Immaculate Conception?

[miknik5]

dup post

 

[2Timothy2:15]

No. But the truth is that THE LIGHT has come into the world

And that is both the verdict and the judgement

Christ said if I had not come, they would have no sin (John 15)

But He did and All need the RIGHT COVERING (Matthew 22) for their sins

The OP posed the question how can Jesus be sinless if he was born of a sinful woman. That is the context.

 

[Bud A]

Jesus is fully man, and fully God.

I believe it is true that: the Holy Spirit's seed and Mary's seed produced Jesus?

For Jesus to be sinless, would Mary need to be either:
a) Saved and or Filled with the Holy Spirit
b) Sinless

I can't see, God in the flesh could be conceived if Mary was a sinner.

I cannot see or in any wise understand many many things concerning the Creations of God, or His Great Workings, but I do not believe it meet and proper from that lack of understanding, to invest the Scriptures with thoughts that might cross my mind or the mind of any other human creation, as truths of God that are not clearly set forth in God's Word, The Holy Christian Bible, which I believe to be complete and infallible. My faith is that God told us all and every bit of truth we Christians have need to know and testify to on His behalf to a lost world for salvation from sin which is the doings of all humans male and female, and in no wise attributable to God.

Jesus was born into this world as the Son of Man and tempted in all ways like a man but He never sinned. That perfection was all of Jesus who is God and was with God in the beginning, but somehow was also the Son of Man. He had to be tempted as we are, to be the Son of Man, and be our perfect sacrifice, completely and eternally, for our sin. It strikes me that this just goes along with Mary not being sinless, but the only thing I can testify to as a surety is that all have sinned save the Son of Man who was tempted as all men, but did not yield to any of those temptations or in any other way Sin against God.

That coincides with my thought that Mary like every other woman in the Bible, or who has ever lived or taken the breath of air, is just the same as every other human creation and born in and into sin, and according to the whole of Scripture was a sinner just like every other one of God's human creations. Maybe that is not the fact as the Scriptures are just silent on that.

God Bless you, Bud A

 

[miknik5]

The OP posed the question how can Jesus be sinless if he was born of a sinful woman. That is the context.

Yea I know. He also seems to not believe that the sin of Adam and Eve was passed onto all men

 

[JohnOfWoodGreen]

Our problem as scientists is that we do not translate science into scriptural terms before trying to apply it. The language of scripture is that a person's identity comes through their father, thus we read that "Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Melchizedek met him". Thus the scriptural language of fertilization is that the egg fertilizes the sperm , NOT the other way round, and "seed" refers to both unfertilized and fertilized sperm - God didn't create Greek to confuse us about THIS ("Sperma" means both fertilized and unfertilized).
Since identity and the sinful nature come though the father, the Seed Of The Woman is free from inherited sin, so it is only the Son of God that was conceived immaculately, not His mother in addition.
Look, I know that Melchizedek, by being listed without father and without mother, is made like unto the Son of God, Who abideth eternally. But at the time of Melchizedek, the Son of God was indeed without mother. And insisting that none of his genetic material came from Mary would not make Him without mother NOW - He was still born of her.

 

[Colter]

So, you'd agree--I am assuming, that Mary as "the Immaculate Conception" is true. It's just that all of us are immaculately conceived, so what's the point in making a big deal of it in Mary's case? Is that about right?

Well, I believe that the Son of God miraculously became the person of Mary's baby at conception. I think he looked like Joseph. Virgin birth stories were common in the Pagan or Gentile religions.

 

[Colter]

People seem to need Mary to be sinless for their own ideology. I've never thought of Mary to be perfect.

 

[derGroßmütige]

The blessed mother confirmed it when she appeared to St. Bernadette. She said "I am the immaculate conception."
“I Am the Immaculate Conception”, Our Lady told St. Bernadette

That is not scripture. If you're just going to go off the random words of a peasant girl and base an entire theology around it, that's not in line with scripture and can lead you down the path of false prophets, which Jesus warned MANY false prophets will arise, and that even Christians would be tricked by them:

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect" - Matthew 24:24

And in this case it's a miracle witnessed by one peasant girl. And how convenient it is that for 1,000 years Mary never appeared to and said "I AM THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" to anyone until AFTER the Roman Church came up with the theology. Also, that is bizarre wording. She is Mary, is she not? Why is she using blasphemous rhetoric ("I am" is God), and she is NOT the "conception", she is Mary (unless of course it was a Demon appearing to this peasant girl to create false prophecy and deceive the faithful as Jesus prophesied, notice it didn't identify as Mary OR no one appeared to her and she is an attention-seeking peasant girl whose own siblings said that they had seen nothing, I've had a sibling who had similar visions of things and it was a mental disorder, too).

 

[kepha31]

Gen. 2:17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God's punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women's pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin, and this includes babies as well. This is why the Catholic Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years.

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam's sin from the moment of our conception. This is why babies need baptism – to wash away the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin. This sin affects all people, men and women, babies and adults. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, we have the sacrament of baptism to wash away the sin that came through Adam.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - the judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all. This means all have inherited the sin of Adam, and all must be washed clean of this sin in the waters of baptism.

Rom. 5:19 - by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself. Through this sacrifice, God has re-opened the doors to heaven, and through baptism, we are once again made children of God.

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.
scripturecatholic

 

[miknik5]

Gen. 2:17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God's punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women's pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin, and this includes babies as well. This is why the Catholic Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years.

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam's sin from the moment of our conception. This is why babies need baptism – to wash away the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin. This sin affects all people, men and women, babies and adults. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, we have the sacrament of baptism to wash away the sin that came through Adam.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - the judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all. This means all have inherited the sin of Adam, and all must be washed clean of this sin in the waters of baptism.

Rom. 5:19 - by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself. Through this sacrifice, God has re-opened the doors to heaven, and through baptism, we are once again made children of God.

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.
scripturecatholic

Great post and reminder how we all have fallen short of the HOLY GLORY of GOD and how all were in need of a SAVIOR who could open THE WAY back through the TRUE VEIL...HIS BODY

 

[miknik5]

Well, I believe that the Son of God miraculously became the person of Mary's baby at conception. I think he looked like Joseph. Virgin birth stories were common in the Pagan or Gentile religions.

Why would HE have to look like Joseph?
Why is this a necessary comment?

"Virgin birth stories" were common in pagan religions because Satan also knew THE TRUTH and had no problem
supplying half the truth to superstitious men who knew of god but did not KNOW GOD

therefore, these men were willing to entertain the voices of lying spirits who distorted and provided portions of THE TRUTH

And these men believed lies over THE TRUTH

The same thing happens today


Remember GOD was before all these myths which was simply the result of Satan who taught the sons of men how to practice divination

Unfortunately these men did not realize they were getting their false information from the "wrong father"

 

[Colter]

Death was specific to Adam and Eve as the result of their sin. The two incarnate celestials lost their immortality status, they could no longer partake of the tree of life and live on indefinatealy.

 

[frettr00]

That is not scripture. If you're just going to go off the random words of a peasant girl and base an entire theology around it, that's not in line with scripture and can lead you down the path of false prophets, which Jesus warned MANY false prophets will arise, and that even Christians would be tricked by them:

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect" - Matthew 24:24

And in this case it's a miracle witnessed by one peasant girl. And how convenient it is that for 1,000 years Mary never appeared to and said "I AM THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" to anyone until AFTER the Roman Church came up with the theology. Also, that is bizarre wording. She is Mary, is she not? Why is she using blasphemous rhetoric ("I am" is God), and she is NOT the "conception", she is Mary (unless of course it was a Demon appearing to this peasant girl to create false prophecy and deceive the faithful as Jesus prophesied, notice it didn't identify as Mary OR no one appeared to her and she is an attention-seeking peasant girl whose own siblings said that they had seen nothing, I've had a sibling who had similar visions of things and it was a mental disorder, too).

There is truth revealed outside of the Bible and some of it is through private revelation like this. This was an apparition the Catholic church approved as authentic after undergoing investigation, just like any other claimed apparition. Some of them are condemned as false as well. Whether or not she's a peasant is irrelevant, God doesn't care about economic status. If you see apparitions it doesn't mean you're mentally ill either; that's insulting and close minded.

 

[miknik5]

Death was specific to Adam and Eve as the result of their sin. The two incarnate celestials lost their immortality status, they could no longer partake of the tree of life and live on indefinatealy.

Can you advise on how you found a WAY back in to partake of THE TREE of LIFE

 

[Kutte]

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naïve creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a world where there was real good and evil.

In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

Great post JackRT,

Since I fully agree I am facing the problem of having nothing to add. Oh well... We need problems to overcome now and then and while doing so learn about true happiness.
God bless

 

[derGroßmütige]

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?

The "who" here is an obvious referral to no man can do this. God indeed can bring a clean thing out of the unclean, that's the whole point of grace, no? Mary was "full of grace" which includes forgiveness (indeed for Mary herself, who was a human sinner in need of a savior which she herself says "my savior" in scripture).


Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Let's be honest here, most people conceive in sinful ways. No one can control their thoughts perfectly and Christ himself points out that thoughts can be sins. Mary did not engage in the process of conception, she had a Virgin birth, so this verse does not even apply or rather makes the point better that it doesn't matter if Mary was sinless or sinful since there was no procreation in the traditional way.

She is just the vessel, the womb is just like a big empty bowl that was filled, it's even questionable if she contributed any DNA to Christ, I think she did not, because that would imply that God took Mary's egg for the process and ignores that God conceived the child. If Mary was allowed half of the process, why is there any need for God to conceive the child and not for it to be born of man? Why can't there be an immaculate man and woman, who then birth the child? That's where you get into ridiculous theology. The entire child was conceived by God, I do not think He waited for her egg cycle and implanted it that way, but rather created the entirety and Mary probably did not contribute DNA.



Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin. This sin affects all people, men and women, babies and adults. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, we have the sacrament of baptism to wash away the sin that came through Adam.

- Umm yeah, death affects us all. That's what it's saying. Not that you have a responsibility or need to repent of Adam's sin.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin.
- you are confused on this one, death is literally death. Only Jesus did not "die" but rather is the "new Adam" as He did not die and now all of us do not truly die but live on thanks to Christ.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.

And with this verse you just destroyed your entire argument. ALL WERE DEAD through sin, UNTIL Christ saved us. That includes Mary who herself was in need of "my savior" as she said.

 

[Colter]

Can you advise on how you found a WAY back in to partake of THE TREE of LIFE

I never said I ate from the tree of life, that's silly. Only Adam and Eve could do that. After they defaulted on their mission they lost the use of the tree that allowed them to sustain their immortality.

 

[miknik5]

I never said I ate from the tree of life, that's silly. Only Adam and Eve could do that. After they defaulted on their mission they lost the use of the tree that allowed them to sustain their immortality.

I never said you did.
I asked you if you have discovered THE WAY...to...eat...and LIVE FOREVER

 

[Hank77]

I agree, I just am getting stuck on the Holy Spirit (not sure what word you would use here, making a seed/impregnating) a sinful women.

My natural view would be Holy must be mixed with Holy, not Holy with a sinner

Do we understand all the ways of God?
Here is what the angel said to Mary about God favoring her and another scripture about God making you favored.
This Greek word is only used twice in the NT.

KJV
Luk 1:28 AndG2532 theG3588 angelG32 came inG1525 untoG4314 her,G846 and said,G2036 Hail,G5463 thou that art highly favoured,G5487 theG3588 LordG2962 is withG3326 thee:G4675 blessedG2127 art thouG4771 amongG1722 women.G1135

Eph 1:6 ToG1519 the praiseG1868 of the gloryG1391 of hisG848 grace,G5485 whereinG1722 G3739 he hath made us acceptedG5487 G2248 inG1722 theG3588 beloved.G25

 

[Colter]

I never said you did.
I asked you if you have discovered THE WAY...to...eat...and LIVE FOREVER

I'm already saved and will live on forever. The "tree of life" was a real tree.

Death and or translation is normal. It's been on the earth since life was first created.