Immaculate conception of Mary?

[truefiction1]

So what about Mary’s mother? Was she sinless? If not, how could Mary possibly develop into a perfect and sinless person if her own mother was sinful?

It was by God's mysterious multigenerational process of election that a woman such as Mary would ultimately come to be. Mary's own parents, Joachim and Anna, were a couple who truly loved and were faithful to God, and had dedicated Mary to God's service from her childhood. Throughout history, since the failure of Eve and Adam to accept their vocation of complete obedience to God, the Holy Spirit has worked to prepare a one holy enough to be primary caregiver to the Son of God. This person is the woman, Mary; she who bore the incarnate Word of God and bonded with the infant Jesus through her holy mothering, which depended upon her obedience to God.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

It was by God's mysterious multigenerational process of election that a woman such as Mary would ultimately come to be. Mary's own parents, Joachim and Anna, were a couple who truly loved and were faithful to God, and had dedicated Mary to God's service from her childhood. Throughout history, since the failure of Eve and Adam to accept their vocation of complete obedience to God, the Holy Spirit has worked to prepare a one holy enough to be primary caregiver to the Son of God. This person is the woman, Mary; she who bore the incarnate Word of God and bonded with the infant Jesus through her holy mothering, which depended upon her obedience to God.

Where is your source for all of this information?

 

[Arsenios]

That is completely false! Where in the bible does it say Mary was sinless? The answer is simply it dosent.

The problem with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that it is not taught in the Bible. The Bible nowhere describes Mary as anything but an ordinary human female whom God chose to be the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ. Mary was undoubtedly a godly woman (Luke 1:28). Mary was surely a wonderful wife and mother. Jesus definitely loved and cherished His mother (John 19:27). The Bible gives us no reason to believe that Mary was sinless. In fact, the Bible gives us every reason to believe that Jesus Christ is the only Person who was not “infected” by sin and never committed a sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5).

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception originated out of confusion over how Jesus Christ could be born sinless if He was conceived inside of a sinful human female. The thought was that Jesus would have inherited a sinful nature from Mary had she been a sinner. In contrast to the Immaculate Conception, the biblical solution to this problem is that Jesus Himself was miraculously protected from being polluted by sin while He was inside Mary's womb. If God was capable of protecting Mary from sin, would He not be able to protect Jesus from sin? Therefore, Mary being sinless is neither necessary nor biblical.

The Roman Catholic Church argues that the Immaculate Conception is necessary because without it, Jesus would have been the object of His own grace. The thought goes like this – for Jesus to have been miraculously preserved from sin, which itself would be an act of grace, would mean God essentially “graced Himself.” The word grace means “unmerited favor.” Grace is giving someone something he or she does not deserve. God performing a miracle in preserving Jesus from sin is not “grace.” In no sense could Jesus possibly be infected with sin. He was perfect and sinless humanity joined with sinless divinity. God cannot be infected or affected by sin, as He is perfectly holy. This same truth applies to Jesus. It did not take “grace” to protect Jesus from sin. Being God incarnate, Jesus was in His essence “immune” from sin.

So, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is neither biblical nor necessary. Jesus was miraculously conceived inside Mary, who was a virgin at the time. That is the biblical concept of the virgin birth. The Bible does not even hint that there was anything significant about Mary’s conception. If we examine this concept logically, Mary’s mother would have to be immaculately conceived as well. How could Mary be conceived without sin if her mother was sinful? The same would have to be said of Mary’s grandmother, great-grandmother, and so on. So, in conclusion, the Immaculate Conception is not a biblical teaching. The Bible teaches the miraculous virgin conception of Jesus Christ, not the immaculate conception of Mary.

I agree with you that the Roman Catholic Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is false...

That doe NOT imply that the Mother of God on earth sinned...

Why was She a virgin in your view?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

That is completely false!
Where in the bible does it say Mary was sinless?
The answer is simply it doesn't.

The Church did not write much about her in the Bible...

But She is the Mother of us all...

She became the Mother of John, yes?

Arsenios

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The Church did not write much about her in the Bible...

But She is the Mother of us all...

She became the Mother of John, yes?

Arsenios

Apparently nobody wrote much about Mary but for some odd reason the Roman Catholic Church knows everything about her.

 

[prodromos]

Apparently nobody wrote much about Mary but for some odd reason the Roman Catholic Church knows everything about her.

Actually the little that Rome knows of Mary's life they received from the Church in Jerusalem. Everything else they've come up with is pious speculation.

 

[justcoolforyou]

Where is your source for all of this information?

This makes since of the long process it took for the redeemer to come to his people .biblically he was making them more prefect as each generation past. Mary is the New Eve as seen in the gospel of john.

Early church view on this;

"he is born of Mary, the fair ewe,"
St. Melito of Sardis, Easter Homily, (SC 123).

 

[justcoolforyou]

Where is your source for all of this information?

H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe." Melito de Sardo, Easter Homily (c. A.D. 177).

 

[truefiction1]

Where is your source for all of this information?

If you can see my avatar (up and to the left) then you are looking at some of my primary sources for this information. But the "Protoevangelium of James" is a part of the Tradition of the Church containing more details about the events leading up to the Incarnation than most of our contemporaries in the diverse Protestant traditions are aware of. As far as my comments about the critical role that motherhood plays in the development of a spiritually healthy person, just ask any serious doctor of human psychology about the role of "attachment" in the creation of healthy brains during infancy. The more one learns about the sort of creature we are, the more obvious it becomes that our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ had an exceptional mother.

 

[Rhamiel]

Apparently nobody wrote much about Mary but for some odd reason the Roman Catholic Church knows everything about her.

it is not an "odd" reason
did anyone write about what happened at your Christmas party?
no?
but you know what happened
why is that?
because you were there

the ancient Churches understand these things because we were there
we are not relying on the musings of northern Europeans from the 15th Century, but rather on what was taught by the Apostles and those who learned from the Apostles

 

[prodromos]

Take it up with Arsenios. He's Eastern Orthodox.

You misinterpret what he has posted because you read it through the lense of the Western teaching re original sin.

 

[prodromos]

The Church has taught from the beginnings that Mary was sinless...

That is completely false! Where in the bible does it say Mary was sinless? The answer is simply it dosent.

The Bible is not the Church. Your response is nonsensical

 

[Standing Up]

This makes since of the long process it took for the redeemer to come to his people .biblically he was making them more prefect as each generation past. Mary is the New Eve as seen in the gospel of john.

Early church view on this;

"he is born of Mary, the fair ewe,"
St. Melito of Sardis, Easter Homily, (SC 123).

Interesting, once the whole quote is given.

This is He who took a bodily form in the Virgin, and was hanged upon the tree, and was buried within the earth, and suffered not dissolution; He who rose from the place of the dead, and raised up men from the earth-from the grave below to the height of heaven. This is the Lamb that was slain; this is the Lamb that opened not His mouth. This is He who was born of Mary, fair sheep of the fold.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/melito.html

Clearly, Melito agrees that the virgin conceived and bore (to term) Christ (took bodily form in the virgin). But was born, not of the virgin, but of Mary.

 

[justcoolforyou]

Interesting, once the whole quote is given.

This is He who took a bodily form in the Virgin, and was hanged upon the tree, and was buried within the earth, and suffered not dissolution; He who rose from the place of the dead, and raised up men from the earth-from the grave below to the height of heaven. This is the Lamb that was slain; this is the Lamb that opened not His mouth. This is He who was born of Mary, fair sheep of the fold.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/melito.html

Clearly, Melito agrees that the virgin conceived and bore (to term) Christ (took bodily form in the virgin). But was born, not of the virgin, but of Mary.

He is the mute lamb,
he is the slain lamb,
he is born of Mary, the fair ewe,
he is taken from the flock
and delivered over to immolation
and slain in the evening
and buried in the night;
who was broken on the wood,
was not corrupted in the earth,
he rose from the dead,
and raised man from the depths of the tomb….

He it is who made heaven and earth,
who formed man in the beginning,
who was announced by the law and the prophets,
who became incarnate in a Virgin,

The Bible is not the Church. Your response is nonsensical

 

[Arsenios]

If you can see my avatar (up and to the left) then you are looking at some of my primary sources for this information. But the "Protoevangelium of James" is a part of the Tradition of the Church containing more details about the events leading up to the Incarnation than most of our contemporaries in the diverse Protestant traditions are aware of. As far as my comments about the critical role that motherhood plays in the development of a spiritually healthy person, just ask any serious doctor of human psychology about the role of "attachment" in the creation of healthy brains during infancy. The more one learns about the sort of creature we are, the more obvious it becomes that our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ had an exceptional mother.

An online translation for the Proto-Evangelion of James is:
http://www.asu.edu/courses/rel376/total-readings/james.pdf

The text is dated at 140AD, plus or minus, and is well within the time for the transmission of an oral history, and was well received within the Church by those through whom the Faith had been transmitted by the Apostles of Christ.

The teaching of the Blessed Virgin is lowness of soul and inner stillness in prayer in one's truly personal relationship with God... "For behold! He hath given regard to the lowness of his handmaiden..." Hence, Her Prayer was in silence within, without words, and in that part of the human soul from which thoughts proceed, but which is itself prior to thought, the part of the heart of man that directly apprehends God...

Those of you, [and I should add, especially Protestants], who have had direct encounter(s) with God, when you recall those encounters, will recognize the fundamentally radical nature of one's own reception of this presence as being void of mental chatter, and even questions...

And while the Proto-Evangelion of James is not Scripture, it is well accepted by the Church Fathers from the beginnings, and those Fathers were LIONS regarding anything that smacked of heresy - Minor deviations were not tolerated AT ALL... And IF you decide to read this work, and IF you keep your Bible right alongside it as you are reading, you will find that it is merely an expansion without contradiction that helps illumine the Biblical text...

She is OUR Mother, for She is the Mother of OUR Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ... And we are MEMBERS of the very Body of Him Who IS Her Son in the flesh... She is one of the UNSEARCHABLE RICHES encountered in Holy Writ, and it is She who compensates us for the mothers we all have in their fallen states and ours, ("For in sins did my mother bear me...) because of our virtually orphaned state as children who are developmentally disabled in our own up-bringing... Really good mothers are really hard to find... And Fathers the more so...

Enough!

Arsenios

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Hold on...let me check with my advisor on this issue.

 

[Standing Up]

And while the Proto-Evangelion of James is not Scripture, it is well accepted by the Church Fathers from the beginnings, and those Fathers were LIONS regarding anything that smacked of heresy - Minor deviations were not tolerated AT ALL... And IF you decide to read this work, and IF you keep your Bible right alongside it as you are reading, you will find that it is merely an expansion without contradiction that helps illumine the Biblical text...

The only true thing true in that paragraph is PoJ is not scripture.

It was Origen who "blessed" the PoJ. Clement of Alexandria rejected it before him, as did others after, like Pope Gelasus (sic), and Jerome, and others. IIRC, Aquinas also rejected it as spurious nonsense.

One reason is PoJ contradicts scripture in numerous places, one of which is the mid-wife idea.

 

[Standing Up]

Interesting, once the whole quote is given.

This is He who took a bodily form in the Virgin, and was hanged upon the tree, and was buried within the earth, and suffered not dissolution; He who rose from the place of the dead, and raised up men from the earth-from the grave below to the height of heaven. This is the Lamb that was slain; this is the Lamb that opened not His mouth. This is He who was born of Mary, fair sheep of the fold.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/melito.html

Clearly, Melito agrees that the virgin conceived and bore (to term) Christ (took bodily form in the virgin). But was born, not of the virgin, but of Mary.

To add, it is Cyril of Jerusalem who also picks up the same point, saying let the female virgins glory because of the virgin's nine months. The virgin conceived and bore; Christ was born normally from Mary.

 

[truefiction1]

The only true thing true in that paragraph is PoJ is not scripture.

It was Origen who "blessed" the PoJ. Clement of Alexandria rejected it before him, as did others after, like Pope Gelasus (sic), and Jerome, and others. IIRC, Aquinas also rejected it as spurious nonsense.

One reason is PoJ contradicts scripture in numerous places, one of which is the mid-wife idea.

Writing a detail that was not included in Scripture is not necessarily a contradiction of scripture. If that were the case, then the four Gospels contradict each other. Just look closely at the four very different narratives describing the Resurrection of Christ in each of the Gospels. You should see what I mean.

The Church realizes that many details provided in this apocryphal account are true, because of Her ongoing experiences in the mystical and miraculous Life in Christ. The PoJ is rejected by the Church as Scripture, but not regarded as worthless. Aquinas is a post-schism scholastic writer and his opinion about this has no authority in the Tradition of the Church.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

So was Jesus 100% God or some part man/ some part God?

If He was 100% God in Flesh, then it would only mean his Spirit was God. The Spirit of Man was too weak to even withstand the presence of God including Moses who could only look at God's back.

It made 100% sense to say, John 14:12-18, "
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

So if He's 100% God, then no mankind participation would be necessary. If Man was necessary the immaculate conception could be saying, "Mary being a goddess/something of the nature." If He's 100% God but had to come to in the flesh for the sake of undoing what Adam did then he had to come back 100% pure.

So the work of his conception was 100% Holy Spirit. In that way, He would conquer the World and temptations that faced man from a God's Perspective not from Man ... for him to have been 100% sinless.

More so, it explains why He was able to be Human at the point of death. For him to have left his Church with the Holy Spirit, He knew He needed to leave us 100% pure too through the cleansing of His blood and the Salvation by Grace using his Holy Spirit.

The LORD Could have never been anything man!!! because the Spirit is either God's or of Evil. The Holy Spirit comes to lives in the heart because that's where everything is. In fact, Mary must have been under 100% surveillance of the Holy Spirit (sorry I don't know if that's okay). But the conception was GOD's alone.

The same way he breathed his Image into the clay to form man, the same way he breathed His son into flesh. Don't suggest something like Goddess!!! The LORD left us his HOLY SPIRIT as our Helper so that we won't be like Orphans!

John 14:16-18, "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you.18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.