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Immigration And The Unmentionable Question Of Ethnic Interests

Saturn

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Immigration And The Unmentionable Question Of Ethnic Interests

Arguments over immigration are usually limited to cultural or economic factors. Political scientists like Samuel Huntington point out that the culture of the country will change dramatically if there is a continued influx of Spanish-speaking immigrants. And economists like George Borjas have demonstrated that large masses of newcomers depress wages and create enormous demands on the environment and on public services, especially health care and education.

These lines of argument are, of course, legitimate. But there always seems to be an element of timidity present. No one wants to talk about the 800-lb. gorilla sitting over there in the corner—the issue of ethnic interests.

[ . . . ]

Complete article at http://www.vdare.com/misc/macdonald_041027_immigration.htm

--------------------------

Regards.
 

praying

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Globalism results in increased competition because everyone has potential access to everyone else’s territory, opening opportunities for plundering another's backyard.

Like the Europeans of the 15th - 19th centrury did.


Okay so the bottom line being what exactly in your view?
 
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praying

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Throughout history there has been a propensity for majority ethnic groups to oppress minorities.

Well now that is an absolutley funny thing to put in an article about how Europeans should look our for their own considering European history and its' oppression of various peoples.
 
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Jonathan David

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I think that the author of that piece is missing a few things... or, more likely is being willfully blind to them. The reason that ethnic interests are treated differently is becasue they are different. This will all turn however on whether you believe that "whiteness" is privileged in society. I say yes it is. I point to the whiteness of all Presidents, most CEOs, etc. Some people will say that entertainment business is one where ethnicity doesn't matter but, in fact it is one of the best arenas to see how non-white people are made into the "ethnic others", thereby privileging whiteness as "normal". For instance, I have never heard anyone talk about the Cosby show, In Living Colour or Moesha without mentioning that the shows are about black people. Have you ever heard Friends referred to as a show about a bunch of white people? Me either. You can also see this in music with black music, latin music (even when the artist is born in the USA) etc.... never heard Country called "white people music".... well, actually I have called it that... but you know what I mean.

It is also visible in the way we talk about criminality. There are black gangs and asian gangs and the hell's angels.... when have you ever heard them called a white gang? And of course we can see it in jail populations that always contain an overrepresentation of ethnic minorities. Are these people naturally more criminal? No. They are the victims of systemic discrimination which negatively impacts them both pre-crime (creates conditions that lead to criminality like poverty) and post-crime (unequal treatment by police and courts leading to a greater chance, than white suspects, of moving to the next level at each level of dealings with the criminal justice system... that is arrest, charge, trial, conviction). I was actually sitting in court the other day and it was striking. I looked around and the judge was white, the three lawyers were white, the three baillifs were white, the clerks were white... in fact the only non-white people were the accused and his family who had come to watch.... and this, while anecdotal, is not an isolated experience.

If whiteness is privileged, then it makes sense that "ethnic interests" of visible minorities are acceptable and ethnic interests of white people are questionable..... "but you pinko lefties say that race is a social construct" I hear you cry. Yes, it is a social construct but it has a material reality in the way that it is perceived.... hence the discrimination. To say that race is a social construct is not to say people don't have different colour skin or that people don't hold prejudice based on that skin colour. Rather, it is to say that the way that we understand the notion of race in a specific time and place is socially constructed. This is why it makes sense that Italians and Irish were both considered non-white at times in American history but are now considered to be white people. It also explains why a brother and sister born to parents of different "races" can have such completely different experiences growing up. I have a friend whose mother was white and whose father was native. She is very fair and her brother is very dark. She tells stories about walking into a store with him and being treated totally differently... every single time... treated differently by teachers, by people in authority, etc. If race was "real" than the fact that they have the same blood composition should indicate that they would be treated the same.... but they aren't. The tired line remains true that there is much greater diversity within a category (e.g. whiteness) than there is between them (e.g. whiteness and blackness).

Now, there is one more piece to this that I think is important and the author starts to talk about it. He indicates class distinctions within the category of whiteness and suggests that one group of white people is selling out another group of white people. He says that they are taking short term class distinctions over long term racial distinctions.... but doesn't indicate why one is more long term than another.... because he has completely rejected the notion of race being socially constructed based on his scientific proof that there is genetic differentiation between "races".... well, of course two people with different colour skin have different genes... so, what.... rich people have been exploiting poor people forever. Serfdom in Europe was about white people exploiting white people, the early industrial revolution in Europe was about white people exploiting white people... why he suggests that class exploitation between whites is short term is beyond me... and that it is shorter term than race is just silly... especially as people continue to intermarry muddying the waters of racial differentiation even more. When you consider the exploitation of workers of colour, it's kind of like the movie Bullworth says... "white people got a lot more in common with black people than they do with rich people".

Okay, I have rambled enough and don't even know what I have said...

Oh, one last thing... Usually when you invoke an academic's name, it is useful to explain why s/he is being supported or criticized. This author mentions Samuel Huntington and refers to the "obvious validity" of his work without saying why. If you are interested, Huntington is most famous for his thesis about the Clash of Civilizations.... basically just a replacement for the cold war after the fall of the Berlin Wall.... anyway, the obvious validity of his work was very nicely challenged by Edward Said before he died. This is a short piece that he wrote about Huntington's thesis (http://www.esl.ucsb.edu/people/rightmire/ling2/Ignorance.htm). Only useful if you want.... a little removed from this conversation.

P.S. I should confess that I got a little frustrated with this article and ended up skippping over some of it so if I totally missed the boat and this guy isn't the person that I think he is, please excuse me... I will try to read it again.
 
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Jonathan David

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Oh, one thing that I meant to say... what I tried to suggest at one point, and failed to actually say was that the, if you accept that there is a privileging of whiteness, "ethnic interests" by visible minorities, while based on socially constructed identity categories, is a push for equality (levelling of the playing field) while the "ethnic interests" of white people seve to further the gap between us and the already marginalized "ethnic others"... that's the difference that the author of this piece chooses not to mention.
 
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praying

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JD said:
never heard Country called "white people music".... well, actually I have called it that... but you know what I mean.

Hey JD :wave:

Well actually Black folks call it that. ;)

How's the new year going?

Now back to reading your post.
 
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praying

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Jonathan David said:
It is also visible in the way we talk about criminality. There are black gangs and asian gangs and the hell's angels.... when have you ever heard them called a white gang? And of course we can see it in jail populations that always contain an overrepresentation of ethnic minorities. Are these people naturally more criminal? No. They are the victims of systemic discrimination which negatively impacts them both pre-crime (creates conditions that lead to criminality like poverty) and post-crime (unequal treatment by police and courts leading to a greater chance, than white suspects, of moving to the next level at each level of dealings with the criminal justice system... that is arrest, charge, trial, conviction). I was actually sitting in court the other day and it was striking. I looked around and the judge was white, the three lawyers were white, the three baillifs were white, the clerks were white... in fact the only non-white people were the accused and his family who had come to watch.... and this, while anecdotal, is not an isolated experience.

This made me think of this, take note of newspaper articles regarding crimes. You will note that if the suspect is non-white race is mentioned, however the converse is almost never true. You will find when no race is mentioned the suspect is white.


P.S. I should confess that I got a little frustrated with this article and ended up skippping over some of it so if I totally missed the boat and this guy isn't the person that I think he is, please excuse me... I will try to read it again.


I don't think you missed the boat and I think you cover it fairly well. I skipped over some stuff also mostly because I was trying to get to the meat of the matter relatively quickly and then reading the article reminded me of Al Franken's bit about Ann Coulter in Lying Liars regarding her use of astronomical number of footnotes. If I followed all 66 supporting links in that article I would still be reading it.

Please note I am not implying that anything in the article is a lie.
 
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Brimshack

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Jonathan David said:
Oh, one thing that I meant to say... what I tried to suggest at one point, and failed to actually say was that the, if you accept that there is a privileging of whiteness, "ethnic interests" by visible minorities, while based on socially constructed identity categories, is a push for equality (levelling of the playing field) while the "ethnic interests" of white people seve to further the gap between us and the already marginalized "ethnic others"... that's the difference that the author of this piece chooses not to mention.

I think the best you can say is that ethnic interests CAN be a push for parity, though not necessarily so. It is theoretically possible for a pro-ethnic agenda to aim at superiority, but more oftenm I think pro-ethnic interests aim at symbolic gestures with very little political and economic pay-off. In a sense, many an ethnic agenda effectively empowers the dominant majority by demanding token gestures from those in power. I have attended, for example many a meeting in Native American communities where concrete local problems were the main topic of the day, and people spent a great deal of time talking about how things won't change until white people understand this, or the mainstream schools teach that. That doesn't always happen, but when it does I cringe my teeth through the whole meeting. It's as if some have become so used to white dominance that we are even in charge within their utopian fantasies. And in the end the agendas I'm talking about do less to empower the minority in question than to impose a symbolic obligation on the majority, one which reinforces rather than disrupts established power-relations.

That said, I do agree that a well designed ethnic agenda can be no more nor less than an effort to establish comparable status with the majority. Of course many object to the idea of an ethnic focused politics, and if equality is the issue it is often because these principles violate formal principles of equal treatment before the legal system. That's not the only way to envision equality, and unfortunately it isn't a very effective one if you care about long term inequities. But perhaps the main lesson to be learned there is that social systems are not board games, and perfectly equal treatment can have tremendously disproportionate effects on different populations. In short, equality itself should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
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Jonathan David

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What a very interesting post Brim... I think that I see what you mean. A paternalistic relationship is reinforced (?) and improvements/equality are imagined as being contingent on the "benevolence" of the dominant group... which means that power remains in the hands of the oppressor... Potentially, even if a state of material equality (not political) was reached, it would remain contingent on the whim of the majority... interesting.... I need to read so much more around race/ethnicity.

I do not belive that formal equality is the best path either... though that is likely a part of being in a country where Aboriginal rights/title are constitutionally protected.... ie. formal equality is unconstitutional in some cases.... regardless of why, the idea of basing initiatives on notions of substantive equality rather than formal equality makes perfect sense to me.... at the very least as a remedial measure that might faze out eventually... in my utopian fantasy.
 
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Jonathan David

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mhatten said:
This made me think of this, take note of newspaper articles regarding crimes. You will note that if the suspect is non-white race is mentioned, however the converse is almost never true. You will find when no race is mentioned the suspect is white.

Yeah, that's true isn't it? I will watch that up here too. Hope you are well M. Happy New Year. :hug:
 
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Saturn

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desi said:
Some of my black friends were mad when latinos become the major minority group. I personally welcome the latinos.

When Pat Buchanan was running for Presidency in 2000 for the Reform Party, he had a Black woman as his vice president and she made the comment that immigration takes jobs away from Blacks and they lower the wages for Black citizens.

Regards.
 
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Saturn

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Hispanic births pass Anglos' in Arizona


Kerry Fehr-Snyder
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 4, 2005 12:00 AM

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]More Arizona babies were born to Hispanic women in 2003 than to their White, non-Hispanic counterparts, another reflection of the state's fast-growing Hispanic population.

That could explain how Jose became the most popular boy's name in the state last year, nudging aside Jacob and the long-running No. 1, Michael. [/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][ . . . ][/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Complete article at http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0104hispanicbirths.html[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [/font]
 
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Saturn

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mhatten said:
Umm why do I not think that is the case? :scratch: Come on you can tell.

I've stated before that I believe the United States has enough immigrants now, and we should now just work on integration, while closing the borders to any further immigrants. We have a lack of jobs, overcrowdedness, scarce resources, and under-funded education system that has not been able to integrate immigrants as yet. And I speak as an American born Asian.
 
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