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I'm trying to figure this out.

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Retep

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Ok, I know Chirst says to love your enimies, and in Matt. 5:38-39 it says, "38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

So... it doesn't mention defending yourself. What about defending another? Please don't leave opinions without verses, =). I really want to know this, and I can't figure it out by myself, thanks.
 

Harlan Norris

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Ok, I know Chirst says to love your enimies, and in Matt. 5:38-39 it says, "38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

So... it doesn't mention defending yourself. What about defending another? Please don't leave opinions without verses, =). I really want to know this, and I can't figure it out by myself, thanks.
Matt;10:37,He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me:and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me....The gospel of Jesus Christ can be boiled down to just the two commandments of Jesus.These are love God with all your heart and all your strength and all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself.The first commandment is to follow the ten commandments to the very best of our ability.Jesus is the only one that actually followed them,but this does not mean we can just abandon them entirely. The second commandment is to do nothing to your neighbor that you would not have him do to you.This is regardless of what he has done.This is the thing not preached in the church now.You are not likely to hear this comming from the pulpit.However, it is the very essence of what it is to be Christian.Without it, we are just like non believers,doing what anyone would do...Here is scripture.Matt;5:43,Ye have heard that it hath been said,thou shalt love thy neighbor ,and hate thine enemy.44,But I say unto you,love your enemies,bless them that curse you,do good to them that hate you,and pray for them which despitefully use you,and persecute you;45,That ye may be the children of your father which is in heaven:for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,and sendeth rain on the just and unjust.46,For if ye love them which love you,what reward have ye?do not even the publicans do the same?47,And if ye salute your brethren only,What do ye more than others?Do not even the publicans so?48,Be ye therefore perfect,even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.....In essence we are to use the platform of the gospel,to sail straight through troubled waters,looking neither right or left,but straight at our goal,which is to be with God in heaven.Forsaking all but Jesus,and his gospel.
 
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carrymeaway06

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Not necessarily, in the NT (forgive me, I cannot remember the verse :eek: )... we are commanded to care for the widows and the orphans. This could apply to much, even with war. Example, THIS war is about the defenseless, no doubt many being widows and orphans. It's a long stretch, but it's true. You asked about the defenseless. No doubt if I saw a child being beat by a parent and I got in the middle to try and stop it, and even if it ended in the attacker's head smashed on the sidewalk... I sure hope it wouldn't be held against me in heaven. Same thing with war. The child can't defend itself. Iraq can't defend itself, Israel can't defend itself. It's up to us to make sure we love our enemies, but "turn the other cheek" doesn't mean let them walk all over you. Jesus got angry, a righteous anger. Because I "love my enemies" DOES NOT MEAN I will allow my enemies to harm my children, my brothers, my parents, my friends, my aunt (whom I support this war in memory of).

Sorry, I'm rambling, I used a verse, if you know where it is, would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Tractor1

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Ok, I know Chirst says to love your enimies, and in Matt. 5:38-39 it says, "38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

So... it doesn't mention defending yourself. What about defending another? Please don't leave opinions without verses, =). I really want to know this, and I can't figure it out by myself, thanks.

My response will be somewhat different than others you'll receive, but I'll present it and allow you to decide its merit.

"This Scripture (Matt. 5:17-48) declares that the law shall not pass until it is fulfilled. This has to do with observance, for it is added: 'Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments . . . shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.' It is the Law of Moses intensified. In so doing, Christ transfers the obligation from the outward act to the attitude of the heart. This intensifies, rather than relieves, its legal character. It carries with it the most scorching condemnation possible to law. The Christian is not under law. He has no other "altar" other than Christ (Heb. 13:10). The altar is always related either to the Mosaic system or to the coming kingdom and is intensely legalistic in character. The child of the kingdom must agree with his adversary quickly, lest he be cast into prison where there is no degree of mercy available (Matt. 5:25-26). To the child of God it is said: 'If possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men' (Rom. 12:17-21). The high standard of generous submission is, in the kingdom teachings, substituted in place of the exact equity of the Law of Moses (Matt. 5:38-48). In place of the principle of an 'eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,' the other cheek is to be turned. This is not to be done as an expression of a high position already received in grace; it is to be done meritoriously that 'ye may be the children of your Father in heaven.' Such relation between men will be required and practiced in the day when the King shall reign in righteousness and Satan is bound. In this portion of the Sermon on the Mount, the extreme legal penalty for wrong doing is imposed (Matt. 5:20-22, 29-30). Is any child of God, under grace, in danger of judgment or the awful penalty of hell fire (John 5:24; 10:28; Rom. 8:1)?" Lewis sperry Chafer, The Believer's Rule of Life, Systematic Theology Vol. IV, ppgs 219-220.

In Christ,
Tracey
 
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Harlan Norris

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My response will be somewhat different than others you'll receive, but I'll present it and allow you to decide its merit.

"This Scripture (Matt. 5:17-48) declares that the law shall not pass until it is fulfilled. This has to do with observance, for it is added: 'Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments . . . shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.' It is the Law of Moses intensified. In so doing, Christ transfers the obligation from the outward act to the attitude of the heart. This intensifies, rather than relieves, its legal character. It carries with it the most scorching condemnation possible to law. The Christian is not under law. He has no other "altar" other than Christ (Heb. 13:10). The altar is always related either to the Mosaic system or to the coming kingdom and is intensely legalistic in character. The child of the kingdom must agree with his adversary quickly, lest he be cast into prison where there is no degree of mercy available (Matt. 5:25-26). To the child of God it is said: 'If possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men' (Rom. 12:17-21). The high standard of generous submission is, in the kingdom teachings, substituted in place of the exact equity of the Law of Moses (Matt. 5:38-48). In place of the principle of an 'eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,' the other cheek is to be turned. This is not to be done as an expression of a high position already received in grace; it is to be done meritoriously that 'ye may be the children of your Father in heaven.' Such relation between men will be required and practiced in the day when the King shall reign in righteousness and Satan is bound. In this portion of the Sermon on the Mount, the extreme legal penalty for wrong doing is imposed (Matt. 5:20-22, 29-30). Is any child of God, under grace, in danger of judgment or the awful penalty of hell fire (John 5:24; 10:28; Rom. 8:1)?" Lewis sperry Chafer, The Believer's Rule of Life, Systematic Theology Vol. IV, ppgs 219-220.

In Christ,
Tracey
Great post! I whole heartedly agree.There be few that see or read the gospel as it is written.We must come back or we will not be saved.
 
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Sennaria

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Not necessarily, in the NT (forgive me, I cannot remember the verse :eek: )... we are commanded to care for the widows and the orphans. This could apply to much, even with war. Example, THIS war is about the defenseless, no doubt many being widows and orphans. It's a long stretch, but it's true. You asked about the defenseless. No doubt if I saw a child being beat by a parent and I got in the middle to try and stop it, and even if it ended in the attacker's head smashed on the sidewalk... I sure hope it wouldn't be held against me in heaven. Same thing with war. The child can't defend itself. Iraq can't defend itself, Israel can't defend itself. It's up to us to make sure we love our enemies, but "turn the other cheek" doesn't mean let them walk all over you. Jesus got angry, a righteous anger. Because I "love my enemies" DOES NOT MEAN I will allow my enemies to harm my children, my brothers, my parents, my friends, my aunt (whom I support this war in memory of).

Sorry, I'm rambling, I used a verse, if you know where it is, would be greatly appreciated.

I think you are referring to Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

And visit here means ἐπισκέπτομαι
episkeptomai
ep-ee-skep'-tom-ahee;
to inspect, that is, (by implication) to select; by extension to go to see, relieve: - look out, visit.
To visit (ἐπισκέπτεσθαι)
See on Mat_25:36. James strikes a downright blow here at ministry by proxy, or by mere gifts of money. Pure and undefiled religion demands personal contact with the world's sorrow: to visit the afflicted, and to visit them in their affliction. “

Sennaria
 
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Sennaria

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So, my question is it wrong to defend those who can't defend themselves even to the point of murder... I mean war?

I found this great article that supports how I feel about war and being a Christian. I have never believed that being a pacifist was Christian-like.

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Defense and War:
A Biblical Perspective
[/FONT]
[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]by Ron McKenzie[/FONT][/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]A key responsibility of the civil government is to protect its citizens from attack by wrongdoers. This involves punishing those who break the law. It also involves defending the nation from every external attacker, including nations, other groups of people or dangerous pests and diseases. All these responsibilities are encompassed in the power of the sword (Romans 13:1-8). Therefore, pacifism is not a Christian option.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Bible gives a nation the right of self-defence. However there are a number of principles which should control the civil government’s exercise of this authority in the fulfilment of its responsibilities.[/FONT]​
  1. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]War is only justified for defence (Romans 13:1-8). It should not be used to expand a nation's boundaries, or to take control of another nation, or to extract trade advantages. This is a fundamental principle. A nation should never need to establish military domination in another region or nation.[/FONT]
  2. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The idea of a Christian Holy War has no basis in Scriptures. The nation of Israel conquered and destroyed the Canaanite nations. This was only done after a specific and direct command from God (Deut 7:1,2). This was a special case where God had a specific purpose in terms of the salvation he planned for Israel. It is not an example that can be followed by Christians or a Christian nation. We should not use war to win people for the gospel. (We should be honest and admit that the crusades were a mistake, however well-intentioned the crusaders may have been).[/FONT]
  3. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]A Christian nation must not have a large "standing army"(Deut 17:16; 1 Kings 10:26-29). An army that is constantly training for war is dangerous, because it will be tempted to find a situation where it can use its skills. The military should not be given too much political power, as they will have a tendency to use war to solve all problems.[/FONT]
  4. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The defence force should take the form of a part-time local militia. The central command structure may be full-time professional so that the defence of the nation can be well organised (Deut 20:5). However, most of the soldiers will be trained civilians who can be called up when a defence force is needed. As they have other interests there will be no danger of them becoming over militant and fighting unnecessary wars. However, because they will be defending their families and friends they will be highly motivated if they are needed. They will be well prepared, but they will be only rarely called upon to fight.[/FONT]
  5. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The militia should be up made of volunteers. Anyone who is faint-hearted or afraid should not be forced to fight (Deut 20:5-9). People who are at a critical stage in their lives should not be forced into military service. For example, men who have recently married, started building a house or started a business should be freed from service, because they would not be focused on the battle.[/FONT]
  6. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The army of a Christian nation will not have offensive weapons (Deut 17:16). God forbade the king from acquiring great numbers of horses for himself. The reason for this was that horses and chariots, at that time, were offensive weapons used for attacking other nations. The defence of the nation would not need large numbers of them. A modern defence force should choose weapons that are best for defensive purposes. [/FONT]
  7. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Only the civil government has authority to declare war. Individuals or companies do not have the authority to commit a nation to war. Any declaration of war must be in accordance with correct legal processes (Deut 20:10).[/FONT]
  8. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]War should always be the last resort. Before declaring war, the civil government should try every means possible to obtain peace (Deut 20:10). We should never forget the horror of war. It is always costly in terms of human suffering. Christians should never glorify war. While it is an honour for a man to give his life to defend his family and community, war is never an ideal solution. A Christian government should be prepared for war, if it is attacked, but it should also hope that it would never have to fight.[/FONT]
  9. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]A Christian nation should always seek God’s will before declaring war. A nation going to war, because it thinks it is right, is being presumptuous (Deut 1:41-44). Presumption is a terrible sin. If the war has God’s blessing, the army is more likely to have success.[/FONT]
  10. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]A Christian government should only declare war if it thinks it has a reasonable chance of success. Jesus said that before a king goes to war, he should sit down and consider whether he can match the army that is coming against him. If not he will send a delegation to ask for terms of peace (Luke 14:31-32), even if this involves a loss of freedom. For Christians freedom is not an absolute value. It may be better to lose freedom to govern, than to lose a large number of lives in an unsuccessful defence. In fact, because Jesus has set us free, we cannot lose our freedom.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Two things should always be remembered,[/FONT]​
    1. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Christianity can survive under extremely hostile environments. It was born in the hostile world of the Roman Empire. In our own time, Christianity has blossomed under the hostility of both the Soviet Union and Communist China. Therefore, Christianity will never be dependent on winning a war for its survival. If a Christian government has no hope of defending against attack, it should surrender, knowing that Christianity will survive.[/FONT]
    2. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]It is God who determines the appointed times of the nations and the boundaries of there habitations. (Acts 17:26, cf Job 12:23, Deut 32:8) If a nation is invaded by another and this is not God’s will, he will not allow the situation to last long. For example, after the Second World War, the Russian Empire took control of most of Eastern Europe. However, because this was contrary to God’s will, that empire had collapsed within fifty years. If a nation is unable to defend itself, all is not lost; God will have his way in the end.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Counting the cost of war, is not just a matter of estimating how many soldiers will be lost. The full cost of the war should be counted. There are generally very few winners in war. The cost for the families of those who die is enormous. For the soldiers who survive the cost can also be high. Many will have injuries that blight their lives. Worse still, war has a desensitising effect on its participants, and good men can be drawn into doing great evil. They will have to live with there consciences. War is also an enormous waste of economic resources. There are actually very few situations serious enough to justify the enormous costs of war.[/FONT]​
  1. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Deut 20:1-5 declares that a small army with God on its side can beat a large well-armed one. A good example of this is Gideon, who defeated a large Midianite army with 300 unarmed men (Judges 7). However, this promise should not be used as a justification for foolish wars.[/FONT]
  2. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Total war, as it has been practised in this last century, is prohibited by the Bible. Those engaged in war are prohibited from attacking and damaging the land (Deut 20). The same protection would apply to women and children. Non-combatants should also be protected.[/FONT]
  3. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]This prohibition makes nuclear war unacceptable. Nuclear weapons would harm the land and non-combatants. The same principle would rule out many modern weapons. Only weapons which can be targeted at combatants or other weapons can be used by a Christian nation. On the other hand, anti-ballistic missile defence systems may be justified, because they are defensive.[/FONT]
  4. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Military alliances are common in the modern world. However these are forbidden over and over again in the Bible. A Christian nation has a covenant with God. It cannot be totally committed to God, and place its faith in another nation for defence (Is 31:1-3). Therefore, defence alliances are not an option for a Christian nation.[/FONT]
  5. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]God determines the appointed times of the nations and the timing of their rule. (Acts 17:26). No nation has the authority to invade another nation to change its government (even if it is evil). A nation cannot even be invaded to establish democracy. (Democracy must come from the hearts of the people, it cannot be enforced from the outside.) Most attempts by great powers to establish "better" government by force in other nations have failed, because the spiritual forces that control the nation have not been defeated (Dan 10:13).[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The principles outlined here allow a nation to defend itself, but there are very severe restrictions on which methods may be used. Likewise there are very strict conditions which must be fulfilled before war may be justified. Almost all modern conflicts would fail to meet these conditions. The Bible recognises the horror of war. There are probably very few situations that would justify the cost of war. It should be an extremely rare event.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The current war in Afghanistan does not fit with these principles. The people who organised the attack on the World Trade Centre, committed a dreadful crime and should be punished as criminals. However, the nation of Afghanistan did not attack the United States. The Taliban did not attack the United States. Afghanistan may be harbouring the criminals who organised the attack, but that is not a justification for war. We may dislike the Taliban intensely, but that does not justify war against them. The United States does not have the right to determine who should govern Afghanistan. (The Taliban gained power through victory in a civil war. This is the same way that the current federal system in the United States was established). The United States is not defending itself against an attack by Afghanistan, so it is not justified in attacking Afghanistan.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The methods of warfare being used in Afghanistan cannot be justified either. Bombs that destroy the land and can kill and maim civilians are forbidden by Deuteronomy 20. The alliance with the ungodly men of the Northern Alliance is also contrary to the Scriptures.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]November 23, 2001[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ron McKenzie [send him mail] is an economist in Christchurch, New Zealand. He is also a Presbyterian minister.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Copyright © 2001 LewRockwell.com[/FONT]​
 
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