Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[Hentenza]

ME too. So, what's next. I say we take a beer break and we an talk politics or something.

So see we can agree on something.

 

[Kepha]

ME too. So, what's next. I say we take a beer break and we an talk politics or something.

I say I go watch Period number 3 of the Hockey game and think about drinking a Root Beer lol.

Go Canucks Go!!!

 

[IamAdopted]

We are not talking about the Apostles. I was talking about you. Scripture doesnt talk so it's all up to you on how it is interpretated. You need to study the lanugage and culture of the time to even try and get a grasp of what it is trying to say in many verses. God left this with people who couldnt even read let alone study another language they never even heard of? Don't thinks so.

I would love to do a little test actually. We put a Priest with someone who knows nothing about Christianity and give them a few months to study.

We then take a similar man who is likewise ignorant but eager to learn about Christianity and give him a Bible to read for say 1 year.

I'm thinking this man the Priest was in charge over will have a firm grasp on what we believe for the most part. Yet the other fellow with the Bible will not even know Jesus was God. And I most certainly would doubt He would even grasp the concept of a Holy Trinity. I bet we could do this a thousand times over with different men and the Bible and they still wouldnt come to a few basic Dogmas of Christianity.

The Bible is a dangerous tool when studied alone without a teacher.

19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

That's an awful lot of ground to cover for the Apostles alone before they died wouldnt you think? It's obvious they needed help in achieving this.

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

And it appears Jesus was going to be with them till the end of the world as well and again, it is obvious since the Apostles would die, he wasnt meaning them but their successors.

Has Jesus left any of His People. What did they preach? Christ in you the Hope of Glory. If Christ be in us then we are new creations in Christ. For we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore Christ is with us even until the end of the age. So all of us are abassadors of Christ. We are to take His message to the whole world. Any opportunity we have to share Christ we should be doing. When a person opens the bible up and is seeking for truth God is able to bring this truth out through the scriptures. God can interpret His own word for He is the author. There is a difference between head knowledge and Heart knowledge. God is much greater than any man and can show things in His word that even man cannot know. Unless it is revealed to Him from the Father. We see this as truth in Peter.

 

[racer]

I think you know deep down that it isnt so clear after all my friend.

To simply be able to argue that Scripture does not "deny" something does not make it Scriptural. If it's not mentioned in Scripture or discussed, it is not Scriptural. It may be a historical fact, but not a Scriptural fact . . . .

 

[Kepha]

Has Jesus left any of His People. What did they preach? Christ in you the Hope of Glory. If Christ be in us then we are new creations in Christ.

It's all context. Jesus was talking to this group specifically. It was this group He breathed on. This group He gave the Power of Forgiving or Retaining sins and likewise within the same context of talking to this group, He continued to say that he would be with them till the end of the earth.

For we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore Christ is with us even until the end of the age.

This is a separate matter all together. Are you also going to claim Jesus was not talking to Peter only when he gave Him the Keys to Heaven because your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? Jesus was talking to a certain person or persons and to always claim it off as saying it referred to all of us, totally corrupts what He was really trying to say.

So all of us are abassadors of Christ. We are to take His message to the whole world. Any opportunity we have to share Christ we should be doing.

A message that you guys admit to getting it wrong at times? Christ never wanted Heresey preached and to leave it up to a group of believers all thinking they are being led by this Spirit, while reading the Scriptures bringing forth conflicting doctrines with one another only adds to the confusion to the ones you are preacing to.

Who out of all you guys actually know you have the proper doctrine Christ gave? If you think this then you are infallible through the Spirit. There is no other way around it. Christ definitely wanted us to preach His Doctrine. That is without a doubt.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.

He wants one Flock with One Shepherd leading them.

16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

John 17: 20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;
21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

The many splinter groups you have become by your sola Scripture doctrine is not what God intended.

Luke 11:17......Every kingdom divided against itself, shall be brought to desolation, and house upon house shall fall.

Christ left us a Church. One that is very visible and speaks with one voice on Doctrine.

Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid.

 

[Kepha]

To simply be able to argue that Scripture does not "deny" something does not make it Scriptural. If it's not mentioned in Scripture or discussed, it is not Scriptural. It may be a historical fact, but not a Scriptural fact . . . .

It's odd how you say this only to me and not the non Catholics since we arent Bible believers alone and if you knew that, you would likewise know we don't have this special need to read something explicit from Scriptures to believe. It is not us who demand to see things in Scriptures explicity to get our Doctrines except only when we are asked to prove it that way ourselves. So obviously, to be fair, we want explicit proof back as to play by these same rules that have been thrown at us. Maybe you should have quoted them first before you quoted me don't you think.

 

[racer]

It's odd how you say this only to me and not the non Catholics since we arent Bible believers alone and if you knew that, you would likewise know we don't have this special need to read something explicit from Scriptures to believe.

I do know what you believe. I, also, know that according to your faith, your doctrines don't have to be "biblically based," so long as they are not contra-biblical. My point was not to show that this doctrine was not biblically based, therefore was not a true and legitimate doctrine according to your faith. You misconstrued my point. IOWs, I was not saying that since you can not establish this doctrine/dogma as scriptural or biblical, therefore it is sufficiently disproved and debunked. My stance is simply that it's questionable. I don't argue either way--maybe she was maybe she wasn't

It is not us who demand to see things in Scriptures explicity to get our Doctrines except only when we are asked to prove it that way ourselves. So obviously, to be fair, we want explicit proof back as to play by these same rules that have been thrown at us. Maybe you should have quoted them first before you quoted me don't you think.

Maybe you should learn a little about someone before you decide what they may or may not know . . . .

 

[IamAdopted]

It's all context. Jesus was talking to this group specifically. It was this group He breathed on. This group He gave the Power of Forgiving or Retaining sins and likewise within the same context of talking to this group, He continued to say that he would be with them till the end of the earth.

You would need to dig deeper into scripture to find out that when Jesus gave them this authority about sin is much different that how you through your church read it. Do a deep greek study on what Jesus said there. I will not argue with you about scripture because in your eyes they are dead words on paper. I will Post scripture for it is the word of God. I will let scripture speak for itself for It is alive and active.

Who out of all you guys actually know you have the proper doctrine Christ gave? If you think this then you are infallible through the Spirit. There is no other way around it. Christ definitely wanted us to preach His Doctrine. That is without a doubt.

Who says we are infallable. We can say that the Holy Spirit is . For He is our teacher. Peter could not even know that Jesus was the Christ without the Father revealing this to Him. We are to preach the Gospel. The Good news. That Jesus came and died for our sins and rose again and now is seated on the right hand of the Father. And that believing in Him you will have eternal Life. Nothing about Mary in those words.

He wants one Flock with One Shepherd leading them.

And this one shepherd would be Jesus not the Pope. For He alone is the great shepherd. We have Pastors That teach the word of God as The bible instructs us to have.

 

[ScottBot]

You would need to dig deeper into scripture to find out that when Jesus gave them this authority about sin is much different that how you through your church read it. Do a deep greek study on what Jesus said there. I will not argue with you about scripture because in your eyes they are dead words on paper. I will Post scripture for it is the word of God. I will let scripture speak for itself for It is alive and active. Who says we are infallable. We can say that the Holy Spirit is . For He is our teacher. Peter could not even know that Jesus was the Christ without the Father revealing this to Him. We are to preach the Gospel. The Good news. That Jesus came and died for our sins and rose again and now is seated on the right hand of the Father. And that believing in Him you will have eternal Life. Nothing about Mary in those words. And this one shepherd would be Jesus not the Pope. For He alone is the great shepherd. We have Pastors That teach the word of God as The bible instructs us to have.

Then why did Jesus tell Peter to feed and tend His sheep three times? He was instilling Peter as the vicarial shepherd.

 

[IamAdopted]

Then why did Jesus tell Peter to feed and tend His sheep three times? He was instilling Peter as the vicarial shepherd.

This you assume. We also see Paul feeding sheep. We also see Timothy feeding Sheep. Jesus said that He had other sheep. This would be the gentiles. Who God sent Paul to the gentiles. My Pastor Feeds sheep. All Pastors feed sheep.

10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

We see It is Jesus who gives these gifts. It is not handed down. He is alive today still calling People.

 

[ScottBot]

This you assume. We also see Paul feeding sheep. We also see Timothy feeding Sheep. Jesus said that He had other sheep. This would be the gentiles. Who God sent Paul to the gentiles. My Pastor Feeds sheep. All Pastors feed sheep. We see It is Jesus who gives these gifts. It is not handed down. He is alive today still calling People.

All of the sheep belong to Jesus. Jesus only gives the duty of feeding His sheep to one Apostle. That Apostle is Peter.

 

[IamAdopted]

All of the sheep belong to Jesus. Jesus only gives the duty of feeding His sheep to one Apostle. That Apostle is Peter.

There is a reason as to why Peter was asked three times if He loved Jesus. For it was Peter who denied Jesus three times. Paul was to also preach the Gospel. Called by God to do this. We see more of His writings and feeding the sheep than we do Peters. They all preach the same. Timothy. Titus ,Paul, Peter, Jude, John, They all feed Gods sheep. They are the Apostles. with a capitol A. We see in scripture also with the scripture I gave you that the callings and gifts are from the Lord and not handed down.

 

[ScottBot]

There is a reason as to why Peter was asked three times if He loved Jesus. For it was Peter who denied Jesus three times. Paul was to also preach the Gospel. Called by God to do this. We see more of His writings and feeding the sheep than we do Peters. They all preach the same. Timothy. Titus ,Paul, Peter, Jude, John, They all feed Gods sheep. They are the Apostles. with a capitol A. We see in scripture also with the scripture I gave you that the callings and gifts are from the Lord and not handed down.

Unless it if from the Lord that they are handed down. It is very evident from Scripture that the office of Bishop, Presbyter (Elder, or Priest), and Deacon are handed down from the Apostles, and so on and so forth.

Of course all of the Apostles preached. They were commanded to. But only Peter had the special office of "oversight". That is apparent in the Scriptures to, if you look at them all in context.

 

[Rick Otto]

he wanted to circumcise 'em!

 

[ScottBot]

he wanted to circumcise 'em!

What's your point? I am sure that it relates somehow.

 

[Rick Otto]

the working out of our salvation, including nourishing ourselves on the written word. Peter was not only overseeing, he was over reaching. 'Maverick' apostle Paul had to publicly rebuke the first Pope & correct him. It kinda takes the wind out of all the 'in cathedra' definitions and any possible grandiose assumptions of power on anyone's part.

But you only see that in the scriptures, "if you look at them all in context".

 

[IamAdopted]

Unless it if from the Lord that they are handed down. It is very evident from Scripture that the office of Bishop, Presbyter (Elder, or Priest), and Deacon are handed down from the Apostles, and so on and so forth.

Of course all of the Apostles preached. They were commanded to. But only Peter had the special office of "oversight". That is apparent in the Scriptures to, if you look at them all in context.

This is your assumption on the Matter. Lets look at What Jesus is saying to Peter. Jesus asked Peter Do you agapao Me. Peter says Yes Lord I phileo you. Then Bosco My Sheep. ( to feed
a) portraying the duty of a Christian teacher to promote in every way the spiritual welfare of the members of the church) He said to Him a second time. Peter do you agapao me. Peter answered a second time. Yes
Lord you know I phileo you. Then poimaino (

1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
a) to rule, govern
1) of rulers
2) to furnish pasture for food
3) to nourish
4) to cherish one's body, to serve the body 5) to supply the requisites for the soul's need) my sheep.
Jesus for the third time asked Peter phileo thou Me?
Peter once again answers yes He phileo Him stating that Jesus knows all things. Then Jesus says
bosko (to feed
a) portraying the duty of a Christian teacher to promote) in every way the spiritual welfare of the members of the church
my sheep.

 

[Rick Otto]

Peter had to be told 3 times what they were all effectively told to do, becasuse he was so thick-headed, not because he was being appointed "the only one" of anything.

 

[ScottBot]

the working out of our salvation, including nourishing ourselves on the written word. Peter was not only overseeing, he was over reaching. 'Maverick' apostle Paul had to publicly rebuke the first Pope & correct him. It kinda takes the wind out of all the 'in cathedra' definitions and any possible grandiose assumptions of power on anyone's part.

But you only see that in the scriptures, "if you look at them all in context".

Only if you build a strawman, call it ex cathedra, then show everyone who already agrees with you how preposterous it is.

 

[ScottBot]

Peter had to be told 3 times what they were all effectively told to do, becasuse he was so thick-headed, not because he was being appointed "the only one" of anything.

Where is that in Scripture, since it is the end all be all explainer of everything?