral? How so? Death and destruction vs peace and prosperity? Hmmm Seems like i can tell what wars does. The only people that like wars, are those that win them.

I'd argue that in some cases, war is an unavoidable state. Afterall, sometimes, you can be the nicest country in the world (Poland) and still get invaded.

I simply see that it's something to be avoided as much as possible. I'd much rather it not exist though.

jad123 · Aug 16, 2007

KEPLER said:
There's an old saying: "If you're not liberal when you're young, you don't have a heart. If you're not conservative when you're old, you don't have a brain."

Hahahaha. How true those statements are. The ones on this thread condemning the US are barley out of high school, still live with mommy, and probably haven't even visited Canada never mind the Mid-East. I would love to hear from someone on the anti-US side who has actually been anywhere in the mid-east and spoken to the people there and hear first hand what they actually think of the US.

BlessEwe · Aug 16, 2007

jad123 said:
Anyway, would mind giving me an example where the US is purposely killing innocent people right now.

what a statement in any or all wars this is going to happen. This is why war is so horrible.
Of coarse this is not the fault of men/women fighting they are doing what they are told to do.

what the saddest part of it is after these people fight and live in the most horrific conditions they are pushed aside without enough help to recover from what they did/saw while in combat.

jad123 · Aug 16, 2007

BlessEwe said:
what a statement in any or all wars this is going to happen. This is why war is so horrible.
Of coarse this is not the fault of men/women fighting they are doing what they are told to do.

what the saddest part of it is after these people fight and live in the most horrific conditions they are pushed aside without enough help to recover from what they did/saw while in combat.

yes innocents will die but the US is not going out and purposely hunting down innocent people to kill as others have implied here.

Gwenyfur · Aug 16, 2007

irateional said:
I understand the first, but I only agree in partial with the second.

Afterall, the bosses of the military is Congress, whom for the most part, are made up of non-military personell. I do get what you're saying. Id on't like personally insulting either side, US Marines or Insurgents. I think it's kind of wrong on a level.

You'd be suprised how many congressional members have put on a uniform...

with the only true disgrace right now being Murtha...he's one of a handful I would actually call an "ex" Marine...

Gwenyfur · Aug 16, 2007

Zilam said:
And when you join the military you give up your god given free will, and become state property and have to do what they tell you. None of the early christians apostles were in the military, and they died violently without a fight. That shows me that as a christian we are to be people of peace, not of government run war machines. It is a tool of death 99% of time. Sure you can post happy pics, but i can post 100 times the amount of devastating pictures.

You must have forgotten the Centurion...

Y'shua even commended him, didn't tell him to get out of hte military either...

Matthew8:9-11 KJV said:
9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Gwenyfur · Aug 16, 2007

Zilam said:
Amoral? How so? Death and destruction vs peace and prosperity? Hmmm Seems like i can tell what wars does. The only people that like wars, are those that win them.

That's incredibly naive.

Let me as you this...since you seem to know everything there is to know about war, it's reasons and yes, sometimes even it's neccessity...

What is the greater evil...
To commit crimes against humanity, rape, kill, mame, murder, even women and children with impunity...

or

To sit idly by and let it happen?

Gwenyfur · Aug 16, 2007

BlessEwe said:
what a statement in any or all wars this is going to happen. This is why war is so horrible.
Of coarse this is not the fault of men/women fighting they are doing what they are told to do.

what the saddest part of it is after these people fight and live in the most horrific conditions they are pushed aside without enough help to recover from what they did/saw while in combat.

We're working on that...and thankfully many non profits are realizing the VA tends to drop the ball on it's veterans...

So counselling and help with PTSD is becoming more prevelent, praise G-d!

The military itself has also realized this and when the men come back stateside, they get a 72 hour leave, then return to their base for 7 days for debriefing and counselling...it's still a huge adjustment ... but steps are finally being taken to help with that transition.

KEPLER · Aug 16, 2007

Zilam said:
Amoral? How so? Death and destruction vs peace and prosperity? Hmmm Seems like i can tell what wars does. The only people that like wars, are those that win them.

Gwenyfur said:
What is the greater evil...
To commit crimes against humanity, rape, kill, mame, murder, even women and children with impunity...

or

To sit idly by and let it happen?

Neville Chamberlain behaved in precisely the way you are advocating, Zilam. He sat idly by. Because of his inaction, nearly 50 million people died.

Touma · Aug 16, 2007

KEPLER said:
Neville Chamberlain behaved in precisely the way you are advocating, Zilam. He sat idly by. Because of his inaction, nearly 50 million people died.

And we have a Godwin! When in doubt point to all things Nazi. Its not like himself could have actually flown to every Nazi death camp and set free the people. Heck, even if he would have started war with Hitler, it would have been disastrous to the British.

As for everyone talking about the centurion. You say because Jesus didn't speak out against his role in the military, then is mustn't be bad. Might we say the same thing about slavery then? Jesus healed the centurion's slave, but never condemned the system of slavery, therefore, we must assume that Jesus thought slavery was o.k.

Touma · Aug 16, 2007

More on the centurion(from a nice little website I have bookmarked):

What I take from this passage in the Gospel of Luke is a message of God's incredible graciousness. The centurion being a centurion doesn't really factor into this whole situation. In fact, if the witness of the Jewish elders can be taken at face value, then as military leaders from a pagan government oppressing the Chosen People go, this one isn't all that bad. He sounds like he is far more sympathetic towards the Hebrew plight than one would expect. One might even go so far as to call him a sympathizer.
What is a factor here is the centurion's faith in Jesus as the Messenger from God. Drawing the only comparisons which his military-bred mind can draw, the centurion expresses his simple faith that whatever Jesus may be, He can heal His slave. Amazed by this simple, almost child-like faith, Jesus heals the slave, mentioning neither militarism nor slavery.
Ultimately, the whole situation is less about the centurion than it is a lesson for us. This is the extravagance of God's grace: that even a slave-owning soldier from an oppressive and occupying military superpower can know God's grace. This passage still holds an important meaning for advocates of nonviolence, though it is not the great proof for violence that some use it for. Instead it is a message that God's love and grace is extravagant and big enough for all people, even those we oppose. How easy would it have been for Jesus and the Hebrews to tell the centurion to shove off because he's their oppressor. Yet they did not... God's grace is for all people, even our enemies.
But how can we finally confirm that this was His intent and not actually a standard ambivilance towards solidery? Prior to this event, John the Baptist actually does interact with soldiers who come to him asking specifically what they should do. John's response is related in Luke 3:14: And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." If we can presume enough to suggest that John's and Jesus' teachings were in coherence, then it stands that yes, Jesus did not intend soldiers to continue on in soldiery.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Aug 16, 2007

Zilam said:
More on the centurion(from a nice little website I have bookmarked):

What I take from this passage in the Gospel of Luke is a message of God's incredible graciousness. The centurion being a centurion doesn't really factor into this whole situation. In fact, if the witness of the Jewish elders can be taken at face value, then as military leaders from a pagan government oppressing the Chosen People go, this one isn't all that bad. He sounds like he is far more sympathetic towards the Hebrew plight than one would expect. One might even go so far as to call him a sympathizer.
What is a factor here is the centurion's faith in Jesus as the Messenger from God. Drawing the only comparisons which his military-bred mind can draw, the centurion expresses his simple faith that whatever Jesus may be, He can heal His slave. Amazed by this simple, almost child-like faith, Jesus heals the slave, mentioning neither militarism nor slavery.
Ultimately, the whole situation is less about the centurion than it is a lesson for us. This is the extravagance of God's grace: that even a slave-owning soldier from an oppressive and occupying military superpower can know God's grace. This passage still holds an important meaning for advocates of nonviolence, though it is not the great proof for violence that some use it for. Instead it is a message that God's love and grace is extravagant and big enough for all people, even those we oppose. How easy would it have been for Jesus and the Hebrews to tell the centurion to shove off because he's their oppressor. Yet they did not... God's grace is for all people, even our enemies.
But how can we finally confirm that this was His intent and not actually a standard ambivilance towards solidery? Prior to this event, John the Baptist actually does interact with soldiers who come to him asking specifically what they should do. John's response is related in Luke 3:14: And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." If we can presume enough to suggest that John's and Jesus' teachings were in coherence, then it stands that yes, Jesus did not intend soldiers to continue on in soldiery.

Wow, way to quote from the King James...

The actual wording is: Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.

KEPLER · Aug 16, 2007

Zilam said:
And we have a Godwin! When in doubt point to all things Nazi. Its not like himself could have actually flown to every Nazi death camp and set free the people. Heck, even if he would have started war with Hitler, it would have been disastrous to the British.

As for everyone talking about the centurion. You say because Jesus didn't speak out against his role in the military, then is mustn't be bad. Might we say the same thing about slavery then? Jesus healed the centurion's slave, but never condemned the system of slavery, therefore, we must assume that Jesus thought slavery was o.k.

Pshaw!

Stricte dicta, I did not violate Godwin's law: the topic was already on war, and Hitler is a natural topic within such a conversation. Godwin's Law is only invoked when conversations completely unrelated to war/Germany/atrocities are deliberately turned to Hitler via a red herring.

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