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Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine? (2)

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simonthezealot

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One problem, Jesus wasn't created. You are equating Mary with Jesus here and that's blasphemous, even if you don't see it that way.
exactly...

Adam and Eve were created without sin, and they weren't gods. The IC does not deify anyone.
:D
Bull it makes a human being outside of Christ sinless that defies scripture, Adam and Eve were created before the fall of man.
 
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Athanasias

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exactly...


Bull it makes a human being outside of Christ sinless that defies scripture, Adam and Eve were created before the fall of man.

Adam and Eve were created before the fall. But Jesus and Mary the New Adam and Second Eve are the beginning and restoration of the fall(Which culminates fully in Revelation). Catholics do not consider Mary to be outside of Christ. Mary is part of the Body of Christ and she is in Christ. Mary is intimately connected to Christ. Christ fulfills Adam(1 Cor 15:45) Mary fulfills Eve(Rev 12:1-5, Lk 1-2, John 2: 3-5, John 19:26-27). Adam and Eve were originally sinless, Mary and Jesus are sinless as they were superior to them as all Typological biblical fulfillments are superior to their old testament types. Mary would have been inferior to Eve had she not been sinless. Yet Mary is superior to Eve as Rev 12:1-5 and Lukes Gospel demonstrates. We Catholics teach that it was Jesus who made her sinless. So it was not apart from him, as you suggest it was by his grace, his love and Honor for her, and his cross that he did this for her.
 
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simonthezealot

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Adam and Eve were created before the fall. But Jesus and Mary the New Adam and Second Eve are the beginning and restoration of the fall(Which culminates fully in Revelation). Catholics do not consider Mary to be outside of Christ. Mary is part of the Body of Christ and she is in Christ. Mary is intimately connected to Christ. Christ fulfills Adam(1 Cor 15:45) Mary fulfills Eve(Rev 12:1-5, Lk 1-2, John 2: 3-5, John 19:26-27). Adam and Eve were originally sinless, Mary and Jesus are sinless as they were superior to them as all Typological biblical fulfillments are superior to their old testament types. Mary would have been inferior to Eve had she not been sinless. Yet Mary is superior to Eve as Rev 12:1-5 and Lukes Gospel demonstrates. We Catholics teach that it was Jesus who made her sinless. So it was not apart from him, as you suggest it was by his grace, his love and Honor for her, and his cross that he did this for her.
You guys can look at what i've bolded and NOT see any attachment of a deistic identity?
OPEN your eyes and look again...:eek:
 
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Athanasias

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You guys can look at what i've bolded and NOT see any attachment of a deistic identity?
OPEN your eyes and look again...:eek:

The problem for you is that the Catholic Church does not attribute divinity to Mary. She is simply viewed as a sinless creature created by God just like Eve was originally. She is not worshiped or considered a Goddess.

Just because someone is created sinless does not make them God or deify them. If that were the case then Adam and Eve would have been Gods yet they were not. They like Mary were created creatures by God.
 
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tiitmouse

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The problem for you is that the Catholic Church does not attribute divinity to Mary. She is simply viewed as a sinless creature created by God just like Eve was originally. She is not worshiped or considered a Goddess.

Just because someone is created sinless does not make them God or deify them. If that were the case then Adam and Eve would have been Gods yet they were not. They like Mary were created creatures by God.
This is interesting. I'm thinking of becoming a Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox. I never thought about that: Eve was created sinless, so why not Mary?
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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This is interesting. I'm thinking of becoming a Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox. I never thought about that: Eve was created sinless, so why not Mary?
why would she have to be? By the standard biblical accounts there is nothing leading to this assumption, other than the 'hail full of grace'. The rest comes from extrabiblical texts which , to me, only attempt to fill in gaps. Similar to the 'adam and eve' book, with questions abounding, someone attempted to answer them. I fully believe we should revere Mary for her contribution in bringing the Savior to this world, but thats about it. I have no reason to believe she lived a sinless life, nor do I have reason to believe Jesus was an only child. I think she did a great thing, but just who should our focus be on, really?
 
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JoabAnias

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why would she have to be? By the standard biblical accounts there is nothing leading to this assumption, other than the 'hail full of grace'. The rest comes from extrabiblical texts which , to me, only attempt to fill in gaps. Similar to the 'adam and eve' book, with questions abounding, someone attempted to answer them. I fully believe we should revere Mary for her contribution in bringing the Savior to this world, but thats about it. I have no reason to believe she lived a sinless life, nor do I have reason to believe Jesus was an only child. I think she did a great thing, but just who should our focus be on, really?

Subscribing.

We do not believe Jesus was an only child. One of the uninspired recieved texts leads us to believe that Joeseph was an older widower with several children of his own.
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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We do not believe Jesus was an only child. One of the uninspired recieved texts leads us to believe that Joeseph was an older widower with several children of his own.

Hi Joab. Thanks for your input. I meant 'only child' as in the only offspring of Mary, since she is the focal point of the topic at the moment. I don't find any evidence that Joseph was a widower coming into his relationship with Mary, and no reference at all to his pre-existing children being with them before the birth of Jesus. You'd think it'd mention his other kids if they escaped to egypt with them, right? Or if he left them behind with other family, or anything. I haven't read through the birth account of Jesus in some time, but from what I recall, there is nothing that would lead to this assumption, other than extrabiblical texts written at a later date. Being that the text is not written till later, or 'uninspired' as you may call it, what gives it the veracity to base a belief upon? Other than that it is an answer? I consider gnostic writings as uninspired, and therefore do not give them any particular level of trust. Is this another issue of trusting the teacher rather than the teaching? If I'm incorrect, please correct me on this. This is one subject in which I'm still trying to understand the catholic view. Thanks, and God bless.
 
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tiitmouse

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why would she have to be? By the standard biblical accounts there is nothing leading to this assumption, other than the 'hail full of grace'. The rest comes from extrabiblical texts which , to me, only attempt to fill in gaps. Similar to the 'adam and eve' book, with questions abounding, someone attempted to answer them. I fully believe we should revere Mary for her contribution in bringing the Savior to this world, but thats about it. I have no reason to believe she lived a sinless life, nor do I have reason to believe Jesus was an only child. I think she did a great thing, but just who should our focus be on, really?
Why would people have believed it for so long? What would be the point in making something like that up?
 
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simonthezealot

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Subscribing.

We do not believe Jesus was an only child. One of the uninspired recieved texts leads us to believe that Joeseph was an older widower with several children of his own.
But Joab my friend some of the INSPIRED writings lead us to believe that Mary and Jesus' brothers hung with him, no reason to think they weren't Mary's kids...
 
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Athanasias

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why would she have to be? By the standard biblical accounts there is nothing leading to this assumption, other than the 'hail full of grace'. The rest comes from extrabiblical texts which , to me, only attempt to fill in gaps. Similar to the 'adam and eve' book, with questions abounding, someone attempted to answer them. I fully believe we should revere Mary for her contribution in bringing the Savior to this world, but thats about it. I have no reason to believe she lived a sinless life, nor do I have reason to believe Jesus was an only child. I think she did a great thing, but just who should our focus be on, really?


Hi Jockey and Peace be with you. Good questions. First of all She doesn't "have" to be immaculate. God could have done what he wanted without making her Immaculate. But God choose to honor her by making her immaculate because it would be fitting for her to be since God made her the typological fulfillment of the Ark of the covenant and the Eve and completed her and endowed her completely with his grace.

We do not get our info from the book of Adam and Eve for this dogma. We get it from Scripture itself and the teachings of the early Christians.

Yes we understand that you do not believe it but in our Catholic understanding and the early Churches her immaculate conception is in scripture implicitly. So we dissagree with you!


How you ask? Well here goes again!

Mary in the New Testament is also a fulfillment of certain types namely Eve and the Ark of the Covenant. In Genesis Eve is described as a “Women” who disobeyed God. Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate. The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil) and they choose freely to dis-obey God and eat one food from one tree that would cause death for a whole race. In Luke’s gospel the same is seen but only in reversed and redemptive way. In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel) and this one woman freely chooses to obey and ac-cept God’s plan for her, unlike Eve. This one women would give birth to one man -Jesus Christ- who would die for all on a tree and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion). Mary is truly the fulfillment of Eve as Jesus is of Adam. Catholic Scripture scholar Dr. Scott Hahn demonstrates that Mary is called by the title “woman” by Jesus himself and in Rev 12:1-17 one discovers that the “woman” who is described as a ful-fillment of Eve is the Mother of God herself.
The Fathers of the Church saw Mary as the fulfillment of Eve too. St. Justin Martyr in 155 A.D. made direct comparisons to Mary and Eve on a redemptive level. St. Ireneuas spoke of Mary as a fulfillment of Eve stating that in Luke’s Gospel Mary loosed the knot of sin that Eve bound the world in. Even as early as the late 1st century the writings of Mathetes spoke of a new incorrupt Eve who was a Virgin.


The typology of Mary as New Eve is important to the Immaculate Conception because it shows implicit evidence for the doctrine. Remembering that all New Testament fulfillments are far greater and more powerful than their Old Testament types one can only conclude that Mary is immaculately conceived. Eve and Adam were created without sin; Jesus and Mary fulfill their types. Just as the new Adam, Jesus is sinless, so too the new Eve, Mary. If Mary was not con-ceived sinless she would be a inferior type to Eve. This is why many fathers of the church, such as St. Augustine in his work “Nature and Grace” , freely and confidently proclaimed Mary to be sinless.



Another type Mary fulfills is the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant contained three things: the Manna from heaven, the rod of Aaron (a sign of high priestly Authority), and the ten words (or Ten Commandments) of God. Mary carried in her womb the fulfillment of all three of those things. Jesus Christ is the new manna from heaven and is the new covenant high priest who rules the new kingdom (the church with a rod of iron). Like the ten words carried in the Ark, Jesus is the Word of God incarnate himself. The United States Catholic Bishops show how St. Luke presented Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant in parallels in their pastoral letter. For example, if one compares 2 Sam 6 with Luke 1 they will find Mary being presented as the new Ark. In 2 Sam 6:2 David arose and went to Judah; in Luke 1:39 Mary arose and went to Judah. In 2 Sam 6:9 David ask “How can the ark of the Lord come to Me”. In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth uses almost identical language saying “ why is this granted me that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.” In 2 Sam 6:11 the Ark remained for three months. In Lk 1:56 Mary stays three months with Elizabeth. In 2 Sam 6:12 David rejoices; in Lk 1:47 Mary’s spirit rejoices. In 2 Sam 6:16 there is leaping and dancing. In Lk 1:41 the babe leaps in Elizabeth's womb. Also interesting to note is the Ark of the Covenant was overshadowed by the Spirit of God. Luke used similar language that the Septuagint (Greek translations of the Old Testament) use in Exodus describing the Ark being overshadowed to describe Mary being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Clearly St. Luke sees Mary as typologically the fulfillment of the Ark.

Scripture Scholar Dr. Scott Hahn also shows how gospel writer John reveals Mary as the New Ark in the Book of Revelation(Rev 11:19). The ark of God’s heavenly covenant is revealed, and in the very next verse(Rev 12:1) the woman, Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, appears. Dr. Hahn reminds readers that when Scripture was written there were no chapters and verses, and when the Book of Revelation is read in its immediate and typological context the Ark is revealed as Mary.


Fathers of the Church like St. Hippolytus, St. Jerome, and St. Ambrose had openly proclaimed Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant and many of the fathers of the church also spoke of her being sinless. The earliest hymns written in praise of Mary spoke of Mary as “with-out stain or blemish” and also spoke of her as “Ark Gilded by the Holy Ghost”. If Mary is truly a fulfillment of the Ark then her Immaculate Conception makes sense. What the old ark contained could not be touched by sin. One had to be sanctified from sin just to carry the ark due to its precious cargo(1 Chron 15:12-14). Uzzuh was himself killed because he was a sinful man who touched the ark (2Sam 6:6-8). If the old covenant ark could not be touched by sin because of what it carried, how much more would the new covenant fulfillment of the ark (Mary) not be touched by sin for what she carried. For the wisdom of God will not dwell in a body under the debt of sin(Wis 1:4), and Jesus Christ is wisdom personified(1 Cor 1:24). Hence Mary’s Immaculate Conception is biblically implicit and made explicit by apostolic tradition and councils such as other Christian dogmas like the Trinity.:liturgy::thumbsup::wave:
 
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Athanasias

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This is interesting. I'm thinking of becoming a Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox. I never thought about that: Eve was created sinless, so why not Mary?

Amen! :thumbsup:We would welcome you into Jesus Catholic church where you could find the fullness of Gods truth. I am a Catholic theology student and I have written several papers on Catholic dogma from a biblical perspective. If you ever need prayers or help please feel free to contact me.

May our Lord Jesus give yout he grace of his full conversion and May our Mother Mary intercede for you to her son.


Pace be with you!:liturgy:

In Jesus through Mary.
Athanasias
 
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tiitmouse

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Amen! :thumbsup:We would welcome you into Jesus Catholic church where you could find the fullness of Gods truth. I am a Catholic theology student and I have written several papers on Catholic dogma from a biblical perspective. If you ever need prayers or help please feel free to contact me.

May our Lord Jesus give yout he grace of his full conversion and May our Mother Mary intercede for you to her son.


Pace be with you!:liturgy:

In Jesus through Mary.
Athanasias
Thank you.
 
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holdon

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I don't understand that statement

God created Adam and Eve in His image and likeness. Once Adam and Eve had sinned we read that they begot children in their own image and likeness: tainted by sin.
Mary was no exception. She was born out of a human father and mother.
 
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JoabAnias

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God created Adam and Eve in His image and likeness. Once Adam and Eve had sinned we read that they begot children in their own image and likeness: tainted by sin.
Mary was no exception. She was born out of a human father and mother.
So God could create humans out of dust but can't preserve the mother of the incarnation from mortal sin?

I think God can do whatever He pleases and has no human limitations.

Peace.
 
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holdon

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So God could create humans out of dust but can't preserve the mother of the incarnation from mortal sin?
Who says He did?
I think God can do whatever He pleases and has no human limitations.

Peace.
Me too. But that doesn't mean that He does whatever pleases one's theology....
 
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JoabAnias

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Who says He did?

You don't know?


Me too. But that doesn't mean that He does whatever pleases one's theology....

You mean like self interpretation of the scriptures where what choses what they think they mean?
 
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