Immediately after death

[friend of]

It's up to you.
The Bible is not the authority for most people, so I understand. It's something I meet quite often.

Who do you think the "great cloud of witnesses" is describing? Hebrews 12:1

 

[CoreyD]

Who do you think the "great cloud of witnesses" is describing? Hebrews 12:1

The Bible tells us, men of faith - some of whom are mentioned in Hebrews 11:1-40.

 

[CoreyD]

@Wings like Eagles So, do we agree that persons do go to heaven, and will live there?

 

[friend of]

The Bible tells us, men of faith - some of whom are mentioned in Hebrews 11:1-40.

Yes. Men of faith who lived, died and resurrected with Christ. They are in heaven looking down upon us alongside the hosts of heaven and the angels. That's what that verse says anyway.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes. Men of faith who lived, died and resurrected with Christ. They are in heaven looking down upon us alongside the hosts of heaven and the angels. That's what that verse says anyway.

That's what you say. No verse says that.
Open the Bible - the authority - and read to the audience, where it says that.

 

[friend of]

That's what you say. No verse says that.
Open the Bible - the authority - and read to the audience, where it says that.

I made myself clear, I guess you just didn't understand my rebuttal of Hebrews 12:1.

 

[CoreyD]

I made myself clear, I guess you just didn't understand my rebuttal of Hebrews 12:1.

Thanks. You did make yourselves clear.
However, Christians are interested in what the Bible says, as opposed to what @friend of thinks, or believes.
Didn't Jesus say preach God's word. Yes. Not our word.
Thank you.

 

[friend of]

Thanks. You did make yourselves clear.
However, Christians are interested in what the Bible says, as opposed to what @friend of thinks, or believes.
Didn't Jesus say preach God's word. Yes. Not our word.
Thank you.

Here's what the bible says CoreyD. Let's go to Hebrews 11:30-40

(NIV) Hebrews 11:30-40 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

—

Now, these verses, that you yourself supplied, are talking about patriarchs and other men and women of God who have gone before us and died. Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, prophets and others who died martyrs. Hebrews 12:1 shows us that these men of faith, who have passed on, who are with God now, are also witnessing us, Christians, as we live out our faith.

That's as clear as I can make it. So, NO, there is no soul sleep anymore.

 

[CoreyD]

Here's what the bible says CoreyD. Let's go to Hebrews 11:30-40

(NIV) Hebrews 11:30-40 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

—

Now, these verses, that you yourself supplied, are talking about patriarchs and other men and women of God who have gone before us and died. Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, prophets and others who died martyrs. Hebrews 12:1 shows us that these men of faith, who have passed on, who are with God now, are also witnessing us, Christians, as we live out our faith.

That's as clear as I can make it. So, NO, there is no soul sleep anymore.

Can you share with us your translation please.
I read, "Therefore, since we also have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let’s rid ourselves of every obstacle and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let’s run with endurance the race that is set before us,"

Where did you read, "with God" "resurrected with Christ" "in heaven looking down upon us alongside the hosts of heaven and the angels"
What translation are you using?
It's not marked @friend of on the cover, by any chance? That's a little joke. I hope it gets a little chuckle.

 

[friend of]

Can you share with us your translation please.
I read, "Therefore, since we also have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let’s rid ourselves of every obstacle and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let’s run with endurance the race that is set before us,"

Where did you read, "with God" "resurrected with Christ" "in heaven looking down upon us alongside the hosts of heaven and the angels"
What translation are you using?
It's not marked @friend of on the cover, by any chance? That's a little joke. I hope it gets a little chuckle.

NIV, not that it matters. How are witnesses watching us if not from above? Do you see a lot of people around you who are currently alive watching what you do and say as you live your life? Surely not. I am correct in my inference that we are being watched by "a cloud" (hint, clouds are in the sky above) of witnesses, which is what Hebrews 12:1 states.

 

[CoreyD]

NIV, not that it matters. How are witnesses watching us if not from above? Do you see a lot of people around you who are currently alive watching what you do and say as you live your life? Surely not. I am correct in my inference that we are being watched by "a cloud" (hint, clouds are in the sky above) of witnesses, which is what Hebrews 12:1 states.

I don't understand.
I checked every translation, and I do not see the word watching.
NIV doesn't have it either. Are you sure you are reading from the Bible?

Perhaps you are asking how they can be witnesses surrounding us, if they are dead?
Perhaps, it would be good to ask two questions:

1. Where are the dead?
2. Why are the faithful dead called witnesses?

Then allow the Bible to answer.

 

[friend of]

I don't understand.
I checked every translation, and I do not see the word watching.
NIV doesn't have it either. Are you sure you are reading from the Bible?

Perhaps you are asking how they can be witnesses surrounding us, if they are dead?
Perhaps, it would be good to ask two questions:

1. Where are the dead?
2. Why are the faithful dead called witnesses?

Then allow the Bible to answer.

I just want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to expand on my thread. Thank you. But I am finished with the conversation. Please go back and re-read post #78 until something clicks.

God bless

 

[friend of]

Unanswerable at this point, other than to point out that "they" (people?) you refer to ("from above") cannot watch us nor see us nor hear us.

Where in scripture does it say they can't? What proof text are you using? I've offered scripture and you guys ignore it.

 

[friend of]

Fwiw, see in Scripture, the dead know nothing.... for starters

That just proves my point. You are quoting old testament, before Christ rose again. Back then people who died were in soul sleep. Not anymore.

 

[friend of]

What you think and post, what I think and post, is like the flowers in the field, growing in the morning, and the same or next day gone.

What God Says is the final , and only, word on the subject.

He says something different about the judgment than your post does.

Okay just ignore scripture and ignore logic then. Be my guest

 

[friend of]

@Aaron112

Tell me, who are the "cloud of witnesses"?

What does "cloud of witnesses" mean to you?

 

[friend of]

No. Your point, whatever it was/is/ is apparently still wrong badly in error contrary to all Scripture OT and NT.

And "Soul sleep" is at best a mis-nomer. At worse it is a whole slew of false ideas (associated with it) ...

Who or what is "the great cloud of witnesses"

Just answer me that question and I'll shut up.

 

[timothyu]

A cloud of witnesses must be seen according to the thoughts and understandings of the day in describing something. Today a cloud could be related to the 'the' cloud, which like possibly previously is simply a collection of data, in their case in days of old a testimony

 

[friend of]

Rather continue seeking and learning the truth, and keep on always seeking the truth.
It is a very common mistake to think someone "in heaven" can see us.

The witnesses are not spectators of us , they are not onlookers at all watching us.
They are the faithful witnesses of faith mentioned earlier in Hebrews, et al.

Note the words used:
cloud = throng. Greek. nephos. Only here. The usual word for "cloud" is nephele.

witnesses. Greek. martus. See John 1:7. Whose lives witness to the power of faith. Not "spectators", for then the word would be autoptes (Luke 1:2) or epoptes (2 Peter 1:16).

If you aren't able to answer a simple question then I'm done.

 

[friend of]

A cloud of witnesses must be seen according to the thoughts and understandings of the day in describing something. Today a cloud could be related to the 'the' cloud, which like possibly previously is simply a collection of data, in their case in days of old a testimony

In the context of the preceeding scripture, Heb 11, my position is soundly within context.