Imagining Determinism

[Patzak]

Yeah, so here's another "free will" thread. I'm not so much interested in discussion here, I would only like to hear how those of you who argue for free will imagine a hypothetical deterministic world.

I'm asking this because I have a nagging suspicion that at least some of the free will proponents hold a totally different view of determinism than me and its other proponents. I guess I've just seen one too many "robot" or "puppet" metaphor and I'm curious whether you really consider determinism to be a sort of a "help, help, I can't control myself, I'm a puppet!" scenario, or are you thinking of at least roughly the same thing as I am.

So, go ahead: what would a causally completely determined universe look like? How would you (or anybody else) feel living in such a universe? Would anything be missing from it?

 

[elman]

Yeah, so here's another "free will" thread. I'm not so much interested in discussion here, I would only like to hear how those of you who argue for free will imagine a hypothetical deterministic world.

I'm asking this because I have a nagging suspicion that at least some of the free will proponents hold a totally different view of determinism than me and its other proponents. I guess I've just seen one too many "robot" or "puppet" metaphor and I'm curious whether you really consider determinism to be a sort of a "help, help, I can't control myself, I'm a puppet!" scenario, or are you thinking of at least roughly the same thing as I am.

So, go ahead: what would a causally completely determined universe look like? How would you (or anybody else) feel living in such a universe? Would anything be missing from it?

The ability to make a chioce to be loving or unloving.

 

[Osiris]

The ability to make a chioce to be loving or unloving.

I don't understand the response... are you saying that the ability to choose to be a loving person or not would be something which would be explained in a deterministic universe? How is this different than how you explain freewill?

 

[levi501]

So, go ahead: what would a causally completely determined universe look like?

a lot like the universe were in now.

 

[EverlastingMan]

Such a world would be perfectly normal. There would be nothing missing from it as far as we knew. We might go on thinking we made decisions, or we might not. We not having a free will would not make those choices; some other mechanism, god, natural selection, random firing of neurons in our brain*, would.
*Not to say that these last two mechanisms are entities, just that we wouldn't be making the decisions.

 

[elman]

I don't understand the response... are you saying that the ability to choose to be a loving person or not would be something which would be explained in a deterministic universe? How is this different than how you explain freewill?

I am saying that what would be missing in a universe in which we had no ability to make choices would be the inability to love or not love. Since we would have no ability to chose to help someone in need and no ability to refuse to help someone in need, we would be unable to love or refuse to love.

 

[elman]

Such a world would be perfectly normal. There would be nothing missing from it as far as we knew. We might go on thinking we made decisions, or we might not. We not having a free will would not make those choices; some other mechanism, god, natural selection, random firing of neurons in our brain*, would.
*Not to say that these last two mechanisms are entities, just that we wouldn't be making the decisions.

Why should we believe the ability to make choices is an illusion?

 

[EverlastingMan]

I am not saying we should, or even that it is, personally I think we can make choices. However let us say that in this world we really have no free will; there are not only people who think that we don't have a will, and are correct in this hypothetical world, but there are also those who think we do. The latter group could be called illusional, though I wouldn't call it that.

 

[D McCloud]

Why should we believe the ability to make choices is an illusion?

Because of reductionism. "The sum of the whole is not greater than its parts." When you live in a society based on interacting and encouraging competition, it appears as if we all are making free choices. Look at each life individually, and you'll see our choices aren't so free.

 

[EverlastingMan]

Except here we are talking about a theoretical world, lets not make it into a debate about free-will. There are already plenty of threads for that.

 

[D McCloud]

The ability to make a chioce to be loving or unloving.

You don't consciously choose to be loving or unloving. Love is an emotion, you don't choose your emotions.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I am saying that what would be missing in a universe in which we had no ability to make choices would be the inability to love or not love. Since we would have no ability to chose to help someone in need and no ability to refuse to help someone in need, we would be unable to love or refuse to love.

I think that you might be mixing up determinism and fatalism. Otherwise nothing of what you are arguing would follow.

Just an idea ...

 

[Illuminatus]

Because of reductionism. "The sum of the whole is not greater than its parts." When you live in a society based on interacting and encouraging competition, it appears as if we all are making free choices. Look at each life individually, and you'll see our choices aren't so free.

I take it you don't have much regard for emergance, then?

 

[EverlastingMan]

I think that you might be mixing up determinism and ism. Otherwise nothing of what you are arguing would follow.

Just an idea ...

No, according to christians Love is an act of the will. If there is no free will then there is no love, as they define it.

 

[Patzak]

That's weird. If anything, I'd say that emotions aren't a very good example of something that would require free will. Although, I guess one could define TRUE love as a willful act. Though I think it would still be completely indistinguishable from non-willed love.

 

[EverlastingMan]

Christians do have a purely "natural love", but this is more lust to them.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

No, according to christians Love is an act of the will. If there is no will then there is no love, as they define it.

Nobody denies will - at least I don't. *Free* will is something else entirely.

 

[PapaLandShark]

Yeah, so here's another "free will" thread. I'm not so much interested in discussion here, I would only like to hear how those of you who argue for free will imagine a hypothetical deterministic world.

I'm asking this because I have a nagging suspicion that at least some of the free will proponents hold a totally different view of determinism than me and its other proponents. I guess I've just seen one too many "robot" or "puppet" metaphor and I'm curious whether you really consider determinism to be a sort of a "help, help, I can't control myself, I'm a puppet!" scenario, or are you thinking of at least roughly the same thing as I am.

So, go ahead: what would a causally completely determined universe look like? How would you (or anybody else) feel living in such a universe? Would anything be missing from it?

What, roughly, are you thinking of outside the "help help I'm a puppet!" mentality then?

 

[EverlastingMan]

Nobody denies will - at least I don't. *Free* will is something else entirely.

Well insert free before will in my post then. There must be free will because they must be allowed to choose to love or not love. I do not fully understand the distinction you are making.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Well insert free before will in my post then. There must be free will because they must be allowed to choose to love or not love. I do not fully understand the distinction you are making.

The distinction is what is discussed: Determinism.

And still, I don't see how it would follow that we would be unable to love if determinism is true. By declaration?