Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[repentant]

This scripture being translated from the original greek means Hail favored one.. Not full of grace. This full of grace translation is based on Latin texts..

IN case you didn't notice, I was on your side as far as the IC is concerned...but please don't lecture me on what the Greek says. I put it up there for you to see..

keharitomenh ---haris means grace..this word pretty much litterally means, "lives in grace", or "grace lives in you" in another words..full of grace...but like I said, this in now way means she was IC'd...Stephen was full of grace as well..

 

[repentant]

How can a person be full of grace, or highly favored with grace....and also have sin on their soul? She is address with this title, before the Incarnation took place.



No, he wasn't immaculately conceieved, but he was filled with grace, at his baptism.

If haris of keharitoemeni is grace, then even in the translations that render "Higly favored one", would mean she was highly favored with grace, right?

I am not denying she was/is overflowing with grace. What I ams saying is that if the RCC makes the claim of her IC based on Gabriels greeting, then it is a serious flaw. Stephen was full of grace as well. Being full of grace does not mean they were born immaculatly..also where ANYWHERE (Scripture, ECF's, etc) does it say one cannot have grace and have sinned, or have sin. We all have sin, even Stephen, yet he was full of grace as well..

 

[jeffweeder]

No, Jesus didn't have original sin. John the Baptist's baptism, was only a symbolic washing, and didn't have the grace confered that would have washed away original sin. John, tells us that Jesus's baptism(the Sacrament of Baptism), would give the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was baptized it marked the beginning of His public ministry, and Jesus is annointed with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus didnt have original sin because he was Gods seed.
He was the ONLY begotton of God--

Everyone else is a result of mans seed, so all die because sin is in there somewhere. look;

Rom 5

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Jesus didnt have original sin because he was Gods seed.
He was the ONLY begotton of God--

Everyone else is a result of mans seed, so all die because sin is in there somewhere. look;

Rom 5

You must have me confused with another PassthePeace1, because I never said Jesus, had original sin.

Peace be with you....Pam

 

[PassthePeace1]

I am not denying she was/is overflowing with grace. What I ams saying is that if the RCC makes the claim of her IC based on Gabriels greeting, then it is a serious flaw. Stephen was full of grace as well. Being full of grace does not mean they were born immaculatly..also where ANYWHERE (Scripture, ECF's, etc) does it say one cannot have grace and have sinned, or have sin. We all have sin, even Stephen, yet he was full of grace as well..

Okay, now I think I understand why you were comparing the verse and Mary to the verse about Stephen. You basically saying that if the Immaculate Conception, was based soley on the verse in Luke...that it wouldn't be enought to form a theological conclusion from, about the her conception, because scripture also records Stephen as being full of grace. Right?

I agree, that just the statement alone...that someone is full of grace doesn't mean that they were immaculate conceived, because it is possible for us, also to become full of grace. However, as outline in Ineffabilis Deus....the dogma was not based soley on that one verse. They took into consideration, the Catholic understanding of Mary as the New Eve, inference from other scriptures, the anicent practice of the Feast of the Conception, ECFs writings, and probably something else...I just don't recall right now..lol.

Also, in regards to St. Stephen....it is my understanding that the greek words for full of grace, was phrased alittle differently. I really have no way to veriy this since I don't read greek...but I read in an article earlier today, that the words used were pleres charitos. Does that change the meaning or the application in any way? Either way, would you mind explaining it to me, for future reference.


Peace be with you...Pam

 

[IamAdopted]

IN case you didn't notice, I was on your side as far as the IC is concerned...but please don't lecture me on what the Greek says. I put it up there for you to see..

keharitomenh ---haris means grace..this word pretty much litterally means, "lives in grace", or "grace lives in you" in another words..full of grace...but like I said, this in now way means she was IC'd...Stephen was full of grace as well..

The word used in this Scripture is Xapltow (Charitoo) Here is the meaning of this word.

1) to make graceful
a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

Repentent I am not lecturing you. I am responding to what you have to say. You have a whole different word that what I have.

 

[DMagoh]

...They took into consideration, the Catholic understanding of Mary as the New Eve...

Peace be with you...Pam

That's another thing I dont understand. Where did this "New Eve" come from? You said it was "the Catholic understanding" - how did it come to be, I dont see it in the scriptures.

 

[IamAdopted]

That's another thing I dont understand. Where did this "New Eve" come from? You said it was "the Catholic understanding" - how did it come to be, I dont see it in the scriptures.

Good Question.

 

[PassthePeace1]

That's another thing I dont understand. Where did this "New Eve" come from? You said it was "the Catholic understanding" - how did it come to be, I dont see it in the scriptures.

New Eve, is a type of typology. Typology is were certain events or people, in the Old Testament, prefigure, foreshadow, show anticipation, and symbolize persons or events in the New Testament.

The CCC explains it like this..

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2

The unity of the Old and New Testaments
128 The Church, as early as apostolic times,104 and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God's works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son.
129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself.105 Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament.106 As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.107 130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfillment of the divine plan when "God [will] be everything to everyone."108 Nor do the calling of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value in God's plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages.

Three of the major typologies for Mary, are Eve, the Ark of the Covenant, and Queen Mother, that support the Catholic Church's marian beliefs.

We know that the Early Church, had an understanding also of typologies inregards to Mary; and used them to teach about Mary's role in the ecomony of salvation. St. Irenaeus, and St. Justin, some of the earliest Church Fathers, St. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp...who was a disciple of St. John. St. Justin also had close tieds to the Apostles, but I dont remember which one.... . Both wrote on Mary being the New Eve.

A Catholic understanding, of Mary as the New Eve..is explained in this brief article.


The New Eve

 

[repentant]

Okay, now I think I understand why you were comparing the verse and Mary to the verse about Stephen. You basically saying that if the Immaculate Conception, was based soley on the verse in Luke...that it wouldn't be enought to form a theological conclusion from, about the her conception, because scripture also records Stephen as being full of grace. Right?

I agree, that just the statement alone...that someone is full of grace doesn't mean that they were immaculate conceived, because it is possible for us, also to become full of grace. However, as outline in Ineffabilis Deus....the dogma was not based soley on that one verse. They took into consideration, the Catholic understanding of Mary as the New Eve, inference from other scriptures, the anicent practice of the Feast of the Conception, ECFs writings, and probably something else...I just don't recall right now..lol.

Also, in regards to St. Stephen....it is my understanding that the greek words for full of grace, was phrased alittle differently. I really have no way to veriy this since I don't read greek...but I read in an article earlier today, that the words used were pleres charitos. Does that change the meaning or the application in any way? Either way, would you mind explaining it to me, for future reference.


Peace be with you...Pam

That is what I am saying, because that was an apologetic you gave.

But what ECF's talked of an immaculate conception of Mary? we Orthodox have the same ECF's, why do we not know of these statements? Not to mention the language of the East is Greek, and this is the language in which most of their writings would have been in...


OK Luke reffering to Mary says: keharitomeni...broken down we have harito which is grace, and we have meni, which means lives or dwells. Now Gabriel calls her this word keharitomeni, so kind of like a title. (Orig. Greek does not say hail Mary) So this would come down to meaning "one who in which grace dwells/lives"

Now in Acts reffering to Stephen, it says pliris haritos..we have pliris.."filled or filled with", and haritos, which means grace. So pliris haritos means "filled with grace".

So you can see how both can pretty much say the same thing. Actually to be technical, Stephen's grace can be said to be more than Mary's, if you just compared these two words. It says he is filled with it, and only that it lives or dwells within Mary.

 

[repentant]

The word used in this Scripture is Xapltow (Charitoo) Here is the meaning of this word. Repentent I am not lecturing you. I am responding to what you have to say. You have a whole different word that what I have.

Are you reffering here to Luke 1:28? Because the word is keharitomeni, not just haritos that is used..

Haris means grace. Has meant grace for a pretty long time now.

 

[IamAdopted]

Are you reffering here to Luke 1:28? Because the word is keharitomeni, not just haritos that is used..

Haris means grace. Has meant grace for a pretty long time now.

this is not the word that is used in my bible it is charitoo.

 

[repentant]

this is not the word that is used in my bible it is charitoo.

What Bible is this? Is it online, or physical?

Anyway, it's wrong.

 

[IamAdopted]

What Bible is this? Is it online, or physical?

Anyway, it's wrong.

Where is the evidence that is it wrong? For I believe it is right.

 

[repentant]

Where is the evidence that is it wrong? For I believe it is right.

Because the word is keharitomeni, not haritos.

The point is moot anyway, since harito, or haritos means grace...

But here are 2 online Greek Bibles that say the same thing as my Greek Bible, which is OG..

http://www.greekbible.com/index.php

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?source=greek&verseref=Luke+1:28

Scroll down on the second one..

kai eiselqwn proV authn eipen caire kecaritwmenh o kurioV meta sou.

P.S. You are talking to a fluent Greek here...

 

[repentant]

IAA,

Regardless of what it says, are you argueing that haritos does not mean grace? That is an impression I am getting, but I could be wrong..

 

[IamAdopted]

IAA,

Regardless of what it says, are you argueing that haritos does not mean grace? That is an impression I am getting, but I could be wrong..

No I am not saying that what you are saying doesn't mean grace. I am saying the the greek word used in this scripture is Xapltow. (charitoo) The scripture does not say that Mary is full of Grace. The scripture says Hail or greetings favored one.

 

[repentant]

No I am not saying that what you are saying doesn't mean grace. I am saying the the greek word used in this scripture is Xapltow. (charitoo) The scripture does not say that Mary is full of Grace. The scripture says Hail or greetings favored one.

Did you see the two links I put up?

haritos, which is the word you are using, means grace. Keharitomeni, which is the word used in the Greek is a compound word, that uses the word haritos in it.

Harito..grace and meni..lives or dwells. The way Gabriel says it, it is what he is calling her, so it's a title. Basically he is saying, "you, or one in which grace dwells."


How they translated "favored one" from keharitomeni, I have no idea..

 

[PassthePeace1]

That is what I am saying, because that was an apologetic you gave.

But what ECF's talked of an immaculate conception of Mary? we Orthodox have the same ECF's, why do we not know of these statements? Not to mention the language of the East is Greek, and this is the language in which most of their writings would have been in...

Okie dokie, going to try this again...I have a response to this post, and when I hit submit...I got an data base error page...and it looks like it's lost in cyber space.

To be honest, I haven't tried to surf and look up any Early Church Fathers quotes yet, because my computer is on it's last leg....and doing any kind of research, is just so frustating. I do have some quotes from Scripture Catholic, but haven't posting them before....because they just have a sentence or two...and I prefer to read everything in it's full context...so I can get a better ideal of what the author is conveying. My husband is off next week, and we are getting an new computer.. So then I will be better suited to do more research into the writings of the ECFs.

But from what I have been told, the Immaculate Conception, had been discussed in the Early Church...but not much in great detail. They even take into considerations, some writers that spoke out against the Immaculate Conception....because that also shows that the issue had come up for discussion.

Here is a couple of quotes though, from Scripture Catholic...I'll provide the link, if you want to look all of the quotes they have on the site.

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).


"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily

Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

OK Luke reffering to Mary says: keharitomeni...broken down we have harito which is grace, and we have meni, which means lives or dwells. Now Gabriel calls her this word keharitomeni, so kind of like a title. (Orig. Greek does not say hail Mary) So this would come down to meaning "one who in which grace dwells/lives"

You know...I really do like the way that sounds....that grace lives or dwells within her. For me this seems to support the Immaculate Conception. "One who in which grace dwells/lives", seems to imply...that she recieved grace prior to the Incarnation.

The thought occured to me, that what really lays at the heart of the matter, more so than the Immaculate Conception....is the difference of views that the East and West have on Original Sin? What say you?

Now in Acts reffering to Stephen, it says pliris haritos..we have pliris.."filled or filled with", and haritos, which means grace. So pliris haritos means "filled with grace".

Thanks for explaining this for me.

So you can see how both can pretty much say the same thing. Actually to be technical, Stephen's grace can be said to be more than Mary's, if you just compared these two words. It says he is filled with it, and only that it lives or dwells within Mary.

Actually, I perceive Mary's greeting to have more weight, even though they could be rendered the same...full of grace. For me, "one who in which grace lives or dwells", sounds so much more intimate.

Peace be with you....Pam (crosses fingers as she hits, submit)

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[repentant]

Okie dokie, going to try this again...I have a response to this post, and when I hit submit...I got an data base error page...and it looks like it's lost in cyber space.

To be honest, I haven't tried to surf and look up any Early Church Fathers quotes yet, because my computer is on it's last leg....and doing any kind of research, is just so frustating. I do have some quotes from Scripture Catholic, but haven't posting them before....because they just have a sentence or two...and I prefer to read everything in it's full context...so I can get a better ideal of what the author is conveying. My husband is off next week, and we are getting an new computer.. So then I will be better suited to do more research into the writings of the ECFs.

But from what I have been told, the Immaculate Conception, had been discussed in the Early Church...but not much in great detail. They even take into considerations, some writers that spoke out against the Immaculate Conception....because that also shows that the issue had come up for discussion.

Here is a couple of quotes though, from Scripture Catholic...I'll provide the link, if you want to look all of the quotes they have on the site.



Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY







You know...I really do like the way that sounds....that grace lives or dwells within her. For me this seems to support the Immaculate Conception. "One who in which grace dwells/lives", seems to imply...that she recieved grace prior to the Incarnation.

The thought occured to me, that what really lays at the heart of the matter, more so than the Immaculate Conception....is the difference of views that the East and West have on Original Sin? What say you?



Thanks for explaining this for me.




Actually, I perceive Mary's greeting to have more weight, even though they could be rendered the same...full of grace. For me, "one who in which grace lives or dwells", sounds so much more intimate.

Peace be with you....Pam (crosses fingers as she hits, submit)

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Yea I don't know what's going on, I have been having computer issues myself..the database error thing. It's probably the site.

But yes, I do think it boils down to our different views of original sin. Our original sin is death (earthly) and your's is the sin itself. So we can't believe Mary was IC'd. because she did die. Also we think she was born just like everyone else, that is what makes her so special. What in your opinion is more special to look up to as a role model so to speak, (as we are to look up at Mary's example of Christian obedience and her life of purity)...someone who did not sin because she couldn't because she was born without the flaw all men are..or someone who CHOSE not to sin, allthough she could?