Immaculate Conception?

[BobRyan]

Except that it would not be our flesh but a parallel flesh with no connection to our own. If God could do what you propose, don't you think He would have?

God is infinite and has a great many "options" open to Him. He can do anything he wants -- but that does not mean He is doing all the options at once - that would not make sense. So fine... He "picks one".

But some have worded it in such a way that they suppose God was stuck with Mary. He was not. She was a good person, and a sinner in need of salvation as were many others at that time. Once He sovereignly chose to not simply create a body from dirt - He then selects a virgin for the "incarnation".

And by that I do not mean "procreation". In procreation the mother gives life to the child. In the incarnation and pre-existent being is "incarnated" into human flesh.

Big difference.

Why go to all the trouble of finding a suitable virgin then going through all the difficulty of growing in her womb, being born and nursed, getting nappies changed etc. Why not just do what He did with Adam?

He certainly could have done that. But that did not fit the plan he had.

In fact - He "could" simply have Christ come floating down from heaven as an adult... go straight to gethsemane and die a supernatural death - paying for the sin-debt of the world. Three days later resurrect and ascend to heaven 40 days later.

Many "options".

Unless, contrary to what you suggest, it was necessary for the purpose of our salvation that Christ actually be born of the same flesh that we all are.

The first temptation of Christ in Matthew 4 is the tempation to turn stone into bread after starving for 40 days.

Let me ask you - how "tempted" are you to turn stone into bread after you have been fasting for a few days. "Not at all"?? because you have no such "powers"?

hmmm ... what does that tell you?

So then Christ comes to earth adopting our weakened fallen nature - but not our sinful nature. From Mary and Joseph he would have gotten a sinful nature (though certainly God "could" have made that happen differently) - I think the purpose of the virgin birth was to emphasize that this is full incarnation and not at all -- procreation.

 

[Galilee63]

All from Jesus God and The Holy Spirit because our Lord Jesus descended to earth from Heaven from God and has been there since the foundation of the beginning as Jesus said Himself in His New Testament with His Father God our Creator at the very beginning and the Priests and Prophets of God our Creator saw Jesus before He was born of our Blessed Virgin Mother in Holy Visions given by God on so many occasions

 

[Galilee63]

God our Father with Jesus and The Holy Spirit said in His Old Testament that His Messiah would be forthcoming with His Mercy and Jesus has through His Precious Holy Blood of which Jesus has implored Saints and lay people to preach teach speak about for centuries more greatly because for one reason when we offer our hearts souls to be soaked or immersed in Jesus Sacred Wounds and for His Precious Holy Blood poured out upon us Jesus told His Saints Nuns that He will greatly more Bless gift and give His Graces to those whom Honour His Sacred Wounds and precious Holy bitter Passion Stations of The Cross and Holy Blood of which cleanses souls thru Confession in humility and remorse favouring hearts who are humble like little children

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus told His Saints Nuns that He will greatly more Bless gift and give His Graces to those whom Honour His Sacred Wounds and precious Holy bitter Passion Stations of The Cross

Where in the Bible did "that" ever happen??

 

[Galilee63]

Our Blessed Virgin Mother lived most of Her Life in the Temple from toddler years with Holy Saint Anna and Holy Joachim through and by God leaving Mary there like the Nuns in Convents Mary our Mother fasted prayed followed Gods Commandments strictly lovingly and faithfully hence the magnificent Holy appointments and Guidance with Jesus and The Holy Spirit of Nuns Sisters each century Mother Theresa thru Our Heavenly Mother Mary always never underestimate our Holy Queen of Heaven and earth for all of Gods Holy works through Mother Mary with Jesus and Holy Spirit every Nun thousands of them to set up hospitals schools convents outpost communities orphanages world wide

 

[Galilee63]

No comment

 

[Galilee63]

No comment

 

[Galilee63]

Our Blessed Virgin Mother was not a sinner.

That comment is blasphemous wrong non factual and who are you to judge Gods Holy Favoured Daughter and our Holy Queen of Heaven of Whom intercedes for us all.

If you can't receive Jesus and The Holy Spirit into your heart go to confession to our Lord Jesus first and confess the Blasphemy against Our Mother of God yes Holy Blessed gifted Mother of "God" and I won't be responding to any of your posts as a result of your blasphemy hurt and degradation of my Mother

 

[BobRyan]

Our Blessed Virgin Mother lived most of Her Life in the Temple from toddler years with Holy Saint Anna and Holy Joachim through and by God leaving Mary there like the Nuns in Convents Mary our Mother fasted prayed followed Gods Commandments strictly lovingly and faithfully hence the magnificent Holy appointments and Guidance with Jesus and The Holy Spirit of Nuns Sisters each century Mother Theresa thru Our Heavenly Mother Mary always never underestimate our Holy Queen of Heaven and earth for all of Gods Holy works through Mother Mary with Jesus and Holy Spirit every Nun thousands of them to set up hospitals schools convents outpost communities orphanages world wide

Since that is not in the Bible - and since tradition has it that John took Mary to Ephesus where she and he both died of old age... where did you get the story above?? what is the source?

 

[Galilee63]

Given you are blasphemous about our Heavenly Mother why would I in Jesus Righteousness respond to your question!

if you cannot comprehend Gods Holy Word correctly through Holy Spirit from God Himself about Gods most Precious Holy Gifted and Blessed Daughter and Mother then I cannot help you.

Any person whom goes against Our Heavenly Holy Mother of God Himself is going against Jesus God and Holy Spirit period. No ifs buts or excuses. Souls are judged severely for this because for one reason it's a grave sin against God our Creator a grave sin against Jesus and a grave sin against The Holy Spirit in addition to the hurts against God it is turning Christians and would be Christians away from God and in conversions to become Christians through JESUS HOLY SPIRIT AND OUR BLESSED VIRGIN MOTHER MARY of Whom work for the Glorification of GOD our Creator and Father Heavenly Father.

This is leading souls away from God and their souls being saved.

Therefore many souls as Catholics and Christians we are accountable for on the last day more so us Christians after having received Jesus God and The Holy Spirit into our hearts and to evangelise thru Jesus God The Holy Spirit and Mother Mary of Whom is and has for centuries been drawing and leading hearts and souls back to Jesus. You are in fact going against Our Heavenly Mother with Holy Spirit after Our Heavenly Queen of Heaven led your heart and soul back to Jesus in the first place

I will tomorrow pray for Holy Reparation of Jesus Sacred Heart and Mother Mary's Holy Immaculate Heart on behalf of your heart and soul

Our Mother is our real Holy Heavenly Mother of God Himself start confessing from your heart in sorrow to Jesus for your soul and I am saying this in our Lord Jesus righteousness

 

[Galilee63]

I won't be posting here on this thread again

 

[BobRyan]

Given you are blasphemous about our Heavenly Mother why would I in Jesus Righteousness respond to your question!

What did I say blasphemous? I simply ask for facts.

if you cannot comprehend Gods Holy Word correctly through Holy Spirit from God Himself about Gods most Precious Holy Gifted and Blessed Daughter and Mother then I cannot help you.

You are not quoting God's Holy Word so far -- if you start doing that then we can have a conversation based on God's Holy Word.

I for one, think that would be a nice change.

Any person whom goes against Our Heavenly Holy Mother of God Himself is going against Jesus God and Holy Spirit period.

How is sticking with the Bible and also historic fact going against Mary?? Please explain.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Standing Up]

I guess you are an authority on this.

I know what JoD wrote. He is wrong. It simply did not and could not happen this way.

"... and from her holy and most pure blood He formed flesh animated with the spirit of reason and thought, ..."
NPNF2-09. Hilary of Poitiers, John of Damascus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

I also know EO cannot admit this.

 

[Standing Up]

Except that it would not be our flesh but a parallel flesh with no connection to our own. If God could do what you propose, don't you think He would have? Why go to all the trouble of finding a suitable virgin then going through all the difficulty of growing in her womb, being born and nursed, getting nappies changed etc. Why not just do what He did with Adam?
Unless, contrary to what you suggest, it was necessary for the purpose of our salvation that Christ actually be born of the same flesh that we all are.

Quite right that Christ had our, was born of, same flesh.

The flip side is why would someone believe it was the same blood that was spilled? Oh wait, the old pious thought who knew no better, it wasn't, we thus have to make a doctrine to have an immaculate blood source.

"How much more [than "common blood" of animals] shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Heb. 9:13

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb. 2:14
He took part similarly, but it wasn't Mary's blood that was sacrificed for us.

 

[Phil 1:21]

And this is precisely why I shy away from churches that do not teach the Word of God. You end up with all kinds of "interesting" stuff.

 

[prodromos]

I know what JoD wrote. He is wrong. It simply did not and could not happen this way.

"... and from her holy and most pure blood He formed flesh animated with the spirit of reason and thought, ..."
NPNF2-09. Hilary of Poitiers, John of Damascus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

I also know EO cannot admit this.

You misinterpret St John of Damascus.

 

[prodromos]

Quite right that Christ had our, was born of, same flesh.

The flip side is why would someone believe it was the same blood that was spilled?

No one is saying that. You are taking a metaphor literally.

Oh wait, the old pious thought who knew no better, it wasn't, we thus have to make a doctrine to have an immaculate blood source.

You have a lot to learn about what the Orthodox Church teaches regarding the incarnation.

"How much more [than "common blood" of animals] shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Heb. 9:13

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb. 2:14
He took part similarly, but it wasn't Mary's blood that was sacrificed for us.

No where do Orthodox teach that Jesus had Mary's blood running through His veins.

 

[prodromos]

And this is precisely why I shy away from churches that do not teach the Word of God. You end up with all kinds of "interesting" stuff.

You get that regardless. Every Church has their own particular interpretations of Scripture passages. How do you judge what is the correct interpretation of Scripture?

 

[Phil 1:21]

You get that regardless. Every Church has their own particular interpretations of Scripture passages. How do you judge what is the correct interpretation of Scripture?

Which scripture was interpreted to yield the assumption of Mary?

 

[prodromos]

Which scripture was interpreted to yield the assumption of Mary?

Its a historical event which was not recorded in Scripture. We have relics of all the Apostles but nothing of Mary.