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Immaculate Conception?
- Thread starter PrettyboyAndy
- Start date
What is the the 5th epochal revelation.
I want to see if I can find any errors in it.
If I can't then I will believe it.
NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.
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It is a error in your theology that I found while examining it.It that supposed to be taken seriously, or is it intended to ridicule the idea that Jesus was both God and Man?
I wanted to read what you had to say about it.
NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.
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A better question would be what does it not have to do with
our topic here, the Immaculate Conception?
You answer it then you will answer your own question.
NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.
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He's not what?
NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.
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Even that is an answer is it not?
NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.
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Brian Mcnamee
Well-Known Member
I do not reject Jesus as he is God and creator and one with the Father and Spirit. The incarnation is really the purpose for all of creation as Col 1 gives a purpose statement.
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[fn] the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. The quotes I shared from the old testament were about the child being king called almighty God everlasting father. The preeminence of Jesus is and has always been and was never dependent on Mary being sinless. Mary is saved and a mighty saint and truly blessed. To put her up anywhere near par with Jesus is blaspheme. The many apparitions is where this doctrine comes from and I call them lying signs and wonders. For instance at Guadalupe Mary came asking for a cathedral for her own honor. At Fatima was proceeded by an angel of light. We are told to test the spirits and be aware that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light. The Bible records a dispute between Satan and trying to get the body of Moses for some purpose. It is obvious that Satan will come in disguise and we should be ready for it.
Here is a statement that many will agree with and reflects the religious spiritual views of many. The central philosophy of Thelema is in two phrases from Liber AL: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, love under will." The two primary terms in these statements are "Will" and "Love", respectively. In the Greek language, they are Thelema (Will) and Agape (Love).
Many churches now teach this philosophy that also teaches everyone is a star. This is right out of Aleister Crowley's OTO church. Many have been duped by what sounds good and positive like love under will. So you redefine love that opposes nothing. A church can put up a rainbow flag and in reality they have fallen from steadfastness. The Mary issue is a counterfeit as the same motives of Satan's fall are evident in her ascent to many calling her co redemptress, mediator of all graces. Isaiah 14
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[fn] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Jesus created all things that he would have preeminence and Satan challenged that. This Marian movement is so parallel that it seems obvious.
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Do you reject Jesus as the Son of the living God?
NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.
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Brian Mcnamee
Well-Known Member
I quote Isaiah unto us a child is given a son is born that is Jesus. Fully Human fully God. One with the Father and the Holy Spirit the triune Godhead.
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I do not believe you quoted Isaiah word for word.
And I also do not believe you comprehend what Isaiah stated.
NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.
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What part of Human is God? Or are they separate?
NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.
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I never said who He is.
NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.
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kepha31
Regular Member
Three facts from the narrative seal the case. First, as St. Thomas Aquinas notes in his commentary on the Hail Mary, the angel’s reverent salutation of Mary is a complete reversal of roles from the Old Testament, in which men revered angels. Such reverence was due to angels because angels have a spiritual and incorruptible nature, are more familiar with God, and “partake most fully of the divine light.” In revering Mary, then, then Angel Gabriel is showing that she surpasses the angels in these three aspects. Only someone “full of grace” could merit such extraordinary reverence.
Second, in the Greek text, as Aquinas points out, Mary’s name is missing from Luke 1:28. The text literally reads as “Hail, full of grace.” Mary has become so “full of grace” that it has consumed her completely—it has become more who she is even than even her very name.
This omission makes the most sense if we translate the verb as grace and not as favor. A favor does not involve the interior man (or woman). It chiefly is concerned with their exterior circumstances. I can do a favor for you without changing who you are (for example, buy you a car, or get you a job). God’s grace changes who we are. Grace implies a spiritual state or interior condition (hence the phrase “state of grace”). One can imagine, then, that someone could be in such an intensive state of grace that it defines their whole personality.
Third, Mary’s reaction to the angel’s words is a giant clue as to their significance. Here is the text again Luke 1:28-35
This is a lot to take in. Mary is “blessed among women.” Her son will be the “Son of the Most High” and a king after David. And she will do this while remaining a virgin. Instead, she will conceive by the “power of the most High.” Terror-inducing words for any mortal ears, not to mention an unmarried teenage virgin. Readers may recall that Mary was “troubled” by the words of the angel.
But go back and read at what point she was “troubled.” Mary’s apprehension comes before the angel foretells the birth of Christ and His kingdom. It comes after just this one line: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. One wonders, were this just an act of divine “favor” what would be so troubling to Mary? Favors are always welcomed, never feared. Divine grace, on the other hand, is powerful, awesome, even fearsome.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception can indeed be “troubling.” Our best response, however, is to follow the example of Mary and accept God’s words in faith.
The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:
“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer).
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).
Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).
Mary did the will of God perfectly. If not, how could Jesus have been born? She did the will of God in what few verses she is found. Jesus is using His mother as a model of faith. There is a unity here, not a false dichotomy. We are elevated to the status of His mother when we do the will of God and keep it. She is not brought down to our sinful level, which is how you read it. The whole point of all Marian teaching is to lead us closer to Jesus, Protestants generally don't understand this. This verse is not problematic for Catholics. It's problematic for those who don't understand that Mary does the will of God. Mary brought Jesus into the world perfectly, it's our job to do the same thing, though imperfectly.
The woman in the crowd also shows the great love they had for His mother, and Jesus was telling them get their priorities straight. "Do the will of God and keep it" and He has given us His mother as a human model to help us do just that.
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Albion
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If the angel's salutation were correctly understood, you wouldn't have any difficulty with this. First, the angel was an archangel (according to Roman Catholic theology), so his purpose is an a messenger, and there is no issue of who is revering whom. Second, he is merely stating a fact--Mary has found favor with God and been chosen for a unique and uniquely important role.
Yes. But none of this amounts to a justification for thinking there had already been any Immaculate Conception.
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