Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine? (2)

[JoabAnias]

God is not a respecter of persons.

For me, that generalization doesn't hold up to the fact that God doesn't force His will on anyone and allows us free will, even to reject Him.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

For me, that generalization doesn't hold up to the fact that God doesn't force His will on anyone and allows us free will, even to reject Him.

I meant it in that He doesn't revere Mary for her faith. Pleased, sure, but revered? God does not hope for us to follow Him, He expects it, and rightfully so. God bless!

 

[JoabAnias]

I meant it in that He doesn't revere Mary for her faith. Pleased, sure, but revered? God does not hope for us to follow Him, He expects it, and rightfully so. God bless!

Ah, I C. Good to see ya bro. I agree she (or any human) isn't revered at all by God. She is who He made her. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Ah, I C. Good to see ya bro. I agree she (or any human) isn't revered at all by God. She is who He made her. Nothing more, nothing less.

You as well.

 

[Athanasias]

Sorry, but I find this really disturbing.. Now God reverences his creation? I don't mean to pounce on your wording, but let's just leave it at "we don't know".



Yeah, I know God exists outside of time. And I've heard this "argument" before. Again, you're elevating Mary and saying that Jesus/God needs to honor her.

What about Isaiah 42, verse 8, "I am the Lord, that is My name; My glory I give to no other"

Yes Gods own glory is given to no other because none else is God. but that doesn't mean that God doesn't give a type of glory to other people.

What about the ten commandments? Jesus is God 100% and as God he followed the Law, the ten commandments perfectly. Part of the ten commandments is the command to Honor your Mother and Father. In the Hebrew the word for honor means to "glorify" literally. Jesus glorfied his Mother by creating her immaculate out of love and respect for her. Biblically he made her the new Ark of the covenant, the Second Eve, and the New Queen Mother. We simply imitate Christ.

 

[Athanasias]

God is not a respecter of persons
This concept is not based on biblical evidence at all, it's just speculation in attempt to defend a tradition which didn't have any biblical support, and then was built on with other traditions using the same faulty concept. The entire series of beliefs stems from trying to understand how our Lord could be brought onto this earth through a normal person. The idea is He couldn't, so grown from that is: Immaculate conception, sinless nature, perpetual virginity, bodily assumption into heaven, and even as far as claims of co-redeemer or mediatrix.
Christ says to deny ourselves and follow Him, not deny ourselves, and then ask Mary to see if we can follow Him. God is the creator of life, and all things live through Him. He knows all things, so to pray to someone other than Him is pointless, since the prayer goes through Him first anyway.
On that note, the biblical Mary lived a great life of humility. That being said, I find no reason why she would want, or even allow anyone to revere her, rather than revering the God who she devoutly followed.

You may see it as a great and valid thing, but I see people kissing statues and putting offerings in front of them.

You seem to misunderstand and have many misconceptions about alot of Catholic theology . I suggest you read a Catholic book like the Catechism or Dr. Scott Hahn's Hail Holy Queen to understand our perspective. God does respect his creation. God glorified Mary. Jesus respected and Glorified his Mom as he fulfilled the ten commandments perfectly. The Immaculate conception IS based on biblical evidence as I have shown in several of my earlier post. But why would it have to be found in scripture to be true? Why does everything have to have biblical evidence for it to be true? Where does the bible ever make that claim that everything we beleive and hold to must be found only in the bible? Martin Luther made that one up 1500 to late. Thats sola scriptura, a false man made tradition.

You really misunderstand what praying means to a Catholic.
The word Pray has a broad meaning, Any dictionary will show this. It can mean worship or communication to God. Or it can also mean to simply "ask another human being". The word itself comes from Prithie Or I pray thee, or I ask you.

When a Catholic prays to God he is asking God to help him and he is also worshiping God. But when a Catholic prays to Mary or the Saints, they are simply "Asking" those saints to pray for them to God. Just like you would ask your Christian friends(the body of Christ on earth) to pray for you we Catholics also ask our departed brothers(the body of Christ in heaven) to pray for us. We do this for several reasons.

1) We do not believe that Christ has two bodies(one in heaven and one on earth) we believe that there is only One body of Christ(Eph 4:4). That one body exist in both heaven and on earth.

2) We believe that God wants his Body to pray and intercede for eachother(1 Tim 2:1)

3) We believe that the prayers of the righteous man avails much(James 5:16)
and who is more righteous than those in heaven?

4) We believe that those in heaven hear our prayers to them and offer them up like incense before Gods heavenly Throne(Rev 5:8) on our behalf.

We also see this understanding as a apostolic tradition that was taught and practiced in the early Christian communities and liturgies of the Christian Church.


We do not worship saints. We worship God alone!


Kissing a statue or leaving a flower for Mary is much like kissing a picture of your wife or leaving a flowers at a grave site. You never worship that picture you just kiss it out of reverences and respect and love for the person whom you admire because it reminds you of them. Period.

I hope that helps.

Gods Bless you all in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

 

[WashedClean]

Yes Gods own glory is given to no other because none else is God. but that doesn't mean that God doesn't give a type of glory to other people.

What about the ten commandments? Jesus is God 100% and as God he followed the Law, the ten commandments perfectly. Part of the ten commandments is the command to Honor your Mother and Father. In the Hebrew the word for honor means to "glorify" literally. Jesus glorfied his Mother by creating her immaculate out of love and respect for her. Biblically he made her the new Ark of the covenant, the Second Eve, and the New Queen Mother. We simply imitate Christ.

I find it interesting that many Catholics seem to use semantics when discussing words like prayer, worship, etc. You can dissect it and try to justify it all you want, it still makes me very uncomfortable.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Thanks for your post.

You seem to misunderstand and have many misconceptions about alot of Catholic theology .

I suppose me and every other non-catholic does. *shrug*

I suggest you read a Catholic book like the Catechism or Dr. Scott Hahn's Hail Holy Queen to understand our perspective. God does respect his creation. God glorified Mary. Jesus respected and Glorified his Mom as he fulfilled the ten commandments perfectly.

The title of that book bothers me, but i'll check it out.

The Immaculate conception IS based on biblical evidence as I have shown in several of my earlier post.

I'll have to read through it again, I don't use the evangelion of james as a viable source, however.

But why would it have to be found in scripture to be true? Why does everything have to have biblical evidence for it to be true?

Because the problem is that anyone could form a tradition around their angle of beliefs, this is shown with all of the varying early christian texts.

Where does the bible ever make that claim that everything we beleive and hold to must be found only in the bible? Martin Luther made that one up 1500 to late. Thats sola scriptura, a false man made tradition.

Do you know why he made it up? Do you agree with his reasoning?

You really misunderstand what praying means to a Catholic.
The word Pray has a broad meaning, Any dictionary will show this. It can mean worship or communication to God. Or it can also mean to simply "ask another human being". The word itself comes from Prithie Or I pray thee, or I ask you.

Sure, but if I need God's help why would I bother praying to someone other than Him? If saints have the power to hear and answer prayers, then it is purely God-given. Therefore, I'm not risking diverting my attention away from the Creator, He is my only focus.

When a Catholic prays to God he is asking God to help him and he is also worshiping God. But when a Catholic prays to Mary or the Saints, they are simply "Asking" those saints to pray for them to God. Just like you would ask your Christian friends(the body of Christ on earth) to pray for you we Catholics also ask our departed brothers(the body of Christ in heaven) to pray for us. We do this for several reasons.

I believe that a prayer sent out to heaven is BOTH request and worship, the reason being is you are petitioning a spiritual being to work for you, when God is the be-all and end-all as to whether that prayer is answered. I think its rather condescending towards God to pray to a middle-man, so to speak. He sees and knows all, so its not like He can't hear you praying to Him. He hears you praying to that saint also.

4) We believe that those in heaven hear our prayers to them and offer them up like incense before Gods heavenly Throne(Rev 5:8) on our behalf.

do you take the rest of Rev this literal also? I think heavenly operations are far beyond our mortal grasp, and I don't limit God to having to wait for a saint to deliver a prayer to Him.

We do not worship saints. We worship God alone!


Kissing a statue or leaving a flower for Mary is much like kissing a picture of your wife or leaving a flowers at a grave site. You never worship that picture you just kiss it out of reverences and respect and love for the person whom you admire because it reminds you of them. Period.

Reverence and glory should go to Him who gave them the ability to serve Him. It's all part of His plan, isn't it?

I hope that helps.

I appreciate the response.

Gods Bless you all in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

Same to you! (minus the 'through Mary' part) Take care!

 

[Athanasias]

Thanks for your post.
I suppose me and every other non-catholic does. *shrug*
The title of that book bothers me, but i'll check it out.
I'll have to read through it again, I don't use the evangelion of james as a viable source, however.
Because the problem is that anyone could form a tradition around their angle of beliefs, this is shown with all of the varying early christian texts.
Do you know why he made it up? Do you agree with his reasoning?

Sure, but if I need God's help why would I bother praying to someone other than Him? If saints have the power to hear and answer prayers, then it is purely God-given. Therefore, I'm not risking diverting my attention away from the Creator, He is my only focus.

I believe that a prayer sent out to heaven is BOTH request and worship, the reason being is you are petitioning a spiritual being to work for you, when God is the be-all and end-all as to whether that prayer is answered. I think its rather condescending towards God to pray to a middle-man, so to speak. He sees and knows all, so its not like He can't hear you praying to Him. He hears you praying to that saint also.
do you take the rest of Rev this literal also? I think heavenly operations are far beyond our mortal grasp, and I don't limit God to having to wait for a saint to deliver a prayer to Him.

Reverence and glory should go to Him who gave them the ability to serve Him. It's all part of His plan, isn't it?

I appreciate the response.



Same to you! (minus the 'through Mary' part) Take care!

Hi Jockey thanks for your response! I appreciate the dialogue with you. I never used the protoevangeliom of James to back up the immaculate conception. I used scripture and typology. Please re-read my evidences again.


It is true that anyone could form a tradition and make up their own stuff. These would be tradition's of mere men. Jesus and St Paul condemn those types of traditions. But St Paul also commanded Christians to hold fast to the Oral traditions(2 Thess 2:15) that the apostles handed on to them in addition to the scriptures.

How does one find out if a tradition is apostolic or not?

Here is a paper that explain it better then I could.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/2canons.htm


I cannot agree with following anything anyone made up(like sola scriptura) because it needs to come from Jesus, his apostles and his Church. There can be no justification for what Luther tried to do even if parts of the church had fallen into serious abuses. You clean the plate if its dirty, You do not break the plate and get a new one. especially if its Jesus who gave you the plate to begin with. To me Luther insulted Christ and slapped him in the face by replacing the apostolic teaching of scripture, tradition, and Church with sola scriptura. I do not care if initially his intention were good. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You seem to misunderstand our concept of praying to saints. We do not pray to saints instead of Christ. It is not a either or. Its a both and situation. We pray to God first and foremost. But we also ask our departed brothers and sisters to pray for our intention to. it is no different to us than asking a person here on earth to pray for us. Intercession in the body of Christ is a good thing(1 Tim 2:1). It never takes away from Christ. It is because we are int he body of Christ that we can offer our prayers for one another. At least that is how we see it.

Prayer sent out to heaven can be a request and worship or it can simply be a request. Catholics do not worship saints. We simply recognize what God has done for them and honor them and ask them to pray for us. If that is a form of worship than no one should ever be honored or ask another human being to pray for them again. Revelation is book of the bible that has many polyvalent meanings. One passage can have many meanings. Like a good onion has many layers. We Catholics do see a this verse in rev as having a spiritual sense that alludes to heavenly and saintly intercession. But even if it didn't that would not matter. Praying to saints is a practice that has that we believe is a tradition handed down from the apostles. Nearly all the early Christians did it and no one really argued against it. It was always assumed to be apostolic by the Christians.

God does not have to wait for a saint to deliver him a prayer. He hears us but he also hears their prayers for us.


I agree revenece and Glory should go to God. But reverence and Glory can also go other human beings who are in the body of Christ and serve God as scripture shows many times. Think of it this way. When I honor a Person in the Body of Christ i do not take away from Christ honor. When you go to the art gallery and you look at and appreciate a picture that Monet painted do you insult Monet? No way. By honoring his work you honor him. Catholics look at honoring the saints the same way. We honor them and give them glory because of the work Christ did in them by his grace. They are our role models to follow. like St Paul who is in heaven and has faught the good fight by Gods grace. We look to his struggle and relate it to our own and we look to what God did for him because of Gods grace. And we simply ask them to pray for us.

That is what true devotion to saints is all about from a Catholic perspective. I hope that helps.

I am a Catholic theology student. I appreciate your inquiry. About 50% of my friends are protestant and I have been to baptist and Lutheran services many times. I even have friends who are Baptist ministers. So I can appreciate your questions as they have asked many of the same.

May God bless you always.

In the Risen Christ our King through the Queen Mother Mary,
Athanasias

 

[Athanasias]

I find it interesting that many Catholics seem to use semantics when discussing words like prayer, worship, etc. You can dissect it and try to justify it all you want, it still makes me very uncomfortable.

This seems strange to me. You argued that God does not glorify other human beings. When I show you that Jesus himself did glorify his mother as he fulfilled the law perfectly you just dismiss it. I found my response to be completly biblical. I do not understand.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Hi Athanasias,
I'm having a seriously difficult time reading and posting threads at the moment, due to site issues. I'll respond to your post as soon as things get back to normal.

One statement off the top of my head, though. Luther never intended to break away from the Catholic Church, he was driven to it.

 

[Athanasias]

Hi Athanasias,
I'm having a seriously difficult time reading and posting threads at the moment, due to site issues. I'll respond to your post as soon as things get back to normal.

One statement off the top of my head, though. Luther never intended to break away from the Catholic Church, he was driven to it.

Your right. At first his intentions were good. He intended to reform the abuses. But his mistake was when he tried to reform the Holy Doctrine that was passed on by Jesus and the apostles. Doctrine cannot change, however the pratcies of abuses can. This is why he was excommunicated from the Catholic church. He should have tried to reform the church like St Francis of Assisi and many other saints did and start a holy order and live and teach the example of a real Christian life. Sola scriptura was a new invention that did not even have roots in the scripture or tradition of the church for the first 1500 years. The counter reformation cleaned up the abuses. Both parties in reality were to blame for the reformation. There were Bad popes, abuses in doctrines, and lax morals and faith in certain parts of Europe, Although there were also many devout saints at the time and good clergy too.

Luther by inventing sola scriptura and sola fide essentially threw the baby out with the bath water. His excommunication was his own fault. His intentions were good initially.

At least thats the Catholic take on it.