Immortal soul a lie?

[Fireinfolding]

Well, I can support my position, but I haven't yet seen Gary even state his. (I can't "debate" a non-position, so we'll have to wait to see if he answers the question that he asked of us.... or did he and I missed it? )

Not sure I'm up for a "debate" though.... but wouldn't mind a civil conversation about it. But would have to be allowed to quote scripture.

Well, from hanging out in the other place for such a long time I betcha I can guess his position

I love the scriptures, I agree

 

[sawdust]

Do you actually believe that a loving God would eternally torment his children?

Picture this, you have a son, he is destroying your household. If you don't stop him, he will eventually bring it down.

What are you going to do? You could kill him(which for any parent to do would be hard enough) or you could rig his hand above a flame and leave him screaming in pain and agony for the rest of eternity.

If you do not get rid of him somehow he will kill your other children whom love you very much, he hates you. Are you just going to get rid of his existence completely? Or are you going to sadistically torture him for all time?

Remember we are made in God's image, what you would be willing to do (out of love) and what He would be willing to do are similar.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. Is.55:8

Until we know the Lord we do not even know what love is. "God is love."

who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2:4

The Lord wants all men to know the truth. Not all men want to know the truth so the Lord gives them what they want.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Jn.3:19

For those who do end up in the lake of fire it is their own evil that torments them. The Lord tortures no-one. He also basis the verdict on all the facts regarding a person not just what we may or may not see and He certainly doen't base it on how He (or we) might feel about the situation. Emotion has no part in thinking. Emotion is designed to respond to sound thinking, thinking based on truth (Thy word is truth Jn.17:17) given by grace.

Your argument is humanly understandable, but that is all it is, human understanding.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; Prov.3:5

peace

 

[sawdust]

I don't know what your trying to do, but if you take the time to go back and read through my posts, I have never said they both have to occur at the same time.

What I am saying is that when we die, we don't exist, except for in God's memory, there is no more we, or I, or you. We are not aware of anything at all.

For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all. ECCLESIASTES 9:5

"Let us all eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die".

Go back and read chapter nine in context. You are taking one verse out of context to support an eternal truth?

Solomon was a man who, even though a believer, had managed to get more things wrong in his life than right. He had 1000 women in his life ... now that's a man in torment.

The book of Ecclesiastes is like looking through a window into the soul of a disobedient believer. The Lord wanted it all recorded for us so that we learn to start where Solomon finishes and not take on board all the stuff in between.

Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecc.12:13

At the end of his life Solomon finally realised what his father had known all his life. To those who fear God and keep His commandments....

Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever. Ps.23:6

peace

 

[jesusfreak3786]

No, I'm saying they are not the same thing. They've been interpreted wrongly in this manner. You will not find the word "hell" in the bible, but it's used for everyone of these words, gehenna, hades, tartaros. It was a bad judgement call. YOu'll have to go to the strong's concordance to figure out which one the author was speaking of. With lazarus, Jesus said he was in Hades, which is the abode of the dead, the waiting place for judgment day.

The New World Translation has them all correctly translated.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. Is.55:8

Until we know the Lord we do not even know what love is. "God is love."

who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2:4

The Lord wants all men to know the truth. Not all men want to know the truth so the Lord gives them what they want.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Jn.3:19

For those who do end up in the lake of fire it is their own evil that torments them. The Lord tortures no-one. He also basis the verdict on all the facts regarding a person not just what we may or may not see and He certainly doen't base it on how He (or we) might feel about the situation. Emotion has no part in thinking. Emotion is designed to respond to sound thinking, thinking based on truth (Thy word is truth Jn.17:17) given by grace.

Your argument is humanly understandable, but that is all it is, human understanding.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; Prov.3:5

peace

Funny, you tell me I am basing my belief on human understanding, yet your answer to me is this. Where in the bible does it state this, I haven't found it. ( For those who do end up in the lake of fire it is their own evil that torments them.)

 

[jesusfreak3786]

SAWDUST

I have two questions for you. If we really don't die...completely then what need is there for a resurrection?

And if you are eternally alive in "hell" the bible is made to be a liar.
And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na MATTHEW 10:28

 

[sawdust]

Thanks for that...

Hell, Hades, Sheol all mean the same thing... the grave.

But that is not the question I asked. I want to know where all the so called immortal souls of the dead are right now.

I seem to be having a hard time getting a straight answer to this simple question... Why?

Unbelievers go down to the grave and wait there until the resuurection of the body which, for them, will be at the Great Throne judgement. They wait in that part of the grave known as Torments which is where the Rich man (from the parable is).

Believers go to be with the Lord and wait there for the resurrection of the body. Those who died prior to the resurrection of Christ waited in the grave in the place known as Paradise. When Christ rose, he went down and gathered those souls and ascended with them as captives. (ie they had been captives to death)

Does that help?

peace

 

[mystery4]

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. Is.55:8

Until we know the Lord we do not even know what love is. "God is love."

who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2:4

The Lord wants all men to know the truth. Not all men want to know the truth so the Lord gives them what they want.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Jn.3:19

For those who do end up in the lake of fire it is their own evil that torments them. The Lord tortures no-one. He also basis the verdict on all the facts regarding a person not just what we may or may not see and He certainly doen't base it on how He (or we) might feel about the situation. Emotion has no part in thinking. Emotion is designed to respond to sound thinking, thinking based on truth (Thy word is truth Jn.17:17) given by grace.

Your argument is humanly understandable, but that is all it is, human understanding.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; Prov.3:5

peace

Are you asking people in this instance to trust God in blind faith?

Doesn't God also say "come, let us reason together"? (Isa 1:18)

If the unbelievers live for all eternity in "eternal torment", regardless of whether it be of God's doing or their own, then does that not give sin and/or Satan more power than God?

 

[jesusfreak3786]

1. Adam did not exist before God created him.
And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him GENESIS 1:27

2. Adam's physical being was created out of dust.
And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul GENESIS 2:7

3. God told Adam that if he ate from the tree he would die.
But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.
GENESIS 2:17

4. God's own description of that death was?????????
In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return GENESIS 3:19

You don't have to read far to find the truth about death.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

In the original Hebrew the word used for soul is ne'phesh, and in the Greek it is psy-khe' in both languages the meaning is the same.

Being
creature
or person

The same word is used to refer to the life of an animal.

And God went on to say: “Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens. GENESIS 1:20

Also a soul can be struck by a sword.

And they went striking every soul that was in it with the edge of the sword, devoting [them] to destruction. No breathing thing at all was left over, and he burned Ha′zor in the fire. JOSHUA 11:11

The persons soul is there state of living, and is not immortal.

 

[Fireinfolding]

In the original Hebrew the word used for soul is ne'phesh, and in the Greek it is psy-khe' in both languages the meaning is the same.

Being
creature
or person

The same word is used to refer to the life of an animal.

And God went on to say: “Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens. GENESIS 1:20

Also a soul can be struck by a sword.

And they went striking every soul that was in it with the edge of the sword, devoting [them] to destruction. No breathing thing at all was left over, and he burned Ha′zor in the fire. JOSHUA 11:11

The persons soul is there state of living, and is not immortal.

According to the wisdom which pertains to that "under the sun" (given to Solomon) They all have ONE breath right? This is the breath that gives life to the body (your seeing)? A living soul right?

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Pertains to the ONE breath right?

When the Wisdom of God from above come (Christ) one who is greater then Solomon, He said unless they drink his blood and eat His flesh they had NO LIFE in them.

Did Jesus count the breath they had in them as life?

When Jesus breathed on the disciples who were "living souls" (after a carnal truth) though all were really dead (after a spiritual truth) would His breathing on them be counted as THE SECOND breath? (like all in Adam= one breath, living soul) All in Christ= second breath quickening spirit.

Just wanted to know where you are coming from on the breath thing.

(((only asking questions))) unless you feel its irrellevant?

When you show "creature", how do you see that in light of the NEW creature?

 

[sawdust]

SAWDUST

I have two questions for you. If we really don't die...completely then what need is there for a resurrection?

And if you are eternally alive in "hell" the bible is made to be a liar.
And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na MATTHEW 10:28

Which one? The resurrection unto life or the resurrection unto death? The irony is, if the soul isn't immortal as you claim, there really is no need for the second resurrection. The Lord could simply annihilate the unbelieving souls by leaving them where they are (in the grave) for eventually death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire and the whole lot would be annihilated.

What you don't seem to understand is that souls are saved; bodies are resurrected. We await the resurrection of the body but our souls were saved the day we were found to be in Christ. Although both pertain to salvation, they are two different methodolgies the Lord utilises. Souls are transferred (from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of light) and bodies are resurrected. The mortal putting on the immortal and corruption putting on the incorruption. The soul is not corruptible in the same manner as the body. The body reverts back to where it came from (ie the dust) but the soul does not go back into the nothing from which it came. The soul is corrupted by it's own darkness (ie lies = evil). Living in that darkness is death to the soul.


You think a soul that doesn't have eternal life is not a soul destroyed? Do you not remember the destruction of your own life proir to being a believer? I know I do.

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev.20:10

The scripture speaks of everlasting torment. Stop dismissing it just because you don't like the idea. Learn what it means and why it is necessary for angels and men to go to the lake of fire. There is still so much to learn .... for all of us.

peace

 

[sawdust]

Are you asking people in this instance to trust God in blind faith?

Doesn't God also say "come, let us reason together"? (Isa 1:18)

I give four scriptures and my reason why and you see that as blind and without reason?

Faith is not blind when it is centred in the word of God. I do not claim to know the truth 100%, far from it, but if you want me to reason with you then you will need to reason in the word of God with me. I am more than willing to be corrected but you will need to supply the word to correct me.

If the unbelievers live for all eternity in "eternal torment", regardless of whether it be of God's doing or their own, then does that not give sin and/or Satan more power than God

I have no idea how you come to this conclusion.

From the beginning of man's existence on this earth the Word proclaimed "eat from the tree and you will surely die".

The fact that men will be in the lake of fire only goes to show that God's word was right all along. Adam should have believed the Lord simply because He said so. Let's face it, if God truly is who He says He is, who you gonna believe? A man (with some knowledge), an angel (with a little more knowledge) or God (who knows all things)? I know whose word I will trust.

At the very least least Adam should have stopped and asked himself "who knows more about the realities of life and death? A serpent? A woman? or the Lord Himself? He didn't stop and the rest, as they say, is history.

If you want to reason with me the soul is not immortal? I'm all ears.

peace

 

[sawdust]

1. Adam did not exist before God created him.
And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him GENESIS 1:27

2. Adam's physical being was created out of dust.
And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul GENESIS 2:7

3. God told Adam that if he ate from the tree he would die.
But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.
GENESIS 2:17

4. God's own description of that death was?????????
In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return GENESIS 3:19

You don't have to read far to find the truth about death.

If you knew what those verses say in the original Hebrew you would realise it is not as clear cut as you want to make it.

peace

 

[Gary51]

I cannot tell you what someone else knows or doesn't know only what *I* see or understand (or think I understand). And I don't think the scriptures even address what you asking except to say that we are not our own and that whether we live or die we are THE LORD'S. No man lives unto himself and no man dies unto himself. These are all spiritual truths that apply to those of us who are "in this world" as it is those of us who are in this world who are in need of a Savior.

The scriptures do not tell us what comes "next" only that Christ will turn the kingdom over to the Father and He will be "all in all".

I have enough to worry about in this life without trying to figure out what God has in store for eternity.

Why can't you tell me what others know... I can tell you what others know.

Others know Jesus is the Son of God.
Others Know Jesus walked on water.
Others know Satan is a bad guy.

Or, do you mean you can not tell me what others know... because it is really you who doesn't know.

Then you tell me that the scriptures do not tell us what comes next... Oh dear!!!

 

[Gary51]

Then you would make a good Atheist Apologist.

Matthew 22:7 `Yet having heard, the King was wroth, and sending his soldiers/armies/strateumata, destroys/apwlesen the Murderers/foneiV, those, and their City sets in flames;

Luke 21:20 `And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by armies/stratopedwn <4760>, then know that come nigh did Her desolation/erhmwsiV <2050> ;

You add to your own confusion.

 

[Gary51]

Yes, it seemed to me to be "a trap". I even started to ask you if it was (rather than accuse you) but I reconsidered since I was going to ask in response to a post you posted to someone else rather than me.

But what does it mean to be "sure" about what one believes?

Does that mean that we can never change our minds? that God can never add to our understanding and lead us in a "new" direction?

I am "sure" of what I believe and why. However, that doesn't mean that I am "right" or that God can't show me something different tomorrow that would "change my mind".

Well, I think most Christians are sure that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. And I think we can be sure that will not change in the future... so that is a fact.

The Bible is a book of facts... but the reason that traditional Christianity has split into over two thousand denominations is a testament that Christians are devided and can't agree on the facts.

It's going to take the return of Jesus to sort it all out.

 

[Gary51]

Rev 6:9

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Forgive me...

Well, that not really an answer is it... the first thing is, that was a vision... it was not real.

But if you would like to tell me in your own words what you think that passage means... I'd be very interested.

 

[Gary51]

Unbelievers go down to the grave and wait there until the resuurection of the body which, for them, will be at the Great Throne judgement. They wait in that part of the grave known as Torments which is where the Rich man (from the parable is).

Believers go to be with the Lord and wait there for the resurrection of the body. Those who died prior to the resurrection of Christ waited in the grave in the place known as Paradise. When Christ rose, he went down and gathered those souls and ascended with them as captives. (ie they had been captives to death)

Does that help?

peace

Well it helps me know what is in your head.

 

[mystery4]

I give four scriptures and my reason why and you see that as blind and without reason?

Faith is not blind when it is centred in the word of God. I do not claim to know the truth 100%, far from it, but if you want me to reason with you then you will need to reason in the word of God with me. I am more than willing to be corrected but you will need to supply the word to correct me.




I have no idea how you come to this conclusion.

From the beginning of man's existence on this earth the Word proclaimed "eat from the tree and you will surely die".

The fact that men will be in the lake of fire only goes to show that God's word was right all along. Adam should have believed the Lord simply because He said so. Let's face it, if God truly is who He says He is, who you gonna believe? A man (with some knowledge), an angel (with a little more knowledge) or God (who knows all things)? I know whose word I will trust.

At the very least least Adam should have stopped and asked himself "who knows more about the realities of life and death? A serpent? A woman? or the Lord Himself? He didn't stop and the rest, as they say, is history.

If you want to reason with me the soul is not immortal? I'm all ears.

peace

I would like to apologise. I didn't pray before responding. From my reading of your post, I couldn't comprehend how three of the verses you quoted were relevant nor how the context was even remotely near to the question of God's character being brought up by Jesus Freak. that was where my question regarding "blind faith" came from.

I am quite happy to reason with you on the soul not being immortal, and look forward to learning some things from you.

I don't have much time now, but God said in Gen 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

you said God was proved right because men will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that, if as you say men will live forever in the torment of their own making in the lake of fire then it means they cannot die. Which means that God either didn't mean what he said, and Satan can be proved right in his accusations of God being unfair or God was lying. In which case, how are we to believe anything God says.

I will respond more tomorrow as I need to go now. Looking forward to hearing your response. God Bless.

Have a read of Eph 3:16-21. Your sister in Christ.