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Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

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IamAdopted

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IamAdopted, I'm beginning to think you'll do or say anything to deny any possiblity of denying the Blessed Virgin Mary any honor, even take credit away from Christ cause mere blood is nothing without His wanting to die for us.

Anyways, if you want to continue to be so stubborn about it like you are with the translation of the word 'Grace' used in that verse, then yes, Mary also carried Christ's Blood in Her very womb. There is no way around it. She is the New Ark. The New Eve. She undid Eve's No that put us in this mess with a resounding Yes. :thumbsup:
Mary did not carry the blood of Jesus. He Did. She carried His body. The one who would lay down His life for His sheep and establish the new covenant and this being His shed blood. This is the new covenant that He poured out HIS blood. He is God with us Emmanuel. Just as the Ark was. In the Ark sat the law of God. Jesus fulfilled and completed this law. There was the rod of Aaron. We see in revelation that Jesus rules with an iron rod. Mary was the maker of the Ark. She was not the ark. If you will read Revelation you will see the Ark. Mary was blessed but she is not bless-ed. This is an add on to scripture to promote Mary.
even take credit away from Christ cause mere blood is nothing without His wanting to die for us.
If blood is nothing then why is it that it was the blood of animals that covered sin? Why is it that the blood of Abel cried out to God? This mere blood you speak of is the only way that we can have forgivness for this is the new covenant. That God Himself sent His only Begotten Son to shed His blood for the forgiveness of sin Once for all.
 
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IamAdopted

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Where did our Savior get his humanity from? As he is both God and Man?
IAA, where in the Bible does it say that God only incubated inside of Mary, that he did not receive her blood when He was formed? My goodness.........
Where does it say that Jesus got anything other than Humanity from Mary? It was His sinless spotless life that He lived not Mary that He was able to Shed His blood for the sins of mankind. He is the Spotless lamb. He alone is and was sin free. For He alone was the word made flesh who took on human form so that He may die for the sins of Man kind.
 
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Iollain

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She is the New Ark


The place Jesus entered once and for all, for all, was Heaven, the Holy of Holies where the Father is, and there He is on the Throne. Just like the high priest used to enter the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle, well Jesus entered the Very Holy of Holies, which is Heaven, to be with the Father.


Hbr 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; Hbr 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Hbr 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. Hbr 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Hbr 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
Hbr 9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. Hbr 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. Hbr 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Hbr 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; Hbr 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Hbr 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. Hbr 9:7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. Hbr 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Hbr 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hbr 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Look at how the OT high priests had to come meekly and with the blood of calves and.....animals, before the throne.

Now we can come boldly before the throne of God in Heaven, cause Jesus is the High Priest that entered Heaven once and for all, with His own Blood and is seated on the Throne with the Father, that throne in Heaven is not Mary, nor does it have anything to do with her.
 
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IamAdopted

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The place Jesus entered once and for all, for all, was Heaven, the Holy of Holies where the Father is, and there He is on the Throne. Just like the high priest used to enter the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle, well Jesus entered the Very Holy of Holies, which is Heaven, to be with the Father.


Hbr 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; Hbr 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Hbr 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore [it is] of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. Hbr 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Hbr 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
Hbr 9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. Hbr 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. Hbr 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Hbr 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; Hbr 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Hbr 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. Hbr 9:7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood. Hbr 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Hbr 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hbr 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Look at how the OT high priests had to come meekly and with the blood of calves and.....animals, before the throne.

Now we can come boldly before the throne of God in Heaven, cause Jesus is the High Priest that entered Heaven once and for all, with His own Blood and is seated on the Throne with the Father, that throne in Heaven is not Mary, nor does it have anything to do with her.
amen and amen .. Yahoo...
 
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ScottBot

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Where did our Savior get his humanity from? As he is both God and Man?
IAA, where in the Bible does it say that God only incubated inside of Mary, that he did not receive her blood when He was formed? My goodness.........
:amen: and :amen: ....Yeehah!!!
 
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IamAdopted

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:amen: and :amen: ....Yeehah!!!
Can you show me anywhere that says Jesus got anything else from Mary other than His humanity? This is the question. What did Mary give to Jesus other than His humanity? For Jesus had everything else. He had His Fathers Glory.
 
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ScottBot

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Can you show me anywhere that says Jesus got anything else from Mary other than His humanity? This is the question. What did Mary give to Jesus other than His humanity? For Jesus had everything else. He had His Fathers Glory.
His humanity was essential for his life, passion, death, and resurrection to be sufficient atonement. That God He got His humanity.... or else salvation would be a scam.
 
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ScottBot

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Strawman?
You only thanked God for Jesus' humanity.
That's who we only thank.
I agreed with your statement.
Where's the "straw"?
I thank Mary for saying yes, unless you believe that God made her say yes.

The strawman is implying that Catholic or Orthodox believe that Mary deserves credit for something that only God can do. Not that ever happens here......
 
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IamAdopted

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His humanity was essential for his life, passion, death, and resurrection to be sufficient atonement. That God He got His humanity.... or else salvation would be a scam.
Exactly and this is why he came through Mary. So He could get flesh. This is the only thing Mary gave Him. So therefore she was the mother of Jesus the incarnate God.
 
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ScottBot

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Exactly and this is why he came through Mary. So He could get flesh. This is the only thing Mary gave Him. So therefore she was the mother of Jesus the incarnate God.
You could just say the Mother of God and still be correct. Her cousin Elizabeth did and its right there in the bible, so it shouldn't be a problem.
 
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IamAdopted

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So therefore Why would Mary have to have an immaculate conception? She didn't for Jesus did not get any of His diety from Mary. He only got her Flesh. He was Holy in Himself. He proved this by the life He lead. He prooved it again when He died on the cross and Rose from the Dead. Him being the only one that was conceived from God.
 
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So therefore Why would Mary have to have an immaculate conception? She didn't for Jesus did not get any of His diety from Mary. He only got her Flesh. He was Holy in Himself. He proved this by the life He lead. He prooved it again when He died on the cross and Rose from the Dead. Him being the only one that was conceived from God.
Because in the bible, Gabriel calls Mary "full of grace" in a context that it applied over her entire life. If she was "full of grace" there is no room for anything else.
 
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IamAdopted

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Because in the bible, Gabriel calls Mary "full of grace" in a context that it applied over her entire life. If she was "full of grace" there is no room for anything else.
we can argue this over and over again. He said hail favored one. There is only one that was born Sin free. One and that would be Christ. We do not see in scripture anything about Marys birth. For this is not important for the Gosepel of Christ. It is Christ and His birth and His Death and ressurection that has importance. Mary being a human being was born with sin just like the rest of the Human beings. For there was only one that was born from God.
 
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we can argue this over and over again. He said hail favored one. There is only one that was born Sin free. One and that would be Christ. We do not see in scripture anything about Marys birth. For this is not important for the Gosepel of Christ. It is Christ and His birth and His Death and ressurection that has importance. Mary being a human being was born with sin just like the rest of the Human beings. For there was only one that was born from God.
He says, "Hail, full of grace".
 
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sunlover1

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we can argue this over and over again. He said hail favored one.

He says, "Hail, full of grace".

Should be easy enough to put this
argument to rest.
Anyone know Greek?

Either way, full of Grace, Favored.
(Is that super important? what am
I missing?)
She was still blessed among
women.

sunlover
 
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ScottBot

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Should be easy enough to put this
argument to rest.
Anyone know Greek?

Either way, full of Grace, Favored.
(Is that super important? what am
I missing?)
She was still blessed among
women.

sunlover
You could take a walk through some of the earlier posts. Repentant made a great exposition of the Greek on this topic. The word used in the original is kecharitomene, which means "full of grace"
 
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