• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Immediate Imputation or Mediate

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟49,309.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'll try to dredge up a citation or two, but I remember noticing that for John Murray's fine exegesis of "the Imputation of Adam's Sin", that Original Sin was concluded as "unmediated" -- that is, technically, "immediate". The explanation was rather interesting, too: that everyone who attempted a mediate-imputation view for Adam's sin ran aground of some one or another issue within the doctrine of Original Sin or with specific Scriptures, one.

On first-blush it's always seemed to me that if Adam actually committed the sin, and I didn't, that somehow the thing was mediated through Adam to me. But in actuality the sin of Adam had an unmediated effect on me.

Plus the parallel point of Romans 5, that our righteousness is mediated through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, is pretty clearly mediate imputation.

Again, most of this was described by Murray, but then no sound theology emerged with this concept.
 

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,582
10,942
New Jersey
✟1,390,909.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Surprisingly, Calvin denies that we are guilty of Adam's sin. I had never thought about whether this contradicts Rom 5, although I had assumed from other discussions that the Adam/Christ parallelism in Rom 5 would say that we sinned in Adam. Sloppy reading, I now see.

Looking at it now, despite the apparent parallelism of Rom 5, Paul never actually says that we sinned in Adam. It says that death entered through Adam, and spread to us as we sin. However redemption comes to us through Christ specifically because of our union with him, though that doesn't seem quite so explicit in this part of Rom 5.

Analogies are never perfect. It looks like the limit of the analogy is that sin entered through Adam and redemption entered through Jesus. But the analogy doesn't include the mechanisms.

This is interesting in the context of other discussions. One of the major objections to evolution is that if there is no literal Adam, then the whole mechanism of redemption as described in Rom 5 falls apart. But if this analysis is right, a literal Adam isn't actually necessary for original sin to work. Rom 5 isn't telling us how original sin is working, but is simply giving a nice analogy based on a concept of sin which his hearers would already have, to help understand Christ's role.

[Note that evolution needn't deny the existence of a literal Adam. One could reasonably maintain that the soul, whether we conceive of it as a separate immaterial part or a quality of our existence, doesn't develop naturally, but is a gift of God. In that case he could have chosen to give it starting with a specific pair of people. I'm not sure whether I'd actually say this or not, but it's a way to maintain a literal Adam.]
 
Upvote 0

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟49,309.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You brought it up, and I do find it interesting that it's death that enters because of Adam, death spreading to all because all sinned.

I'm not entirely sure that's all there is to it, because Romans 5:12 is sitting in the middle of an analogy. And again, the analogy is one of contrasting results -- antiparallel -- death in Adam, life in Christ. The issue I've noticed is that the antiparallel is thought to operate on the same mechanism: imputation. Represented by Adam, we all fall under the condemnation of sin. Represented by Christ, we all fall under the grace of God to salvation.

The points of parallel & antiparallel seem to need some level of contrast, though. For instance, even if Adam's sin is unmediated, it's pretty clear that Jesus' righteousness is mediated through union with Christ. So there's some points where the analogy breaks up.
 
Upvote 0