Immorality in the Church

[Carl Emerson]

That doesn't matter. The claim is 75% (or 68%) of ALL men).

Pretending that Christians are a unique category, and then claiming that those viewers, within that unique category, are 'not true Christians' amounts to a disingenuous attempt to squirm out of a truth.

Christians, including their Pastors, watch contentography in significant numbers. And, yes, I've read the Barna summary. The original report dates from 2016 and was on limited availability.

Christians are as moral, or immoral, as the rest of us. The difference is in the hypocrisy.

Live with it.

OB

I think you miss my point...

First off i am unafraid of any truth.

Second the % of all men who have the role of Pastor is very low.

Th study does not claim 68% of each vocational categorisation are watching the stuff. Rather 68% of all men from any vocational categorisation are doing it.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Did they say 68% of buss drivers and 68 % of Pastors are doing it ? Obviously not.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yeah, that would tie in with any figure. As approx. 2/3 of Americans are Christians.

I think we could adjust and fine tune the figures until we are both satisfied. But my overall point was that it's not reasonable to expect Christians to be much more morally upright than any given population group. And I don't know how you would separate the 'Christian population' from the 'general population'. In the US, Christians ARE the general population.

Fair points, however the definition of Christian is an issue.

Some would claim that 68% of those claiming to be of the faith actually are not - this would be an extreme view though.

 

[Occams Barber]

Fair points, however the definition of Christian is an issue.

Some would claim that 68% of those claiming to be of the faith actually are not - this would be an extreme view though.

This known as the "No True Scotsman" defence.

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

Fair points, however the definition of Christian is an issue.

Some would claim that 68% of those claiming to be of the faith actually are not - this would be an extreme view though.

Here's a copy of the summary of the Barna report. I've replaced CF banned words with 'wxyz'.

OB


Wxyz: What Is It and Why Use It?

Wxyz is notoriously difficult to define. For Americans, it’s more a question of function than form.

• The defined wxyz mostly based on the function it serves: for the purpose of sexual arousal.
• Most Americans do not believe full nudity or especially partial nudity qualify as wxyz.
• There is a wide range of definitions of wxyz across various segments of society.

People use wxyz for the obvious: arousal. But also for boredom, curiosity, and fun.

• Younger adults and teens are more likely than older adults to use wxyz for boredom, curiosity and fun.
• Those 25- to 50-year-old tend to use for getting sex tips or to set a mood with a partner.
• “Being less risky than actual sex” is higher motivation among both teens and older adults—for different reasons, presumably.

The Morality of Wxyz

One of the favorable realities uncovered by the research is the degree of transparency respondents display on the topic.

• Wxyz is a much more readily “researchable” topic than it was two decades ago. It’s a subject that does not have the same social taboo that it once did. When respondents were allowed to “opt-out” of questions of a personal nature, more than 90% continued through the survey questions, indicating data reliability.

Most Americans believe wxyz is “bad for society,” but those attitudes are shifting toward neutrality or “good for society” among younger generations.

Only small minority of adults who use wxyz report much “guilt” about wxyz.

• Teens are most likely age segment to experience feelings of guilt, although it’s still a minority of teenagers.
• Practicing Christians are twice as likely as others to experience guilt.

Teens and young adults have “encouraging” or “accepting” conversations toward wxyz.

• When they talk about wxyz with friends, 89% of teens, and 95% of young adults say they do so in a neutral, accepting, or encouraging way. That is, only one in 20 young adults and one in 10 teens say their friends think viewing wxyzography is a bad thing.

Teens & young adults view “not recycling” as more immoral than viewing wxyz.

• 32% say viewing wxyz is “usually or always wrong” compared to 56% who say not recycling is “usually or always wrong.”

Wxyz in the “Screen Age”

Wxyzography has gone almost completely digital.

• Example: 71% of adults, 85% of teens and young adults who have viewed wxyzography did so using online videos
• Magazines, graphic novels, on-demand videos and cable or rented/purchased DVDs are a very small part of the “market.”

Not only is wxyz more accessible in the digital context, but unsolicited wxyz has increased substantially as well.

• Nearly half of young adults say they come across wxyz at least once a week—even when they aren’t seeking it out.
• Nearly three-quarters of young adults (71%) and half of teens (50%) come across what they consider to be wxyz at least once a month, whether they are seeking it or not.

While wxyz has typically been a man’s domain, its usage among young women seems to have become more common, perhaps due to digital access.

• Teenage girls and young women are significantly more likely to actively seek out wxyz than women over age 25, which is similar to men.
• However, more than half of women 25 and under ever seek out wxyz (56% versus 27% among women 25-plus) and one-third seek it out at least monthly (33% versus just 12% among older men).
• In contrast, among teen and young adult men, 81% ever seek it out and 67% at least monthly. Among men ages 25-plus, the comps are 65% and 47

Most teens are “sexting”—either on the receiving or sending end of sexually explicit images.

• 62% of teens and young adults have received a sexually explicit image and 41% have sent one (usually from/to their boy/girlfriend or friend).

Wxyz and Pastors

Most pastors (57%) and youth pastors (64%) admit they have struggled with wxyz, either currently or in the past.

• Overall, 21% of youth pastors and 14% of pastors admit they currently struggle with using wxyz.
• About 12% of youth pastors and 5% of pastors say they are addicted to wxyz
• 87% of pastors who use wxyz feel a great sense of shame about it.
• 55% of pastors who use wxyz say they live in constant fear of being discovered.
• The vast majority of faith leaders who struggle with wxyz say this has significantly affected their ministry in a negative manner. It is not clear why, but youth pastors are twice as likely as pastors to report this kind of unfavorable impact.

There is a big difference of opinion between faith leaders and congregants when it comes to the consequences for pastors who struggle with wxyz.

• Only 8% of pastors think that a pastor should resign his/her position if s/he is struggling with wxyz. Most pastors think s/he should deal with the struggle through counseling or accountability.
• In contrast, 41% of adult Christians think that pastors should be fired or asked to resign if they are found to be using wxyz. Younger Christians are more likely to take a grace-filled approach.

The vast majority of the faith community, including leaders and laity, believe wxyzography is a bigger problem in the Church than it was two decades ago. But many do not know what to do about it.

• 93% of pastors and 94% of youth pastors say it is a much bigger or somewhat bigger problem than it was in the past.
• More than half of youth pastors have had at least one teen come to them for help in dealing with wxyz in the past 12 months.
• Although teens seeking help are mainly teen boys, there is still a significant amount of teen girls seeking help from youth pastors.
• Men of all ages and stages, but especially married men, are coming to pastors for help with wxyzography struggles.
• Despite the awareness of the problem, most churches do not have programs specifically designed to assist those struggling with wxyz use.

 

[Bradskii]

Fair points, however the definition of Christian is an issue.

Some would claim that 68% of those claiming to be of the faith actually are not - this would be an extreme view though.

And a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy into the bargain.

I don't think that either of us is in a position to determine who is a 'true' Christian or not. Because that would need us to define what that means. And then it becomes our personal view. But I know who I consider to be simply a Christian. Someone who says that they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for our sins and was resurrected.

All else is something your denomination and others can argue about.

 

[Larniavc]

Fair points, however the definition of Christian is an issue.

Some would claim that 68% of those claiming to be of the faith actually are not - this would be an extreme view though.

True, but it does seem the case that an outside observer cannot assume the sexual morality (or lack thereof) of any given self identifying Christian because their rates of sexual immorality aren’t different from non-self identifying Christians.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

This statement was made by one of our members - it was posted in the devotional section which doesn't allow for replies or questioning.

The use of this devotional forum for promoting controversial opinion is questionable.

==================================================================
"Statistics have it that up to 75% of Christian men are regularly engaged in viewing sexually explicit videos and images and movies, which includes up to 35% (or higher) of pastors. And many women and children are following suit. So sexual immorality in the church is huge! But this is the “elephant in the room” that most people don’t want to talk about, and if you do, you are regarded as the enemy."
===================================================================

Such a claim needs to be referenced so we can see who made the 'statistic' and how.

When ever a statistic says 'up to X%' it sounds more like advertising an agenda than a scientific conclusion.

So for me the quote does not sound very scientific.

Can anyone confirm this claim with solid evidence please.

Clearly this person is a woman who has been hurt by their husband or even the Pastor's wife who caught him, (just guessing) and is very upset! Who cares where these statistics come from. It's a problem that exists in all churches in varying degrees. So what are you going to do ?
Blessings.

 

[Lost Witness]

Clearly this person is a woman who has been hurt by their husband or even the Pastor's wife who caught him, (just guessing) and is very upset! Who cares where these statistics come from. It's a problem that exists in all churches in varying degrees. So what are you going to do ?
Blessings.

Don't think it's a matter of doing anything,
More a matter of what the LORD will do with this thread.
Having struggled and still struggling with sexual immorality in my mind (passing thoughts he's been helping me with) and often in my intent (when going to hug someone for example)
It's reminding me to be thankful because without giving up those excuses to continue doing as I was sexually. It's likely I'd be struggling still as I had been with adultery, xoidography etc //as I had been and I know in time my mind will be freed as well//
lately being convicted of a few other things,
Being idle is one thing I'm being convicted of,
So much so it's on my mind and worries me senseless..
This thread is helping me to put things into contrast. For which I'm thankful to the LORD.
It's allowed me to reflect on the similarities between making excuses for my sexual immorality and the excuses currently making for my idleness and of this I'm sure is the LORD'S doing.
One Thing starting to realize as I once heard said, when he convicts us of something it's not because he's condemning us, it's because he's saying it's time to free You of these chains, this bondage.
Real freedom and Life comes from the LORD Jesus Christ.
He's The Way, The Truth and the Life.
Real freedom is in HIM


May The LORD Bless You and Keep You

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well for what it is worth here are some comments on how I have overcome this issue.

Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

We have renounced things hidden because of shame.

These are two key verses.

First the mind is not a space for open access from unclean spirits.

It is your space and you own it.

It is your responsibility to tend it like a garden, rip out the weeds with renounciation and refuse the intrusions in His name.

This takes time but persevere and eventually they will give up.

Then give Him your eyes and adopt a disciplined approach to what you ponder on. Be ruthless with this.

Choose the good way of purity. Be ever alert to temptation before it turns into sin. Ask for an early warning system so you dont get caught unawares.

Resist Satan and He will flee from you.

But few have understood that resist in Greek is actually to make arrangements against. So put in place safe destinations.

A few thoughts.

 

[Robban]

Fair points, however the definition of Christian is an issue.

Some would claim that 68% of those claiming to be of the faith actually are not - this would be an extreme view though.

You have heard the story of the prayer meeting?

There was an area in desperate need of rain so a prayer meeting was called,

the inhabitants of the area all prayed fpr rain.

Funny thing though,

only one took an umbrella.

 

[Rev. Adam McKay PhD]

@Carl Emerson


I totally agree with this, but Catholic priests (who the Church does not allow to marry) have a very long and well-known history of molesting and raping kids. On a political debate forum I see threads about Protestant pastors doing it too or preaching various forms of sexual immorality are good and getting in trouble for it. You do not even need to read any statistics to know the problem is getting worse.

Are you suggesting that not being married causes a person to be sexually attracted to children? I noticed you were single. Please keep a distance.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are you suggesting that not being married causes a person to be sexually attracted to children? I noticed you were single. Please keep a distance.

That was not my quote...

 

[jayem]

Getting in a bit late. From a naturalistic worldview, Homo sapiens is a highly sexual species. We are bonobos with bigger and more imaginative brains. If you believe in God, then it follows that’s how we were created. After the flood, God blesses Noah’s children and tells them to be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth. Then years later, the 10th Commandment says not to covet thy neighbor’s wife or slaves. Isn’t there a kind of mixed message here?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Getting in a bit late. From a naturalistic worldview, Homo sapiens is a highly sexual species. We are bonobos with bigger and more imaginative brains. If you believe in God, then it follows that’s how we were created. After the flood, God blesses Noah’s children and tells them to be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth. Then years later, the 10th Commandment says not to covet thy neighbor’s wife or slaves. Isn’t there a kind of mixed message here?

No...

 

[FireDragon76]

Getting in a bit late. From a naturalistic worldview, Homo sapiens is a highly sexual species. We are bonobos with bigger and more imaginative brains. If you believe in God, then it follows that’s how we were created. After the flood, God blesses Noah’s children and tells them to be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth. Then years later, the 10th Commandment says not to covet thy neighbor’s wife or slaves. Isn’t there a kind of mixed message here?

I think God expects us to be more than animals. As Pierre Teilhard de Chardin put it, we are "spiritual beings having human experiences". A wise person is governed by reason, and not by their animal passions.

Of course, not everybody lives up to that. But that's why we are here, to learn and to grow.

 

[Whyayeman]

Fair points, however the definition of Christian is an issue.

Some would claim that 68% of those claiming to be of the faith actually are not - this would be an extreme view though.

I think that is the No True Scotsman argument, put succinctly.

I would have thought that a poorly behaved Christian was as much a Christian as a virtuous one.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think that is the No True Scotsman argument, put succinctly.

I would have thought that a poorly behaved Christian was as much a Christian as a virtuous one.

I don't think appealing to the worst example of something is a very charitable way to engage in discussion/debate,, No True Scottsman aside. Especially if we want to equate the worst example with something essential to the subject being discussed.

 

[FireDragon76]

Fair points, however the definition of Christian is an issue.

Some would claim that 68% of those claiming to be of the faith actually are not - this would be an extreme view though.

There are different interpretations of Christianity. That would be more intellectually honest. Some are good, some are bad.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There are different interpretations of Christianity. That would be more intellectually honest. Some are good, some are bad.

Well from God's viewpoint there are wheat and tares - folks can get Christianised without coming to faith.

Others are 'still born' - just in the Kingdom but bare little fruit.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well from God's viewpoint there are wheat and tares - folks can get Christianised without coming to faith.

Others are 'still born' - just in the Kingdom but bare little fruit.

The parable of the wheat and the tares isn't even necessarily about people in the Church. It's a reiteration of the themes in the prophets, especially Daniel.