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I put the evidence you requested right in front of your nose and you ask where it is.
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Albion is correct.
The feast day celebrating the conception of Mary started much earlier, but it was not until much later that the name was changed by the Catholic Church to the feast of the "immaculate conception".
Albion is correct.
The feast day celebrating the conception of Mary started much earlier, but it was not until much later that the name was changed by the Catholic Church to the feast of the "immaculate conception"..
It is an interesting question, and I haven't been able to find the answer. Yes, it's easy to find when it started (Middle Ages), and what it means (Mary's conception, not Jesus'), and so on, but why she would be said to "be the" Immaculate Conception like that remains unexplained.
You know the mythology, I'm sure, where Mary is believed to have described herself that way during one of her apparitions (Lourdes, I think)...but this happened after the term was already in use.
Yes, I often think that as I read the posts directed to me.Ignorance is bliss!
Yes, I often think that as I read the posts directed to me.
Some posters appear not even to know what "Medieval" or "Dark Ages" mean as terms, while others are absolutely convinced that if something is similar to what they're arguing for, well, it must be the same thing!Most of the passages you quoted are examples of that.
For your homework, please provide the greater context for all of the above quotes, ie. links to each of the texts which have been referenced.Albion's claim was not that the Catholic Church changed the name of the feast, but that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception "started" in the Middle Ages.
As far as the Feast of the Conception of Mary... do you think Mary's Conception was holy before this Feast of her Conception was celebrated?
Also, when--from the Eastern Orthodox perspective--did the Church's primary name become "Orthodox" rather than "Catholic"?
Here is some of the evidence--as cited by concretecamper--that the early Church did believe in the Immaculate Conception:
"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).
"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one."Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).
"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).
"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).
"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).
"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).
"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever." Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).
"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).
http://scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-II
For your homework, please provide the greater context for all of the above quotes, ie. links to each of the texts which have been referenced.
Why? Are you?Are you having trouble looking them up?
As holy as the conception of St John the Baptist, which the Church also celebrates.As far as the Feast of the Conception of Mary... do you think Mary's Conception was holy before this Feast of her Conception was celebrated?
The Church was referred to as Orthodox a number of times prior to the schism.Also, when--from your perspective--did the Church's primary name become "Orthodox" rather than "Catholic"?
Why? Are you?
I'm not going to waste my time looking them up as I was not the one who put them out there in the first place. Since you present them as evidence, it is incumbent on you to provide the means for others to read them in their context.
As holy as the conception of St John the Baptist, which the Church also celebrates.
The Church was referred to as Orthodox a number of times prior to the schism.
I find it very curious thay many saints venerated by the Orthodox claim Mary was Immaculate, pure, without stain.....what has changed?
Yes, I often think that as I read the posts directed to me.
Some posters appear not even to know what "Medieval" or "Dark Ages" mean as terms, while others are absolutely convinced that if something is similar to what they're arguing for, well, it must be the same thing!Most of the passages you quoted are examples of that.
The Church was referred to as Orthodox a number of times prior to the schism.
Nothing has changed, you simply read their statements through the lense of the Latin doctrine regarding "original sin", thus you understand them differently.I find it very curious thay many saints venerated by the Orthodox claim Mary was Immaculate, pure, without stain.....what has changed?
With a capital O?
Are you sure about that? It seems to me that "catholic" wasn't used as a noun for a very long time.What they unanimously did do was call the Church "Catholic" with a capital C.
It is the same thing, but only expressed in different terms. I suppose the best you can do is make up a convenient argument against the historical facts which refute your blind conjecture.
"Blind Conjecture" That's a good one,especially since I provided the references, including from Roman Catholic sources, showing that I was right.
Yes, with a capital O.
Are you sure about that? It seems to me that "catholic" wasn't used as a noun for a very long time.
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