Immaculate Conception?

[miknik5]

Because the claim is that, had Adam and Eve not sinned, there would be no death on the earth. That man inherits death due to the sin.

I'm saying that the death punishment of Adam and Eve was specific to them, death and or translation was /is normal for man regardless. The salvation piece after death is another matter.

How can you say that when the WORD of GOD says otherwise

Romans 5

 

[Colter]

How can you say that when the WORD of GOD says otherwise

Romans 5

You never explained how we would deal with overcrowding if man wasn't naturally supposed to die and leave the earth.

 

[miknik5]

You never explained how we would deal with overcrowding if man wasn't naturally supposed to die and leave the earth.

I don't have to
It never was going to be any other way than the way it is

So I don't have to speculate on that

I already told you IF there even were that possibility there would have been no need for a tree of LIFE to be present in the garden if none would have disobeyed

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Then, I suppose:

For Mary to be sinless, would Mary's parents need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

Also Mary's grandparents, great grand parents and so forth.
Would you agree?
Its like a continuous pipeline of potable water
Can't be potable if one pipe is a septic pipe

Why would her entire lineage need to be saved?
Why couldn't got fill only her with the Holy Spirit/Save her/etc. because Jesus was being born.

The entire OT and NT points to Jesus, everyone else can be sinners born into sin and slaves of sin.

 

[Colter]

I don't have to
It never was going to be any other way than the way it is

So I don't have to speculate on that

I already told you IF there even were that possibility there would have been no need for a tree of LIFE to be present in the garden if none would have disobeyed

The tree of life wasn't for evolved man, it was for Adam and Eve specifically, it was taken away from them specifically due to their disobedience.

You are right, it was never Gods plan for imperfect being to be perfect beyond their capacity.

 

[miknik5]

The tree of life wasn't for evolved man, it was for Adam and Eve specifically, it was taken away from them specifically due to their disobedience.

You are right, it was never Gods plan for imperfect being to be perfect beyond their capacity.

Nope. You are wrong
You are wrong with regards to the TREE of LIFE for HE alone gives the right to eat of that tree which is in the garden of GOD

And you are wrong that death was specific to Adam and Eve because Romans 5 clearly tells us through the one man (Adam) sin entered the world and with it death came to all. Even those who has not sinned after the similitude of Adam

That means sin and the consequence of sin...death...effected ALL

 

[miknik5]

in revelation, CHRIST wasn't talking to just Adam and Eve when HE said HE would give us the right to eat from THE TREE of LIFE which is in the garden of GOD

HE was talking to all who would "overcome"

Revelation 2:7

 

[prodromos]

Ahhhh

H. E. L. P again

Do you know any baby in the womb who can recognize another baby in the womb.

And do you know how the mother could understand what this meant that her baby leapt in the womb and the sound of Mary's voice acknowledging her as the mother of THE LORD?!

Those that are full of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MJFlores]

Why would her entire lineage need to be saved?
Why couldn't got fill only her with the Holy Spirit/Save her/etc. because Jesus was being born.

The entire OT and NT points to Jesus, everyone else can be sinners born into sin and slaves of sin.

Or what is more plausible is - why not make Jesus holy?

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us; we entreat you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Otherwise,

For Mary to be sinless, would Mary's parents need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

Also Mary's grandparents, great grand parents and so forth.
No contamination.

Its like a continuous pipeline of potable water
Can't be potable if one pipe is a dirty pipe

Unless of course, we accept what the bible said:

2 Corinthians 5:21 Expanded Bible (EXB)

God made ·Christ [L the one] who ·had no sin [or never sinned; L did not know sin] to become sin for us, so that in ·Christ [L him] we could become ·right with [L the righteousness of] God.

 

[marineimaging]

Did the Word of God say she was sinless? I don't recall her being anything other than a devout Jewish teen who The Bible says God found favor in. Beyond that she was made to be in a motherly way with the anointed one by the Holy Spirit and against all odds was not put away by her betrothed. Nobody would have blamed Joseph but you can bet that the women of that village examined her and was proven to be telling the truth.

 

[kepha31]

Otherwise,

For Mary to be sinless, would Mary's parents need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

Also Mary's grandparents, great grand parents and so forth.
No contamination.

That's a non sequitur fallacy. Mary did not get her sinlessness from her parents, but by a special act of God at her conception. God can do that because He is God. An angel from eternity delivered God's words "Hail Mary, Full of Grace!..." So WHEN did Mary become "Full of Grace"? Did the angel say, "POOF! You are now full of grace?" That's not what scripture says, but it is how it is read. So again, the question is WHEN.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

You have to downplay the meaning of "kecharitomene" or ignore it all together.

The question is WHEN Mary became "Full of Grace". The same question can apply to John 1:14. I've asked this question 3 times on this thread and no one has answered it. You be the first.

 

[kepha31]

Did the Word of God say she was sinless? I don't recall her being anything other than a devout Jewish teen who The Bible says God found favor in. Beyond that she was made to be in a motherly way with the anointed one by the Holy Spirit and against all odds was not put away by her betrothed. Nobody would have blamed Joseph but you can bet that the women of that village examined her and was proven to be telling the truth.

Typology is the study of foreshadow, which is found all over the Bible. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is not explicit, but it exists in embryonic form. A key verse is Luke 1:28.

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant.
In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.
There are too many parallels to ignore.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ. (her light is from Christ, it is not her own)

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.
scripturecatholic

 

[Colter]

Typology is the study of foreshadow, which is found all over the Bible. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is not explicit, but it exists in embryonic form. A key verse is Luke 1:28.

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant.
In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.
There are too many parallels to ignore.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ. (her light is from Christ, it is not her own)

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.
scripturecatholic

In other words, due to the diversity of concept within the Bible it can be used to say what one needs it to say.

 

[MJFlores]

That's a non sequitur fallacy. Mary did not get her sinlessness from her parents, but by a special act of God at her conception. God can do that because He is God. An angel from eternity delivered God's words "Hail Mary, Full of Grace!..." So WHEN did Mary become "Full of Grace"? Did the angel say, "POOF! You are now full of grace?" That's not what scripture says, but it is how it is read. So again, the question is WHEN.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

You have to downplay the meaning of "kecharitomene" or ignore it all together.

The question is WHEN Mary became "Full of Grace". The same question can apply to John 1:14. I've asked this question 3 times on this thread and no one has answered it. You be the first.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." Let us check this one shall we?

Luke 1:28 New King James Version (NKJV)

And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

Luke 1:28 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord is with you; you are very special to him.”

The angel said "Hello! You are very special to God. You are blessed among women because you were chosen to be the mother of the Messiah."

What is "kecharitomene" here? Is that kechap + chicharon + rice to me?

A simple hello from angel Gabriel becomes "kecharitomene", I say wow. How about if you hear a goodbye from him?

I've asked this question 3 times on this thread and no one has answered it. You be the first

I am also at a lost with the term - kecharitomene - must be Greek. No wonder no one answered it - we really don't want to be stress out.

I won't downplay what kecharitomene or anything. I would let the Lord Jesus do that.

Luke 11:27-28 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

What can we learn from the Lord Jesus?
Was the woman who bore him, more blessed?
Was the woman who breastfed him, more blessed?

What did the Lord Jesus said?
“Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

 

[miknik5]

In other words, due to the diversity of concept within the Bible it can be used to say what one needs it to say.

Or, if you don't like what it says, can we write a book that will say what we want GOD's WORD to say ?

And we can add names where names weren't mentioned?

Like the book of urantia?

 

[Colter]

Or, if you don't like what it says, can we write a book that will say what we want GOD's WORD to say ?

And we can add names where names weren't mentioned?

Like the book of urantia?

Be aware of false prophets, and be open to true ones.

The Jews make your same argument about Jesus, they have sound scripture based reasons to reject Jesus.

 

[miknik5]

Be aware of false prophets, and be open to true ones.

The Jews make your same argument about Jesus, they have sound scripture based reasons to reject Jesus.

Nope

I'm like John..

"Are you the ONE we should wait for...or is there another?"


There is no other we are waiting for

 

[miknik5]

Many will come and say here is the Christ or there is the Christ

We don't need anyone telling us anything.

There are no more "prophets"

Only WITNESSES who point to and testify of CHRIST

 

[QuikSand]

Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

How come you do not believe Jesus is half man
and half God?

NOTE*** This is just my own opinion and not to be taken
as truth or lie. For discussion purposes only.

 

[Colter]

Nope

I'm like John..

"Are you the ONE we should wait for...or is there another?"


There is no other we are waiting for

I'm so grateful to have an open mind and receive the gift of the latest revelation of truth, the 5th epochal revelation.