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Immorality in the Bible

Generik

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So I was a Christian for the first 20 years of my life (I'm now 22), and now I'm an agnostic. The reason I've created this thread is to question the Christian community on what they think of some of God's decisions in the Bible.

I'm not going to lay out entire verses here (that'd take up too much room), what I'll do is give the verse and sum it up as best I can. Should you doubt any of what I say then I encourage you to look up the verses yourself.

In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 God commands that a rapist must pay his victim's father 50 pieces of silver and then marry her. Now why would he force a rape victim to marry the man who raped her?

In Exodus 21:7-11 God lays out ground rules for how a man should go about selling his daughter as a sex slave. Yeah.

Leviticus 20:13 God orders the killing of homosexuals.

Leviticus 21:9 If a priest's daughter commits fornication, she must be burned to death.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 Kill anyone who doesn't worship the Christian God.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 Kill any woman who isn't a virgin on her wedding night.

Ezekiel 9:5-7 Here's part of it: "Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." < That's God giving the order to murder "little children."

1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants" < Kill the infants; that's what he told them to do.

In Joshua 6:20-21, Joshua describes how, on God's orders, they went in and butchered EVERYONE in Jericho; except for what's-her-face (that harlet) on the wall. But yeah.. the men, women, children, infants.. they were all butchered like cattle.. in their own city. That's what your kids sing about during Sunday School.. the "victory" that was Jericho.

Leviticus 25:44-46 More ground rules on how to operate the slave trade.

Exodus 21:2-6 If you're a slave and you have a child, your child will belong to your master and not to you. < God's rule.

^ If you're saying to yourself "That's all Old Testament stuff, it all changed in the New Testament (a super weak argument as it is)" Then I suggest you look up Matthew 5:17 > "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." < That's Jesus speaking.


Anyways, could someone please explain how all the stuff previously mentioned could possibly be the work of a caring, loving God who values human life? That'd be great, thanks.
 

berachah

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So I was a Christian for the first 20 years of my life (I'm now 22), and now I'm an agnostic. The reason I've created this thread is to question the Christian community on what they think of some of God's decisions in the Bible.

I'm not going to lay out entire verses here (that'd take up too much room), what I'll do is give the verse and sum it up as best I can. Should you doubt any of what I say then I encourage you to look up the verses yourself.

^ If you're saying to yourself "That's all Old Testament stuff, it all changed in the New Testament (a super weak argument as it is)" Then I suggest you look up Matthew 5:17 > "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." < That's Jesus speaking.

Anyways, could someone please explain how all the stuff previously mentioned could possibly be the work of a caring, loving God who values human life? That'd be great, thanks.

Alll the rules were given to preserve the faith, purity and surivial of the Jewish nation. Whenever they ignored God's instructions the people suffered greatly. (ie - God gave the laws for good reason)

Jesus did come to fulfil the law and therefore if one is under the new covenant the laws of the old covenant do not apply. The OT laws are now applicable under the new covenant but with spiritual applications. Ignoring these have the same devastating impact for Christians.
 
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Generik

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Alll the rules were given to preserve the faith, purity and surivial of the Jewish nation. Whenever they ignored God's instructions the people suffered greatly. (ie - God gave the laws for good reason)

Jesus did come to fulfil the law and therefore if one is under the new covenant the laws of the old covenant do not apply. The OT laws are now applicable under the new covenant but with spiritual applications. Ignoring these have the same devastating impact for Christians.

so.. slavery, infanticide, murdering of homosexuals, genocide and rape were all A-OK because it kept the jewish bloodline "pure"? the human race is supposed to follow THAT example?
 
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bling

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So I was a Christian for the first 20 years of my life (I'm now 22), and now I'm an agnostic. The reason I've created this thread is to question the Christian community on what they think of some of God's decisions in the Bible.

I'm not going to lay out entire verses here (that'd take up too much room), what I'll do is give the verse and sum it up as best I can. Should you doubt any of what I say then I encourage you to look up the verses yourself.


Ezekiel 9:5-7 Here's part of it: "Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." < That's God giving the order to murder "little children."

1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants" < Kill the infants; that's what he told them to do.




Anyways, could someone please explain how all the stuff previously mentioned could possibly be the work of a caring, loving God who values human life? That'd be great, thanks.
We are to value human earthly life, but what “value” does and should God place on human earthly life?

How would you compare a person’s earthly life to eternal life in heaven in importance?

What is man’s earthly objective and would the objective of man while here on earth is what really matters since that should be all he is trying to accomplish?

You are actually asking a lot of detail questions that require lengthy answering, but giving you “my” answers will not help as much as you developing your own answer given the right guidance?

I can help you figure this out but it usually takes 13 class periods with hours of homework each night.

Giving you “my answer” is just that “my answer”, when you need “your answer”.

I usually teach this by only asking lots of questions with immediate feedback, so I know what to ask next, so how can we proceed?

Why are you personally really wanting to know the answer to this question and the answer better not be: “to win an argument”, “show how smart I am”, “academic knowledge”, or “for sport”?

Is a close friend or relative asking for your help and would make a big change in their life if they knew the answer?

Generally speaking:


1. What promises has God made about man’s time here on earth?

2. Does God take live away from man or does God quit providing life to man?

3. Is death in and of itself bad?

4. When God gave this specific command to king Saul, how strong where the families of Israel, in other words where they doing a great job raising their own children to be spiritual giants in the kingdom, so it would be easy for them to take on spiritually weak orphans of others to raise them to be spiritual giants?

5. How does the destruction of the Amalekites compare to God sending a flood upon the earth?
 
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Generik

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Ok let's say our Earthly lives are irrelevant and God is perfectly justified in ordering genocides and the murdering of children and babies, as well as the slavery of entire nations.. which means it's perfectly alright to own another human being.
P.S. That whole "marriage is a union between one man and one woman" thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you consider God giving his go ahead in Exodus 21:7-11.

But enywho, let's assume that that's all a perfectly alright thing for God to do.. He can end our Earthly lives on a whim and it's no biggy.
According to the Christian doctrine I was raised with, if a person hears the Word of the Lord but does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour then they will spend eternity in hell.
1. A person is raised as a Muslim for Hindu (or any other religion for that matter) for their entire lives in their home country, and have never had a problem with said religion. If they hear about Jehovah for the first and only time from some incompetent but well-intentioned missionary, and they of course think nothing of it and continue on with their lives, that person is going to spend all eternity having their flesh seared off their bones in the Lake of Fire yes?

2. People never seemed to have a problem with the first point whenever I brought it up.. So I'll address another one; I'm going to assume all these premises are true:
1) God created us
2) God exists outside of time, so he knows what is going to happen
3) Some of us are going to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire
The only logical conclusion that can be reached is that God created every person who's going to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire knowing full well THAT THEY WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!
And let me guess.. you're all, for some weakly justified reason, ok with that?

I understand the Christian way of thinking far better than 98% of the population (my father preaches in the local prison, and frankly he makes Moses look like an atheist). So I know full well that any Christians worth their salt who read what I've laid out didn't for a moment consider that I may have a pretty solid point.

You already know that God has committed infanticide, that he's allowed humans to own other human beings, that he's created eternal beings knowing full well that they'll be tormented for all eternity as soon as they leave this good Earth.

Your reasoning is that if God did it, he must have good reasons for doing it that you don't fully understand, and let's be honest: you're afraid of doubting his motives.
In your mind, he can do no evil. If anyone or anything else were to order the slaughter of babies, they'd be the devil incarnate. If someone had the power to create an eternal life form and then trap it in eternal torment, they'd no doubt be evil in your eyes. But not Jehovah!

Try to look at your religion (yes, it is a religion, whether you say so or not) and your God with unbiased eyes for a whole two seconds. If you don't see how appalling it all is, then you either didn't do it right, or you're a psychopath and morals are a moot point.

Sorry if there were any spelling or grammatical errors, I'm too busy right now to proof-read.
 
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berachah

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so.. slavery, infanticide, murdering of homosexuals, genocide and rape were all A-OK because it kept the jewish bloodline "pure"? the human race is supposed to follow THAT example?

No, being obedient to God kept them under the authority and covering of God, ("whomsoever you chose to obey you become slave to") which ensured their survival. The fact that it was common to incant demonic powers into and over unborn and newborn babies seems to have escaped you. And without the power to cast out demons (which came through the authority of Jesus) they had to either flee or kill the enemy to resist / survive.

To this day the world including the western world (economic slaves) is filled with slaves and this appears acceptable as the term slave is not stated. Generally slaves were well looked after and people often chose slavery rather than abject poverty. Neverthless slavery was abolished by Spirit filled Christians, howbeit slavery will return in the end times.

With regards homosexuality, this is a lifestyle of lust invariably (not always)born out of abusive/overbearing/absent parenting or through molestation of a young person. One need only look at the multiple partnerships (average number of partners of gay men is in the 100's), the high rate of drug and alchol addiction and the high rate of abuse of young boys to know there is a deep searching for something in the homosexual community, (which appears to have been replaced with sexual lust). As God has deemed it a wrongful act, we should all accept He knows why He has declared that.

Nowadays however we can pray, befriend and minister the love of Christ to this community in the hope of bringing restoration to their lives.

I suggest reading the KJV re Ex 21:7-11 where it is clear the daughter is sold into marriage and not slavery.(the custom was for the groom's family to pay a gift to the daughter's parents)

Interestingly the final straw that caused the captivity of the Jews in Babylon was that the Jews kept enslaving each other... Seems this was not acceptable to God!

You can continue to live under the judgement and condemnation of the old testament or you can accept Jesus and come under the new covenant of grace and mercy... You can only be under one of those two covenants and you wil be judged by the one you choose.

Perhaps it would be good for you to live amongst a heathen godless tribe where there is no Christlike goodness and mercy. Perhaps then you will understand why the laws of purity and absolute justice were necessary for survival in those days.
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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So I was a Christian for the first 20 years of my life (I'm now 22)

No you weren't. You weren't a Christian at 2. Maybe you were raised in the Church? Baptized? (If so, which one? Just out of curiosity)

In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 God commands that a rapist must pay his victim's father 50 pieces of silver and then marry her. Now why would he force a rape victim to marry the man who raped her?

That is not the impact of that verse. It would be good for you to understand it before you jump to hasty conclusions like that. Anyway, it has no bearing on the Christian Faith but if it offends you, you need to understand it. Talking to a Rabbi is the best way. You will discover that our Bible really only gives the briefest of mention to things like this, which is a nod to the actual practice, meaning, and import of these things, recorded elsewhere.

In Exodus 21:7-11 God lays out ground rules for how a man should go about selling his daughter as a sex slave. Yeah.

This is an incredibly vile thought for you to have. Really. Repent!
 
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bling

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To Bling:
Ok let's say our Earthly lives are irrelevant and God is perfectly justified in ordering genocides and the murdering of children and babies, as well as the slavery of entire nations.. which means it's perfectly alright to own another human being.
P.S. That whole "marriage is a union between one man and one woman" thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you consider God giving his go ahead in Exodus 21:7-11.

But enywho, let's assume that that's all a perfectly alright thing for God to do.. He can end our Earthly lives on a whim and it's no biggy.
That is not what I was suggesting.

Eternal Life is everything, but our life on earth is not “insignificant” since it determine if we have eternal life with God or annihilation. It is much better to never have the opportunity to choose to accept or reject God’s help if you choose to refuse God’s help, but if you choose to humbly accept God’s charity then that is all you need to have done while here on earth, since with God’s charity comes eternal life.

Read the Lazarus and the rich man story: Luke 16:

19 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz&#8242;arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz&#8242;arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz&#8242;arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

Lazarus like many slaves of rich people provides wonderful opportunities for the rich person to experience Godly type Love through serving the needy.

If you are looking to have humility in order to accept pure charity (God’s gifts that include forgiveness) would it be better to be in a Lazarus situation or a rich man situation?

When the government, the walls around a person, the person’s wealth, the person high education, the person’s great health, and even the person’s family: grumble around them, do they have a great opportunity to turn to God? Yes, some do curse God in that situation, but lots do seem to turn to God?




According to the Christian doctrine I was raised with, if a person hears the Word of the Lord but does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour then they will spend eternity in hell.
1. A person is raised as a Muslim for Hindu (or any other religion for that matter) for their entire lives in their home country, and have never had a problem with said religion. If they hear about Jehovah for the first and only time from some incompetent but well-intentioned missionary, and they of course think nothing of it and continue on with their lives, that person is going to spend all eternity having their flesh seared off their bones in the Lake of Fire yes?
The Bible teaches annihilation and not eternal torture.

2. People never seemed to have a problem with the first point whenever I brought it up.. So I'll address another one; I'm going to assume all these premises are true:
1) God created us
2) God exists outside of time, so he knows what is going to happen
3) Some of us are going to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire
The only logical conclusion that can be reached is that God created every person who's going to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire knowing full well THAT THEY WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!
And let me guess.. you're all, for some weakly justified reason, ok with that?

Again people that go to hell are not eternal beings. God can know all our free will choices throughout our life but that does not cease to make them our free will choices.

I understand the Christian way of thinking far better than 98% of the population (my father preaches in the local prison, and frankly he makes Moses look like an atheist). So I know full well that any Christians worth their salt who read what I've laid out didn't for a moment consider that I may have a pretty solid point.

You already know that God has committed infanticide, that he's allowed humans to own other human beings, that he's created eternal beings knowing full well that they'll be tormented for all eternity as soon as they leave this good Earth.
Being owned by another person does not keep you from going to heaven and might even help you to be humble.

It could be the God of our future (which is the same God of our past), sends information back to Himself on all our free will moral decisions. That does not make it God’s fault for us going to hell and we still have to make those free will choices for God to know them.


Your reasoning is that if God did it, he must have good reasons for doing it that you don't fully understand, and let's be honest: you're afraid of doubting his motives.
I have no problem looking into the logic behind God’s motives.

In your mind, he can do no evil. If anyone or anything else were to order the slaughter of babies, they'd be the devil incarnate. If someone had the power to create an eternal life form and then trap it in eternal torment, they'd no doubt be evil in your eyes. But not Jehovah!
Again no eternal torture. God can cease to provide life at any time and by any means He wishes.

Try to look at your religion (yes, it is a religion, whether you say so or not) and your God with unbiased eyes for a whole two seconds. If you don't see how appalling it all is, then you either didn't do it right, or you're a psychopath and morals are a moot point.

One of us is looking at it wrong.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Hi,

My wife needs the computer so I don't have time to respond to all your questions now. But I will return here latter to answer them. But in regard to the bible teaching rape, consider the following:

Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

The reason many people think this means rape is that the word &#8220;lay hold of&#8221; is taken to mean grabs with force, against the persons will. However the scripture does not actually say that. The word translated in the King James as &#8220;Lay hold on&#8221;, just means to take something. It has not innate meaning of force. The following scripture also uses the same word.

Gen 4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Note the scripture translates the same word as handle, to handle a harp, which is a musical instrument. There is no indication that the word means to forcefully take something, the very opposite is true. You handle a harp gently.

So the verse about the unmarried woman could just as easily be translated as:

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed and take her consensually, and lie with her, and they be found.

One translator of the OT the CEV even goes as far as translating this verse as:

Deu 22:28 Suppose a woman isn't engaged to be married, and a man talks her into sleeping with him. If they are caught, they will be forced to get married.

There really is no indication of force in this verse. To farther strengthen this argument the other verses in the bible that do talk about rape use a totally different word.

The bible also else where condemns people who get others drunk so they can have sex with them. See Habakkuk 2:15 &#8220;Woe to him who causes his friend to drink, joining with your bottle, and also making him drunk, so as to look upon their nakedness!&#8221;
 
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Hawisher

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Thank you, Generik! I'm so grateful to you for explaining my motives to me better than I understood them myself! Heaven forfend that you be incorrect in your interpretation of scripture, of theological concerns like the existence of evil and hell, or anything like that.

Clearly, I'm just afraid to think about it!

"Struggles by non-Christians" is for honest inquiry, not Christian-baiting.

EDIT: Moreover, in regards to the question of God's existence out of time as we understand it and how that could result in some people being punished for all eternity (which is not necessarily the case), for God to give us free will, it is necessary that He not control whether we choose to follow Him or not. Arranging the world such that everyone would follow Him would not allow us free will.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Hi,

I am going to address each of your questions in parts. This time I will discuss the killing of infants when their parents were killed in battle. You quoted:

Ezekiel 9:5-7 Here's part of it: "Kill them all &#8211; old and young, girls and women and little children." - That's God giving the order to murder "little children."

1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants" - Kill the infants; that's what he told them to do.

In Joshua 6:20-21, Joshua describes how, on God's orders, they went in and butchered EVERYONE in Jericho; except for what's-her-face (that harlet) on the wall. But yeah.. the men, women, children, infants.. they were all butchered like cattle.. in their own city. That's what your kids sing about during Sunday School.. the "victory" that was Jericho.

Firstly we need to set some ground rules. God is not just going around killing people for pleasure out of blood lust. In each of these instances the people being destroyed were partaking in practices that God deemed as extremely evil. One of these evil practices was the killing their own infants in child sacrifice. They believed in a god who required children to be thrown alive into burning fire, as a sacrifice to appease their god. Note what Moses said of them from God's very mouth. "&#8216;Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. " Lev 18:21 Note what he says after directly after these passages "'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. Lev 18:24-25 So the first ground rule is God does not approve of child sacrifice, it was for this very reason that the people were being driven out. At the time of Ezekiel God said:

They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin. Jer 32:33-35

Again God is condemning child sacrifice, not approving of it. So the question has to be asked why did a God who disapproves of child sacrifice ask for children to be put to death with their parents. To understand this we need to look at what happened here in Australia some 50 years ago. The government was not happy with the way that the Aboriginal people were bringing up their children, so they forcefully removed many of them from the care of their parents, and gave them to others to look after them. This resulted in abuse of many children by parents who did not care for them, and a generation of people who hated the government for removing them from their birth parents. Now look back at the instances in the bible where God said destroy the children with their parents, the reason for this was to prevent a generation of people who hated the Israelites and hated God. It removed the social stigma associated with the death of the children&#8217;s parents. To finish answering this question we must also look at why God asked for the parents to be destroyed. Firstly we know their practices were evil, they sacrificed children in fire to their gods. But could not God convert them, and the answer to that question is he tried. They knew all the miracles God had performed yet choose to continue in practices that were sinful. Note the following passage.

Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof and said to them, "I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt... Jos 2:8-10

So see the heart of these people they had seen God perform signs and wonders, they had 40 years of contact with Israel, able to learn the teachings of Israel, knowing that God was only going to destroy them if they continued in sin. Yet they chose to not reform but rather fight to keep their evil practices. Only Rahab the harlot repented, and she and her family was spared.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Now for the death penalty for homosexuals, promiscuous daughters, etc.


Many people look to written text to understand God, and there is nothing wrong with that recording an event is important. But when it comes to the bible you have to be careful how you interprate texts, you cant just pull one verse out of the air and say see that proves God is such and such you have to study the whole of scripture to understand its meaning, because as one of the apostles said:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2Ti 3:16-17 NIV

Note an important part of that scripture it says equipped for every good work, not every judgmental or bitter work. The bible says,

And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 1Jn 4:16

So if God is love, why do certain scriptures in the Old Testament Law appear very harsh, surely a good God would not do anything harsh. Well the reason is preventative, as I will show from scripture. The law is put in place in an attempt to prevent crime. Like we have jail and fines to try to deter crime. Obviously the stricter the punishment then the less likely a person is to offend. We will now move onto a case study from scripture to show the law is in fact preventative. Take the following law:

"'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife&#8212;with the wife of his neighbor&#8212;both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. Lev 20:10

So if you read that verse alone you might think well God is fairly judgmental and bitter, he just wants to kill people for weakness, and sin. But what we find in he rest of scripture is that God never put one adulterer to death, in fact he pardoned them. Take the following three examples:

a) David the guy who slaid Goliath had sex with another mans wife, David then even had the guy killed to cover up the fact that Uriah did not have sex with his wife. Yet the prophet of God who God sent to tell David off, a man who knew God's character and had conversations with God, let him live, and did not ask any one to kill him. The prophet did not agree with his sin, in fact he said God would curse him for a time for it.

b) Jesus pardoned a woman caught in the act of adultery, saying to the angry mob about to stone her to death, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Joh 8:7 only saying to her when they all left "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

c) Joseph was called "righteous", or good by the apostles because he refused to have his girlfriend put to death (made a public example) when it was found out she was pregnant. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.. Mat 1:19

So we can see clearly God never put an adulterer to death
 
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FutureAndAHope

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As for the slave trade. Just because there were rules about dealing with slaves does not mean God wants people to be slaves. The fact was that slavery was common at the time of Moses and God thought it easier to make rules governing it rather than removing it immediately. You will notice in the bible people could only keep a slave for seven years, after which time all slaves had to be released. This gave people time to plan for the release of the slaves. The slave owner also had to provide some of his property for the slave, had to be generous to them.

Deu 15:8-9 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth. Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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As for God grooming slave girls for sex, this is not the case, God was laying down rules for the protection of the slave girl incase the owner took advantage of her sexually. They had to be treated as a wife, and could not be discarded.

Exo 21:9-10 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

God's actual view on sexual desire is as follows:

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

1Th 4:5-7 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
 
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aiki

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In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 God commands that a rapist must pay his victim's father 50 pieces of silver and then marry her. Now why would he force a rape victim to marry the man who raped her?
Because if he didn't marry her, the woman, being "de-flowered" through rape, would spend the rest of her life as a "ruined woman," unmarried, living in destitution as a social outcast. Certainly, making the man who raped her bear the responsibility of caring for her showed a concern for the victim of rape that was practically unknown in the time this law was given.

In Exodus 21:7-11 God lays out ground rules for how a man should go about selling his daughter as a sex slave.
Exodus 21:7-11
7 "And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.
8 If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
10 If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights.
11 And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money.

First, the act of a man selling his daughter (or any child for that matter) into slavery was conditional on him being absolutely financially insolvent. It was the only circumstance under which such a thing would be considered in Jewish society. He could not sell his children to turn a quick profit. Really, releasing his children into servitude was an act that would protect the children from the destitution his financial insolvency had caused. As servants, the children would be fed, and clothed, and sheltered for a full six years. This was certainly a situation preferable by far than having the family poverty-stricken.

Second, the daughter had a guaranteed release after six years of servitude.

Third, the daughter was not obliged to marry the man into whose service she was sold.

Fourth, if the daughter was married, she was accorded all the rights and privileges of a member of the family. She was no longer considered a slave.

In comparison to other cultures, these laws governing indentured servitude (not slavery) in Israel, took far greater pains to preserve the rights of the one who became a servant. In other cultures of the time a slave was considered on par with a piece of furniture.

Leviticus 20:13 God orders the killing of homosexuals.
Homosexuality is a perversion of God's intended design for human sexuality. As a people called out from among the pagan nations that indulged this and other vile perversions and wickedness, Israel was to reflect God's attitude toward sin. Separation, holiness, and purity were paramount goals in the laws God gave to Israel. As representatives of God, the Israelites were to reflect His holiness and hatred of sin in how they lived. Thus, homosexuality was prohibited in Israel on pain of death.

Leviticus 21:9 If a priest's daughter commits fornication, she must be burned to death.
Leviticus 21:8-9
8 Therefore you shall consecrate him, for he offers the bread of your God. He shall be holy to you, for I the Lord, who sanctify you, am holy.
9 The daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by playing the harlot, she profanes her father. She shall be burned with fire.


This is a testament to the great seriousness of the role of priest in God's eyes. Priests, as special representatives of the holy God of Israel, were to reflect in all things the holiness and purity of the God they served. A priest's daughter would, by her intimate familial connection to her father, corrupt this reflection should she engage in sexual promiscuity. As this law indicates, God looked very severely upon a daughter who would profane her father in this way.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 Kill anyone who doesn't worship the Christian God.
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
12 Then they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;
13 and whoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.


Israel had abandoned their covenant with God and King Asa determined that Israel would once again honor it. To this end, the many Israelites who heeded King Asa's call to gather were required to agree to return to the Old Covenant Israel had made with God. God had made it clear through the prophet Oded that if King Asa did this thing, and Israel honored its covenant with God, He would be with Israel, but if Asa did not, God would forsake Israel and terrible consequences would ensue. The future well-being of Israel hung upon the agreement of the Israelite people to return to their covenant with God. It was a testament to the great seriousness of the covenant Israel had made with God that death was the penalty for reneging on it.

You refer to the God of the Old Testament as "the Christian God" but at the time of the events written of in 2Chronicles 15 Christianity did not exist. The Israelites, then, were not called to worship "the Christian God."

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 Kill any woman who isn't a virgin on her wedding night.
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
20 But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman,
21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.


This passage explains pretty clearly why a woman who had lost her virginity before marrying was to suffer the death penalty. You may not like this law but in a nation intended by God to reflect His purity and holiness it was of the utmost importance that this sort of sin not be tolerated in the least.

Ezekiel 9:5-7 Here's part of it: "Kill them all &#8211; old and young, girls and women and little children." < That's God giving the order to murder "little children."

1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants" < Kill the infants; that's what he told them to do.

In Joshua 6:20-21, Joshua describes how, on God's orders, they went in and butchered EVERYONE in Jericho; except for what's-her-face (that harlet) on the wall. But yeah.. the men, women, children, infants.. they were all butchered like cattle.. in their own city. That's what your kids sing about during Sunday School.. the "victory" that was Jericho.
As the Creator of all life, God is in a singular position to be the One who takes life as well. In fact, He is the only One who truly has this right. And He exercises it with every person He has made. The truth is, God kills everyone. But this is as it should be. He gave life and it is His to take away when He sees fit. Every person God makes has an expiration date that He has ordained. Some will die by accident, others by disease, some by the consequence of their own foolish choices, some simply because of old age. In every case, however, God has a hand in a person's death.

In light of God's role as Giver and Taker of life, it seems to me to be an odd thing to object to His exercising His divine right in this matter through the actions of an army. Why is God obliged to take life only in the manner in which we prefer?

In the instance in Ezekiel 9 God is judging the Israelites who had done great evil in God's sight. The passage in which the verse you mention appears explains this. Why were the children not exempt from the judgment that fell upon the older Israelites? Many explanations have been offered but the simplest and perhaps the best one is that the children were, regardless of their age, Israelites too. And God was judging the nation of Israel, not just certain individuals within the nation. God's severity in His punishment of Israel's wickedness revealed His utter hatred of sin and His determination to expunge it root, branch and leaf.

If you're saying to yourself "That's all Old Testament stuff, it all changed in the New Testament (a super weak argument as it is)" Then I suggest you look up Matthew 5:17 > "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." < That's Jesus speaking.
Well, you should have some clue that things have changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament simply from the terms "old" and "new" that describe the two testaments. The New Testament is a just that: a new testament and a new covenant that God made through Christ, not just with the Israelites, but with all those who will come to faith in Christ as their Saviour and Lord.

Do you have any idea what Christ meant when he said that he had come to fulfill the law and prophets? Have you read the Sermon on the Mount in which the verse from Matthew 5 appears? You seem to want to construe Christ's words to mean that he was merely confirming the Old Testament law, but this not what Christ himself goes on to say. Perhaps you should read the Sermon before you start making assertions about it's meaning.
Anyways, could someone please explain how all the stuff previously mentioned could possibly be the work of a caring, loving God who values human life? That'd be great, thanks.
In all the examples you've offered, I see a holy God acting in perfect accord with His holy nature. I see a God who values holiness and moral purity above sustaining life that is steeped in wickedness. I don't see that this is wrong - especially in light of God's unique role as the Creator and Giver of Life.

We think God ought to share our deep desire to live. We think He ought to hold our continued existence on this planet in as high esteem as we do. But, He doesn't. God hasn't made us just for time; He has made us for eternity. He sees our lives extend beyond the relatively brief time we spend on earth. He sees that our time here is only the tip of the iceberg of our eternal existence. So, when it suits His purposes, He will shorten our temporal existence and in so doing lengthen our eternal existence. For the Christian, this is good news, not bad. And it is entirely within God's divine prerogatives to do so. "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."


Selah.
 
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Wingdizzle

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Ya your right, we can sit here all day and pick a few ugly passages out of the Old Testament ^_^

You have made your choice.....go ahead and think Christianity is borderline evil, and has nothing to offer. But why are you still here. Why did you commit time to logging on this forum and typing all that out? Why didnt you go to a Muslim forum and show some ugly passages from the Koran?

Is it possibly because there is some truth within the bible that your heart recognizes? Ask yourself why you are trying so hard to disprove Christianity, or give reasons not to worship YOUR Lord and Savior?

It is also in your age bracket as well...people from the 20-25 age naturally question their views and often take radical extremes when presented with new and fascinating ideas. Youll probably grow out of it, but never forget who feeds your soul my friend!
 
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seasonofillusions

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Ya your right, we can sit here all day and pick a few ugly passages out of the Old Testament ^_^

You have made your choice.....go ahead and think Christianity is borderline evil, and has nothing to offer. But why are you still here. Why did you commit time to logging on this forum and typing all that out? Why didnt you go to a Muslim forum and show some ugly passages from the Koran?

Is it possibly because there is some truth within the bible that your heart recognizes? Ask yourself why you are trying so hard to disprove Christianity, or give reasons not to worship YOUR Lord and Savior?

It is also in your age bracket as well...people from the 20-25 age naturally question their views and often take radical extremes when presented with new and fascinating ideas. Youll probably grow out of it, but never forget who feeds your soul my friend!

Because we don't live in a Muslim nation, we don't have to deal with them. Also very few of them speak english. Did you take note that, that he was given six different answers how does that speak towards the uniformity of christ.
 
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aiki

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Did you take note that, that he was given six different answers how does that speak towards the uniformity of christ.

That depends upon whether or not the answers are contradictory or complementary to one another, doesn't it?

Selah.
 
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F

fdsfndls

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So I was a Christian for the first 20 years of my life (I'm now 22), and now I'm an agnostic. The reason I've created this thread is to question the Christian community on what they think of some of God's decisions in the Bible.

I'm not going to lay out entire verses here (that'd take up too much room), what I'll do is give the verse and sum it up as best I can. Should you doubt any of what I say then I encourage you to look up the verses yourself.

In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 God commands that a rapist must pay his victim's father 50 pieces of silver and then marry her. Now why would he force a rape victim to marry the man who raped her?

In Exodus 21:7-11 God lays out ground rules for how a man should go about selling his daughter as a sex slave. Yeah.

Leviticus 20:13 God orders the killing of homosexuals.

Leviticus 21:9 If a priest's daughter commits fornication, she must be burned to death.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 Kill anyone who doesn't worship the Christian God.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 Kill any woman who isn't a virgin on her wedding night.

Ezekiel 9:5-7 Here's part of it: "Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." < That's God giving the order to murder "little children."

1 Samuel 15:2-3 "Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants" < Kill the infants; that's what he told them to do.

In Joshua 6:20-21, Joshua describes how, on God's orders, they went in and butchered EVERYONE in Jericho; except for what's-her-face (that harlet) on the wall. But yeah.. the men, women, children, infants.. they were all butchered like cattle.. in their own city. That's what your kids sing about during Sunday School.. the "victory" that was Jericho.

Leviticus 25:44-46 More ground rules on how to operate the slave trade.

Exodus 21:2-6 If you're a slave and you have a child, your child will belong to your master and not to you. < God's rule.

^ If you're saying to yourself "That's all Old Testament stuff, it all changed in the New Testament (a super weak argument as it is)" Then I suggest you look up Matthew 5:17 > "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." < That's Jesus speaking.


Anyways, could someone please explain how all the stuff previously mentioned could possibly be the work of a caring, loving God who values human life? That'd be great, thanks.


I'd write, but you're not posting this because you want to learn. Remember, you reap what you sow.
 
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C

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So I was a Christian for the first 20 years of my life (I'm now 22)

You weren't a Christian when you were born. When did you "become a Christian?"

I ask because you are obviously questioning basic things. I'm just adding this one to your list!

The reason I've created this thread is to question the Christian community on what they think of some of God's decisions in the Bible.

I'm not going to lay out entire verses here (that'd take up too much room), what I'll do is give the verse and sum it up as best I can. Should you doubt any of what I say then I encourage you to look up the verses yourself.

In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 God commands that a rapist must pay his victim's father 50 pieces of silver and then marry her.

No He didn't. You have no understanding of this text whatsoever. Hence; no Faith. Correcting that would include recognizing that such things are mere brief mentions in our Bible, that only point to the long and detailed history of how it was carried out, which gives the understanding of what it means. For this you would need to speak to a Rabbi.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 Kill anyone who doesn't worship the Christian God.

Sorry but this is still some 1,000 years before Christ; bad allusion. Your ignoring of the context leads to faulty understanding.

Leviticus 25:44-46 More ground rules on how to operate the slave trade.

Exodus 21:2-6 If you're a slave and you have a child, your child will belong to your master and not to you. < God's rule.

^ If you're saying to yourself "That's all Old Testament stuff, it all changed in the New Testament (a super weak argument as it is)"

Your argument is to demonstrate not knowing anything about any of this. You might do better by forgetting all that and simply addressing your last comment here? Why is the difference between the old Covenant extended to man by God from the New Covenant "weak?"
 
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