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Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

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IamAdopted

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Okay, so the priestly action of Our Lord, could be preformed....His blood had to be shed. The Romans killed Jesus, He didn't kill Himself....so it was His priestly action, as the High Priest, in the offering of His blood in atonement for our sins...therefore, our redemption.
Jesus layed down His life for His Sheep. No one could have taken His life from Him if He had not layed it down. He repeatedly tells us this.
 
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IamAdopted

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23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
We see that Christ is in Heaven as our High Priest. It is His shed blood that is for the Remission of sins. Now Christ sits at the right hand side of the Father as our High Priest. For His shed blood allows us as His followers to come into the Holy of Holies because When Christ died the veil was torn. We all now as His people are called a royal priesthood. :)
 
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PassthePeace1

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Jesus layed down His life for His Sheep. No one could have taken His life from Him if He had not layed it down. He repeatedly tells us this.

Of course, He willing submitted to death....but the Romans killed Him, He didn't kill Himself. In His office as High Priest, He offered up His sacrifice to God, on our behalf....Inregards to our redemption, Jesus's offices (or actions) as both High Priest and Paschal Lamb, can't be separated....both actions, plays apart in our redemption.
 
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Kepha

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And where do you get this from that all never means all.


Mt 3:5-6: "Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins."

Were 'ALL' of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Rom 11:26, "ALL Israel shall be saved."

We know that 'ALL' in Israel will not be saved.

Rom 15:14, "...you yourselves are full of love, filled with 'ALL' knowledge..."

The only person filled with 'ALL' knowledge is GOD Himself unless there's another God I don't know about. :sorry:

Same as when they say the whole world in Scripture. It doesn't have to mean it in the literal sense. Just like the word all. It could mean allot or many.

John 12:19, "The entire world has gone after him!"

Did everyone in the entire world really go after Jesus? I'm thinking no.

So you see, when it says...."For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God."....it doesn't necessarily mean all as in every single person that lived or will live hence that verse cannot be used against the Immaculate Conception since it proves nothing. It is only your assuming that it includes the Blessed Mother Mary but that isn't enough.
 
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IamAdopted

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Mt 3:5-6: "Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins."

Were 'ALL' of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Rom 11:26, "ALL Israel shall be saved."

We know that 'ALL' in Israel will not be saved.

Rom 15:14, "...you yourselves are full of love, filled with 'ALL' knowledge..."

The only person filled with 'ALL' knowledge is GOD Himself unless there's another God I don't know about. :sorry:

Same as when they say the whole world in Scripture. It doesn't have to mean it in the literal sense. Just like the word all. It could mean allot or many.

John 12:19, "The entire world has gone after him!"

Did everyone in the entire world really go after Jesus? I'm thinking no.

So you see, when it says...."For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God."....it doesn't necessarily mean all as in every single person that lived or will live hence that verse cannot be used against the Immaculate Conception since it proves nothing. It is only your assuming that it includes the Blessed Mother Mary but that isn't enough.
Actually it is enough. For we take Gods word as written as told to do. No where in all scripture is it written about Mary being conceived any different than any other Human being. Only Christ is.
4John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey. 5People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
You have misread this scripture. He did not say in there all went out. He said people went out to Him from. When you look at the all of Isreal you need to go back and read what God said of Isreal. To those who have not bowed their knee to baal. These are the true Isrealites.
19So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"
This was the Pharasee's talking. We know how honost they were. :) This is why they were upset if even one went after Jesus. It dangered their false religion. So when it says all have sinned this is exactly what it means. Because it says it in more than one place. In Galatians we read that all are prisoner of sin. Mary being born any other way than all men everywhere except for Christ is an assumption that cannot be backed by scripture.
 
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sunlover1

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So you see, when it says...."For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God."....it doesn't necessarily mean all as in every single person that lived or will live hence that verse cannot be used against the Immaculate Conception since it proves nothing. It is only your assuming that it includes the Blessed Mother Mary but that isn't enough.
Fair enough and also if it says
she was 'full of grace' we won't
assume (for the same reasons)
that it means she never sinned.

:thumbsup:
 
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ScottBot

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Fair enough and also if it says
she was 'full of grace' we won't
assume (for the same reasons)
that it means she never sinned.

:thumbsup:
She never sinned...willfully. But, because of Adam, she still needed a savior.
 
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IamAdopted

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She never sinned...willfully. But, because of Adam, she still needed a savior.
How can one born of sin not sin? For it is Christ in us that gives us the power not to sin. For we have to be born again to have Christ in us. Even Paul with Christ in Him struggled with this. As every believer does. :)
 
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ScottBot

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How can one born of sin not sin? For it is Christ in us that gives us the power not to sin. For we have to be born again to have Christ in us. Even Paul with Christ in Him struggled with this. As every believer does. :)
Because she was filled with grace, thus God protected her from it.
 
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Iollain

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Mt 3:5-6: "Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins."

Were 'ALL' of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Rom 11:26, "ALL Israel shall be saved."

We know that 'ALL' in Israel will not be saved.

Rom 15:14, "...you yourselves are full of love, filled with 'ALL' knowledge..."

The only person filled with 'ALL' knowledge is GOD Himself unless there's another God I don't know about. :sorry:

Same as when they say the whole world in Scripture. It doesn't have to mean it in the literal sense. Just like the word all. It could mean allot or many.

John 12:19, "The entire world has gone after him!"

Did everyone in the entire world really go after Jesus? I'm thinking no.

So you see, when it says...."For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God."....it doesn't necessarily mean all as in every single person that lived or will live hence that verse cannot be used against the Immaculate Conception since it proves nothing. It is only your assuming that it includes the Blessed Mother Mary but that isn't enough.

All Isreal are and will be saved, God knows His people and through foreknowledge He knows who they are, and all of them are saved indeed.
 
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ScottBot

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I don't think you can use that one and be RC, that is an EO view to say she never broke any of the 613 commandments wilfully.
Yes, it is an orthodox view of Mary, which is why the Catholics hold it.
 
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IamAdopted

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Because she was filled with grace, thus God protected her from it.
says who? I don't see that written in scripture. I see where all sin and fall short of the Glory of God. I see where Paul says that everyone born is a slave to sin. That this is Why Christ had to come to set the captives free.
 
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Renton405

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I do not see full of grace.. Highly favored one blessed among women not above women..

Actually that is not the literal rendition..

"Full of grace" in Greek is "Kejaritómene", used twice in the Gospels, for Jesus and for Mary.

For Mary, some bibles translate "Keratomene" as "you who are highly favored!" which is nice again, but not good enough.

It might be literally rendered, full of favour and grace, and he shows immediately after, laying out plainly unto us, what that favour is in that he says, The Lord is with thee.

Should Luke 1:28 Read "Grace" or "Highly favored"



"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, FULL OF GRACE, the LORD IS WITH THEE..."(Luke 1:28)

The Annotation for Luke 1:28 in the 1582 Catholic Rheims Translation of the Bible in to English says:" 28Full of grace) Note the excellence prerogatives of our B. Lady, and abhor those Heretics which make her no better than other vulgar woman, and therefor to take from her fullness of grace, they say here, Hail freely beloved, contraire to all significations of the Greek word, which is at the left, endued with Grace, as S. Paul useth it Eph. I. by S. Chrysostoms interpretation : or rather Full of grace, as-both* Greek and Latin fathers have always here understood it, and the Latin's also read it, namely S. Ambrose thus, Well is she only called full of grace, who only obtained grace which no other woman deserved, to be replenished with the author of grace. And if they did as well know the nature of these Greek words, as they would seem very skillful, they might easily observe that they signify fullness, as when them selves translate the like word (Luc. 16,20) full of force. Beza, Ulcerous."

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/RheimsLK_28_Ann.jpg
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The Above scan is the Annotations for Luke Chapter I, of the 1582 Rheims New Testament


The translation "Full of Grace" instead of "Highly Favored" or "freely beloved" is far more accurate to the Greek. The Ancient Syriac, Arabic and Latin versions bare the truth of this out. The translation "Full of Grace" was also approved by the early Christian fathers.
This Scan is from The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa's. It is a translation of the ancient Eastern Aramaic Version of the Scriptures called the "Peshitta" . As we can the see third century Aramaic supports "Full of Grace" as the correct meaning of the passage.


St. Luke wrote kecharitomene [a perfect passive participle of the verb charitoo]. In secular Greek charis meant charm, that which attracts favor. It was used to translate Old Testament Hebrew hen which first meant a favorable attitude of God to us, then the expression of that favor, then what He gives as a

result of that favor. namely hokmah or beraka, wisdom or blessing. (Oo verbs means to put someone in the state expressed by the root, which here is charis. ) The word was not used broadly like NT charis which came to mean any gift from God to us. The net result was that charis could mean either favor or grace.

But now, a thing often overlooked: if God merely sat there and gave nothing but a smile, favor, then the human would do the good by his own power - which would be Pelagianism. So when we translate favor, we must keep this in mind, and usually would do better to translate grace. So then charitoo will mean to put into grace.
Luke 1:28 in the 1611 King James Version has in the Margin notes "Much Graced" [Click here to see the scan of the full page]. This Scan is taken from the Thomas Nelson reprint of the 1611 King James Version of the Bible.


Further, in English we may use a noun to mark a person as the ultimate in his class. Kecharitomene is used here as her personal name. So just as Mr. Tennis is the ultimate in the category of tennis. --therefore she would be "Miss Grace", much the same as full of grace.

The early Church father St. Jerome [who the translators of the 1611 King James Version called " a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him,".(From the Translators' Preface to the 1611 KJV)] translated "kecharitomene" as "gratiae plena" meaning 'full of grace which thou hast received" when creating The Vulgate. The Rheims new Testament [1582] has "Full of Grace". Many of the early Protestant versions also accepted "Grace" to be the proper translation.
This Beautiful picture of the Annunciation of the Angle Gabriel to the blessed Virgin Mary, graced the Title page of the New Testament in the 1717 Printing of the KJV. Click here to see the full Scan. This leaf is part of Part of my personal collection.


Wyclif's Version [1380] the verse says "Full of Grace"

Tyndale's Version [1534] the verse says "Full of Grace"

Cranmer's Version [1539] the verse says "Full of Grace"

Geneva [1599] says in the Margin Notes "might be rendered, 'full of favour and grace, " [ The Link is to a Scan from a 1608 Printing of the Geneva Bible]

Authorized Version or KJV [1611] says in the Margin notes "Much Graced"

Polyglott Bible [1838] says in the Margin notes "or Much Graced"

Revised Version [1885] says in the Margin Notes: "Endowed with Grace".

American Standard Version [1901] says in the Margin Notes: "or Endowed with Grace".

Scofield Edition [1909, revised in 1914] says in the Margin Notes "or Endued with Grace"

New Standard Reference Bible [1934] says in the Margin notes "Much Graced"

The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa's [1957] the verse says "peace be to you, O full of grace"

The Amplified [1958] in the verse (In brackets) "endowed with grace" with a foot note that says "literal translation"

A literal Translation by Jay P. Green [1985] the verse says "And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace!..."

The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by Jay P. Green [2nd edition 1985] the verse says "...Hail, one receiving grace!...

The Word Pictures in the New Testament, by the renowned Protestant Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, expounds Luke 1:28 as follows:

"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of chartoo and means endowed with grace ("charis"), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; (Plummer).[ Robertson, Archibald T., Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, 6 volumes, vol. 2, p.13]

It is certain that kecharitomene is directly concerned with the idea of "grace," since, as Vine noted, it is derived from the root word charis, whose literal meaning is "grace. The word "Charis" is translated by the King James Version, for example, 129 times (out of 150 total appearances) as "grace".

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass & DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1961, p.166; Smyth, H.W., Greek Grammar, Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1968, sec. 1852:b. )

We also have the another Protestant Greek scholar John Nolland, who expounds the Greek word "kecharitomene" as found in Luke 1:28 as follows:

"Luke 1:28...kecharitomene is a quite rare Hellanistic verb (only found elsewhere in the NT at Eph. 1:6 in the active) Etymologically it should mean 'To be furnished with Grace" (Word Biblical Commentary, volume 35A, Pg 50, Nelson, 1989 )

Thus, in just this one verse, pregnant with meaning and far-reaching implications, the uniqueness of Mary is strongly indicated, and the Immaculate Conception can rightly be deemed entirely consistent with the meaning of this passage.



More Greek References for "Full of Grace" found in Luke 1:28.

"Chartoo can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God..." [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta Ga., Bernard & Brothers publishing, 1982, pg 348]

"Chartoo...Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon...it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to" [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]

"The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena ‘full of grace', even the translators of 1611 King James Version show there approval of this in the Margin with "Much Graced" [A Look at the Greek Scriptures, 1984, New York, Garretson Cox & Company Pg. 123 ]

"Chartoo: Grace. To Grace.. as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,... as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be "accepted in the beloved" i.e., objects of Grace" [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc. Pg. 1471]

"Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitomene a perfect passive participle of the verb Chartoo (only here and Eph. 1:6)... Abbott- Smith defines Chartoo as follows endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Devine favor)" [Word Meaning in the New Testament, copyright 1986, printed by Henndrickson Publishing, edited by Ralph Earle Pg. 52]

"0 favored one (kecharitomene). angel's address of Mary marks her out recipient of God's special grace (BAG BDAG, 1081). For Luke, she is a model beneficiary of God's grace (1:48). The: other use of this verb in the NT Ephesians 1:6. [charitoo]" [The Bible Knowledge Key Word Study, copyright 2002, printed Victor Publishing, edited by Darrell L. Bock, Pg. 180]

"...Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon...it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to" [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc., p. 966]

"Chartoo. . . kecharitomene, full of grace, Luke, i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) "[Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, by W.J. Hickie M.A, 1945, p. 208]

"Chartoo to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6"[The New Englishman's Greek Concordance and Lexicon, by Wigram - Green, 1982, p. 915]

"28. kecharitomene... to bestow grace" [A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers, Jr. Vol. 1, Pg. 140]

"endue with grace" [A Pocket Lexicon To The Greek New Testament, by Alexander Souter M.A., 1946, P. 281]

"28. kecharitomene... to bestow grace" " [The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key To The New Testament, copyright 1998, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers III , Pg. 108]

"Chartoo. . . to endue with grace... : Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6" [A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, by G Abbott- Smith D.D, D.C.L., 1929, p. 480]

"Chartoo: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious... Luke I:28 'Highly favoured' (Marg., 'endued with grace')" [Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, [unabridged edition], by W. E. VINE, printed by Riverside Book and Bible House, Pg. 424]


http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/full_of_Grace_KJV.jpg

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/translators.htm

http://godstruthtous.com/framegvknavbarnt.htm

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/Grace_Geneva.jpg

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/images/Grace_Inter..jpg


The Early Church also viewed people who questioned Mary's grace as Heretics.. I myself honestly view people who put Mary as just another regular woman as such, as did nearly all the Early Church Fathers..

The Bible makes a prophecy about Virgin Mary, From now on all generations will call me blessed (Luke 1:48, NIV at Bible Gateway)... every time we pray the Hail Mary we fulfill this prophecy of the Bible, millions of times every day all over the world... do you fulfill it?... if only you or your church existed in the world, would this prophecy would be fulfilled now? .. It seems only the Catholics are the ones who are fullfilling this prophecy..


Who said all of Israel would be saved?? That is totally off point, there are many israelites that are out of God's grace.. that makes no sense.. the new jerusalem is the church(Christs followers)
 
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