Imagine

[KCDAD]

John Lennon penned this song more than 30 years ago. Could we stop talking about heaven and hell as if they were something we knew anything about, AND as if anything we say or believe about them makes any difference to the world we live in today?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8086785798894908281

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Whether you believe they are real or not, that the soul is eternal or not, whether you believe faith, works or grace gets you there... isn't the message of The Gospel about our lives in this world?

Shouldn't we live our lives as if this is the only gift of life we have been given by The Creator of the Universe, and honor the giving and the giver (as well the gift), by claiming and living the abundant life of joy and peace promised to us?

 

[JGL53]

As opposed to what the late Jerry Falwell preached?

Sounds ok to me. I would agree something more should be done to convince millions of people around the world that the word "christian" is not a dirty word - more so than what is being presently done.

 

[scraparcs]

Giver aside, sure, live this life as a gift and a precious jewel, as it's the one we know we have.

 

[training4utopia]

So you've replaced the Holy word of God and what He has to say on the matter, with a John Lennon song????? Say what you say, this is heresy bottom line. Anyone with a hint of theological background into the proper meaning of scripture will know this can't fly. I'll listen to what God says, not lennon. Also if you say stuff like "regardless of your faith" and etc.... thats not fair. Becuase you're killing the oppositions view point before they can speak based on the assumption that you're perfectly correct. It would be no different than me saying "regardless of your agnostic watered down and liberal views, you should shut your mouth and accept what I just said and bow down to my logic". Though you were obviously not as blunt as that, it is what you did. Later.

 

[themuzicman]

I think the concept of an eternal heaven and hell give us a sense of purpose regarding morality. While we might claim that living a moral life would bring the most benefits in this life, we all can look around us and see that's not necessarily the case, and eventually either total hedonism or tyrannical totalitarianism would take over, depending on whether the individual or the state won the battle for control.

That's what I imagine when I consider no heaven, no hell.

However, with a sense of what we do in this life mattering after we die, there is a significant motivation to do what is morally right now, both for the purpose of seeking the benefits in this life, and the benefit of living in the afterlife.


Muz

 

[KCDAD]

So you've replaced the Holy word of God and what He has to say on the matter, with a John Lennon song????? Say what you say, this is heresy bottom line. Anyone with a hint of theological background into the proper meaning of scripture will know this can't fly. I'll listen to what God says, not lennon. Also if you say stuff like "regardless of your faith" and etc.... thats not fair. Becuase you're killing the oppositions view point before they can speak based on the assumption that you're perfectly correct. It would be no different than me saying "regardless of your agnostic watered down and liberal views, you should shut your mouth and accept what I just said and bow down to my logic". Though you were obviously not as blunt as that, it is what you did. Later.

You hypocrite... you give the words of some body that may have lived 5000 years ago the honor of being "the word of God and yet deny that this same God couldn't speak to us through another "sinner" in our own lifetime? (I'm sure Moses' and Saul of Tarsus' contemporaries were not very accepting of anything he had to say either)

All I did was ask a couple of questions... made you nervous, eh?

 

[KCDAD]

I think the concept of an eternal heaven and hell give us a sense of purpose regarding morality. While we might claim that living a moral life would bring the most benefits in this life, we all can look around us and see that's not necessarily the case, and eventually either total hedonism or tyrannical totalitarianism would take over, depending on whether the individual or the state won the battle for control.

That's what I imagine when I consider no heaven, no hell.

However, with a sense of what we do in this life mattering after we die, there is a significant motivation to do what is morally right now, both for the purpose of seeking the benefits in this life, and the benefit of living in the afterlife.


Muz

Great motivation, eh? You think you can fool God? If the only reason you feed the hungry and clothe the naked and visit the sick is because you want to go to heaven and avoid hell... how is that anything about love, and not all about selfishness?

 

[Catherineanne]

John Lennon penned this song more than 30 years ago. Could we stop talking about heaven and hell as if they were something we knew anything about, AND as if anything we say or believe about them makes any difference to the world we live in today?

I think that it is perfectly possible - indeed even essential - to talk about heaven and hell in the context of present day life, just as much as about our future existence. Simply refraining from escatological language will not help in any way.

As for John Lennon, there is another part to this same song:

Nothing to kill or die for
and no religion too.

Personally, I am with Gandhi. There is no cause for which I am prepared to kill, but I am most certainly ready to die for that which I believe in. Fortunately for most of us, that is not our calling. But it is certainly reality for many Christians, even today.

Which is what happened to Lennon in the end, isn't it? He paid the price for standing up for what he believed in. Either his death is meaningless, or else it is a confirmation of his own integrity. If his truth were not so powerful, he would not have had to die. Same as Christ.

Nothing to kill for. Absolutely. Nothing to die for?

Well, you decide. We all have to die some day, and it can either have meaning or none, depending on how we choose to live in the meantime.

 

[themuzicman]

Great motivation, eh? You think you can fool God? If the only reason you feed the hungry and clothe the naked and visit the sick is because you want to go to heaven and avoid hell... how is that anything about love, and not all about selfishness?

I think you need to start reading things in the way they were intended, rather than finding a way to promote your own holiness by putting others down.

Muz

 

[KCDAD]

I think you need to start reading things in the way they were intended, rather than finding a way to promote your own holiness by putting others down.

Muz

there is a significant motivation to do what is morally right now, both for the purpose of seeking the benefits in this life, and the benefit of living in the afterlife.

Does mean something different than what I responded to?

 

[themuzicman]

there is a significant motivation to do what is morally right now, both for the purpose of seeking the benefits in this life, and the benefit of living in the afterlife.

Does mean something different than what I responded to?

When speaking of the world population as a whole, those who believe in Christ and those who do not, this is a motivation. That's a simple statement of fact. If you wish to deny that acting morally as a response to it's potential eternal benefits, go right ahead, but I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone.

This is what I mean by missing the point. The point isn't whether this SHOULD be the case, but a statement of fact that this IS the case.

of course, you're too busy looking to execute judgment against people you disagree with to actually pay attention to what I said.

What is it that Jesus said "Do not judge...."?

Muz

 

[JGL53]

…As for John Lennon, there is another part to this same song:

Nothing to kill or die for
and no religion too.

Personally, I am with Gandhi on this one. There is no cause for which I am prepared to kill, but I am most certainly ready to die for that which I believe in. Fortunately for most of us, that is not our calling. But it is certainly reality for many Christians, even today.

Which is what happened to Lennon in the end, isn't it? He paid the price for standing up for what he believed in. Either his death is meaningless, or else it is a confirmation of his own integrity. If his truth were not so powerful, he would not have had to die. Same as Christ.

Nothing to kill for. Absolutely. Nothing to die for?

Well, you decide. We all have to die some day, and it can either have meaning or none, depending on how we choose to live in the meantime.

Well, I am not with Gandhi. I would kill in self-defense, or defense of others.

And there are indeed things that I would be willing to die for (but I might mention, e.g., that George Bush, Jr.’s ego is not one of them).

I am with John Lennon simply because I THINK I understand his point. He was stating that his attitude was existentialist. I.e., our lives are a free lunch, so to speak, and we by our decisions and actions will give meaning and purpose to our lives – or we won’t, in which case we would be nihilists or cynics – which is not a good attitude in my opinion. In any case, I won’t be guilted into taking some other person’s word – or accepting the teaching of some human institution -for what worth living or dieing for – which is what I think Lennon was referencing – political and religious fanaticisms.

I certainly believe in living this one life we know we have to the fullest – whether there is some sort of “afterlife” for humans – or not.

 

[JGL53]

When speaking of the world population as a whole, those who believe in Christ and those who do not, this is a motivation. That's a simple statement of fact. If you wish to deny that acting morally as a response to it's potential eternal benefits, go right ahead, but I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone...

You are speaking of morality based ultimately on self-interest, in addition to advocating stick/carrot morality, which may be recommended for disciplining horses, but I think humans should be expected to operate at a higher ethical level.

What is it that Jesus said "Do not judge...."...

The problem isn't Jesus, the problem is that too many christians are perfectly willing to judge other people in inappropriate ways.

Sometimes it seems to me that Jesus himself was not a christian. Gandhi thought as much too, I understand.

 

[KCDAD]

Jesus wasn't a Christian... that would have been a little weird... follow yourself?

 

[Im_A]

John Lennon penned this song more than 30 years ago. Could we stop talking about heaven and hell as if they were something we knew anything about, AND as if anything we say or believe about them makes any difference to the world we live in today?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8086785798894908281

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Whether you believe they are real or not, that the soul is eternal or not, whether you believe faith, works or grace gets you there... isn't the message of The Gospel about our lives in this world?

Shouldn't we live our lives as if this is the only gift of life we have been given by The Creator of the Universe, and honor the giving and the giver (as well the gift), by claiming and living the abundant life of joy and peace promised to us?

i hope my response helps get this back on topic bro.

i agree with your post.

the interesting point that i find with all the talk of supernatural beliefs in God, Jesus and this and that is the facts are, those theological, cosmological, mythological whatever you want to call them, doesn't erradicate the very problem we deal with in the here and now...however we define "sin".

i mean going on a mythological note, even demons knows such things, but that doesn't make "their" "free-will" if they even have one or make whatever, whoever they are, any holier...thus we see the same thing going on with humans.

people proclaiming Jesus, God, heaven defeating hell, and thus they still will find themselves sinning against God, others and themselves.

so i hope i have stayed on topic here, but i figure, well, there is an underlining message here for me. i'll focus on the here and now, and God will lead me to believe in the cosmological/mythological tales as God sees fit, and it may take years upon years or even after i die to know the fullness of such things. i have this life to deal with. this finite but yet beautiful life to be more focused in how i live my everyday life, and to live in the hope of being like the one that i do believe that one can experience God in, Jesus.

thanks for the topic bro.

 

[Catherineanne]

Sometimes it seems to me that Jesus himself was not a christian. Gandhi thought as much too, I understand.

It is perfectly true that Christ was not a Christian. He lived and died a Jew, and his teachings are in line with Pharasaic Jewish beliefs.

The early followers of Christ in Jerusalem, after his death, led by his brother James, worshipped in the Temple, and considered themselves Jews, and called their version of Judaism 'The Way'. It was not until after the fall of Jerusalem, and the subsequent development of Christianity as distinct from Judaism, that a new religion evolved. And I believe it was in Antioch that the term 'Christian' was first used, according to Acts.

Christ himself did not regard his teaching as the beginning of a new faith, but as the continuation of the faith of Moses, Abraham and David. Christians would agree with this, but of course Jews would not.

But Christ was not a Christian, because the term means 'follower of Christ' He cannot follow himself. He was a Jew.

In terms of Gandhi, I believe what he said was that he liked Christ, but he did not like Christians. He was not commenting on whether Christ was or was not a Christian, but whether Christians are faithful to the example that Christ sets. I think few of us would presume to think that we are, and that is a great tragedy.

 

[Catherineanne]

Jesus wasn't a Christian... that would have been a little weird... follow yourself?

Weird or not, it is true. The Bible does not call Christ a Christian.

 

[Catherineanne]

Well, I am not with Gandhi. I would kill in self-defense, or defense of others.

Just about every war in history is claimed as a war of self defence, including the current appalling Iraq debacle.

Ergo, I am with Gandhi.
With the Grace of God, I will not kill.

 

[JGL53]

...In terms of Gandhi, I believe what he said was that he liked Christ, but he did not like Christians. He was not commenting on whether Christ was or was not a Christian, but whether Christians are faithful to the example that Christ sets...

Of course - that was the quote to which I was referring.

Just about every war in history is claimed as a war of self defence, including the current appalling Iraq debacle.

Ergo, I am with Gandhi.
With the Grace of God, I will not kill...

Why drag god into it? It is your free will decision to be a absolutist pacifist.

OK. That's a choice.

 

[-Z-]

To the OP.
I can agree with this to an extent. Christians need to be living out a far more active faith than what many of us do. However, the goal of heaven is why we do it. So echatology, prophecy, and discussion of Heaven and Hell I believe are often necessary. There is no reason to seperate them from active Christianity.

To the posts about killing.
I beleive that personal self defense is the way to go. However, living as a christian, I must accept that my God, '...is a God of war.' Condemning war and all killing is condemning an attirbute of God. Watch yourself.