I'm tired of the "abolished" argument...

LoveGodsWord · Jan 8, 2022

DamianWarS said:
Christ said he came to fulfill the law not abolish. So let's clear the air

1. Christ came to fulfill the law
2. Christ did not come to abolish the law

now that we got that out of the way can we stop using the word abolished? Christ said he came to fulfill so let's shift the language so we are talking about what Christ said he actually came to do not what he said he wasn't going to do.

let's all agree the law is NOT abolished. Now let's start the conversation on what it means for Christ to fulfill the law (and please, please, please stop using the word abolished because no one is saying that)

Have a read of your thread and look at all the people with the mistaken view trying to promote Gods' law is abolished by claiming it is fulfilled or kept so that we do not have to? Anyway that is not what scripture teaches.

According to the scriptures "fulfilled" in application to Matthew 5:17-20 has two applications. Application one is that Jesus fulfilled all the old covenant Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins, that were prophetic in nature pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah. Application two is that Jesus perfectly obeyed Gods' moral laws (e.g Gods' 10 commandments) so that he can be without sin and God's perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. When viewing Matthew 5:17 the very first thing Jesus says is "Don't think I have come to destroy (G2647 — καταλύω discard, destroy, abolish) the law or the prophets. So we should know right from the beginning that Jesus "fulfilling" Gods' law is not an excuse for us to break Gods' law. Jesus goes on to say that "Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus here is not destroying our obligation to be obedient to God's law he is magnifying Gods' law by applying it to our very thoughts and feelings.

Matthew 5:20 is interesting because on the outside the Scribes and Pharisees as JESUS taught appeared righteous to men. Outwardly blameless in regards to following God's 10 commandments but inwardly they were like dead man bones *Matthew 23:27 full of sin (breaking God's LAW) *Matthew 23:27-28. JESUS says; For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. The scripture in Isaiah 42:21 was posted to show that Jesus came to teach the true meaning of God's Law and that is it is to be applied to the inside out not for appearance to appear righteous to men but being inwardly full of sin and dead mans bones. God reads the heart and knows we are all sick with sin *Matthew 15:19-20; Matthew 12:34-35; Jeremiah 13:23; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Matthew 15:19-20; John 5:42 and in need of a Saviour from SIN. Many do not know the meaning here Matthew 9:12-13.

This is leading to the new covenant promise of a new heart to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; John 5:42; 1 John 5:17-19; 1 John 4:16; 1 John 5:3; 1 John 4:8. We do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42. We need to be born of god to love *1 John 4:7 and partake of the new covenant promise. This is why Jesus teaches in *John 3:3-7 that unless we are made clean from the inside out and born again to love we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. This is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:20 when discussing the Scribes and the Pharisees teaching the application of God's law from the inside out.

Whosoever is born of God to love in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12 does not knowingly practice sin *1 John 3:9; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Romans 3:31; Matthew 22:36-40. This is the good news of the gospels in the new covenant we have a savior to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4. 1 John 3:3-10 is talking about all those who are born again to love and it is love that fulfills God's law in all those who believe and follow God's word in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10. this results in a people that keep God's law (10 commandments) from the inside out. *Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 8:10-12. Unless we are born again to love we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven *John 3:3-7.

…………

So what the conclusion of the matter? Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. God’s law (10 commandments) is not destroyed it is fulfilled and established in the life of a believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in God’s Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4.

Hope this is helpful.

DamianWarS · Jan 8, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Have a read of your thread and looked at all the people with the mistaken view trying to promote Gods' law is abolished by claiming it is fulfilled or kept so that we do not have to? Anyway that is not what scripture teaches.

According to the scriptures "fulfilled" in application to Matthew 5:17-20 has two applications. Application one is that Jesus fulfilled all the old covenant Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins, that were prophetic in nature pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah. Application two is that Jesus perfectly obeyed Gods' moral laws (e.g Gods' 10 commandments) so that he can be without sin and God's perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. When viewing Matthew 5:17 the very first thing Jesus says is "Don't think I have come to destroy (G2647 — καταλύω discard, destroy, abolish) the law or the prophets. So we should know right from the beginning that Jesus "fulfilling" Gods' law is not an excuse for us to break Gods' law. Jesus goes on to say that "Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus here is not destroying our obligation to be obedient to God's law he is magnifying Gods' law by applying it to our very thoughts and feelings.

Matthew 5:20 is interesting because on the outside the Scribes and Pharisees as JESUS taught appeared righteous to men. Outwardly blameless in regards to following God's 10 commandments but inwardly they were like dead man bones *Matthew 23:27 full of sin (breaking God's LAW) *Matthew 23:27-28. JESUS says; For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. The scripture in Isaiah 42:21 was posted to show that Jesus came to teach the true meaning of God's Law and that is it is to be applied to the inside out not for appearance to appear righteous to men but being inwardly full of sin and dead mans bones. God reads the heart and knows we are all sick with sin *Matthew 15:19-20; Matthew 12:34-35; Jeremiah 13:23; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Matthew 15:19-20; John 5:42 and in need of a Saviour from SIN. Many do not know the meaning here Matthew 9:12-13.

This is leading to the new covenant promise of a new heart to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; John 5:42; 1 John 5:17-19; 1 John 4:16; 1 John 5:3; 1 John 4:8. We do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42. We need to be born of god to love *1 John 4:7 and partake of the new covenant promise. This is why Jesus teaches in *John 3:3-7 that unless we are made clean from the inside out and born again to love we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. This is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:20 when discussing the Scribes and the Pharisees teaching the application of God's law from the inside out.

Whosoever is born of god to love in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12 does not knowingly practice sin *1 John 3:9; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Romans 3:31; Matthew 22:36-40. This is the good news of the gospels in the new covenant we have a savior to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4. 1 John 3:3-10 is talking about all those who are born again to love and it is love that fulfills God's law in all those who believe and follow God's word in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10. this results in a people that keep God's law (10 commandments) from the inside out. *Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 8:10-12. Unless we are born again to love we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven *John 3:3-7.

…………

So what the conclusion of the matter? Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. God’s law (10 commandments) is not abolished they are fulfilled and established in the life of a believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in God’s Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4.

Hope this is helpful.

Did you read the OP? The request was to stop using abolish in your counter arguments. Why did you feel the need to ignore this request?

LoveGodsWord · Jan 8, 2022

DamianWarS said:
Did you read the OP? The request was to stop using abolish in your counter arguments. Why did you feel the need to ignore this request?

See post # 41 linked

daq · Jan 8, 2022

guevaraj said:
An "evening" can only occur after the light. Before the light there was "darkness" and not an "evening", those are different words that are not interchangeable. The "evening" of the first day occurred after first light and falls in the middle of the first day. The first day in Genesis below is from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was LIGHT. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Day, as it is generally rendered in Genesis 1:5, is often misleading because people tend to convert that word into either a twelve or twenty-four hour day in their understanding of it. It is better understood to simply transliterate the word in the text, "God called the light, Yom", and therefore yom means light, and not necessarily day.

This light is the light which He spoke when He said, "Let there be light", which is neither the light of the sun, nor the light of the moon, nor the light of the stars, nor the kind of light produced from a lamp or a candle.

DamianWarS · Jan 8, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
See post # 41 linked

That's the post I replied to. Please respect the conditions of the op.

guevaraj · Jan 8, 2022

daq said:
Day, as it is generally rendered in Genesis 1:5, is often misleading because people tend to convert that word into either a twelve or twenty-four hour day in their understanding of it. It is better understood to simply transliterate the word in the text, "God called the light, Yom", and therefore yom means light, and not necessarily day.

Brother, I have struggled to keep the message short and separate the two: the day-half and a weekday, but yom means "day" and not light. There was no need for another word for light, there was already a word for light before God called the light-half "day".

daq said:
This light is the light which He spoke when He said, "Let there be light", which is neither the light of the sun, nor the light of the moon, nor the light of the stars, nor the kind of light produced from a lamp or a candle.

The light of the first day is the light of the sun as God tells us in day four. The reason people think otherwise is because they believe that God created the sun on the fourth day, but the word there means prepared and not created. God explains on the fourth day that needed was the sun from the first day because it establishes the days.

Then God said, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them be signs to mark the seasons, days, and years. Let these lights in the sky shine down on the earth.” And that is what happened. God made (prepared) two great lights—the larger one to govern the day, and the smaller one to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set these lights in the sky to light the earth, to govern the day and night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And evening passed and morning came, marking the fourth day. (Genesis 1:14-19 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

BobRyan · Jan 8, 2022

DamianWarS said:
I'm not banishing any word but katargeo is not the word Christ uses in Mat 5:17.

Ok - I will try to remember only to use it in Rom 3:31

daq · Jan 8, 2022

guevaraj said:
Brother, I have struggled to keep the message short and separate the two: the day-half and a weekday, but yom means "day" and not light. There was no need for another word for light, there was already a word for light before God called the light-half "day".

The light of the first day is the light of the sun as God tells us in day four. The reason people think otherwise is because they believe that God created the sun on the fourth day, but the word there means prepared and not created. God explains on the fourth day that needed was the sun from the first day because it establishes the days.

Then God said, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them be signs to mark the seasons, days, and years. Let these lights in the sky shine down on the earth.” And that is what happened. God made (prepared) two great lights—the larger one to govern the day, and the smaller one to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set these lights in the sky to light the earth, to govern the day and night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And evening passed and morning came, marking the fourth day. (Genesis 1:14-19 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

So God calls the light Yom: and you say yom does not mean light, but instead it means day? Sounds like a paradigm principle that must be upheld despite what God says. See 2 Corinthians 4:5-7, (summoning the Light to shine forth out of the darkness does not mean that the Light was created), the Light is the Truth which enlightens everyone coming into the world, (John 1:1-9).

DamianWarS · Jan 8, 2022

BobRyan said:
Ok - I will try to remember only to use it in Rom 3:31

Which would be best in its own thread

DamianWarS · Jan 9, 2022

daq said:
So God calls the light Yom: and you say yom does not mean light, but instead it means day? Sounds like a paradigm principle that must be upheld despite what God says. See 2 Corinthians 4:5-7, (summoning the Light to shine forth out of the darkness does not mean that the Light was created), the Light is the Truth which enlightens everyone coming into the world, (John 1:1-9).

Finally someone willing to get past the broken record literal discussion and embrace the abstract qualities of creation

Bob S · Jan 9, 2022

Think about this friends. Jesus didn't have to abolish the Law. The Law was the words of the covenant. The Israelite nation broke that covenant time and time again. God being a loving God kept giving those under the covenant chance after chance to abide by the covenant. Finally, God sent His Son into the World to do what man, the Israelites, were not able. Israel abolished that perfect covenant. Jesus redeemed them at Calvary, covered their sins with His own blood and introduced the new and better covenant. The covenant Jesus gave to them and all mankind is not one of thou shalt nots and ritual laws, it is a love covenant. We keep His covenant to us by loving others as He loves us. The old covenant that ended at Calvary certainly doesn't make us lawless in any sense and it is disgusting when anyone mentions that living under the new covenant is lawlessness.

BobRyan · Jan 9, 2022

DamianWarS said:
I'm not banishing any word but katargeo is not the word Christ uses in Mat 5:17.

Ok - I will try to remember only to use it in Rom 3:31

DamianWarS said:
Which would be best in its own thread

On the contrary - your statement is that this thread is about "fulfilling the law"

DamianWarS said:
Now let's start the conversation on what it means for Christ to fulfill the law (and please, please, please stop using the word abolished because no one is saying that)

Which means we need the context and balance of faith that "establishes the Law" in Rom 3:31 rather than nullifying it. It may be the POV that "needs to be avoided" to slant something in a given direction, but that is precisely why this is in a discussion and debate part of the board rather than a "never question my POV" area of the board.

BobRyan · Jan 9, 2022

Bob S said:
Think about this friends. Jesus didn't have to abolish the Law. .

And so He didn't which is Paul says things like -
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Rom 3: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Rom 2:13 "13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus"

future justification is a purely "Gospel" concept.

Bob S · Jan 9, 2022

BobRyan said:
And so He didn't which is Paul says things like -
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Yes, Jesus', God's, command to Love others as He loves us. Love is the great theme of the new covenant.

Rom 3: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Yes, the Royal Law of Love.

Rom 2:13 "13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus"

Yes, the Royal Law of Love.

BobRyan · Jan 9, 2022

Bob S said:
Think about this friends. Jesus didn't have to abolish the Law. .

And so He didn't which is Paul says things like -
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Rom 3: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Rom 2:13 "13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus"

future justification is a purely "Gospel" concept.

Bob S said:
Yes, Jesus', God's, command to Love others as He loves us. Love is the great theme of the new covenant.

Jesus command to love your neighbor Matt 22 - is from the Law of Moses Lev 19:18
Jesus command to love your neighbor Matt 19 - - is from the Law of Moses Lev 19:18 and so in Matt 19 Jesus also shows what other commands (in the TEN) - in the Law of Moses pertain to Lev 19:18

Bob S said:
Yes, the Royal Law of Love.

James 2 argues for the command to Love your neighbor - as found in the Law of Moses Lev 19:18
James 2 then goes on to show some of the other commands in the Law of Moses based on the Lev 19:18 command - as being included in what he calls "The Royal Law".

eleos1954 · Jan 9, 2022

Soyeong said:
The Greek word "dogma" is used 5 times in the NT, and every time that is is used outside of Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15, it refers to man-made rulings of Caesar's decrees (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:1) or the decree of the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:4), so justification needs to be given for why we should interpret Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15 as referring to commands of God. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Torah, which includes laws of God that you just finished saying that were nailed to the cross.

By assuming that Ephesians 2:15 is referring to the law of God instead of commands of men, you are pitting against what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19 as if Paul were calling Jesus a liar.

Keeping in mind that all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160) and reveal aspects of God's eternal nature, which are not temporary or conditional on the Mosaic Covenant. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so the Mosaic Covenant is also a covenant of grace. Abraham was taught how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His law through faith (Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5) and so was Moses (Exodus 33:13). If you agree that God's laws reveal what sin is and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should agree that we should obey them. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law leads us to Christ because experientially know him in the goal of the law, or in other words for how to have a relationship with him, but does not lead us to Christ, so that we can reject him and go back to living in what God has revealed to be sin. We do not earn our righteousness by obeying God's law because that was never the goal of the law. God is trustworthy, so His law therefore also is trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to rely and God's law is to rely on God while you speaking against relying in God's law is speaking relying on God. Rather, relying on God's law brings life and a blessing while refusing to rely on it is what brings death and a cruse (Deuteronomy 30:15-20).

In Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus was asked which commandment out of the Mosaic Law was the greatest, so Jesus answering that question with two commandments that are part of the Mosaic Law should not be understood as being something greater or other than the Mosaic Law. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, idolatry, murder, rape, incest, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for everything else commanded in the Mosaic Law, which is why Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two, so being under the greatest two commandments is the same as being under the Mosaic Law. The moment you try to pick up just the greatest two commandments, all of the other commandments come with because they are all attached.

In Ephesians 2:10, we have been made new Creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying the Mosaic Law lest anyone should boast, doing good works in obedience to it is nevertheless an integral part of our salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Mosaic Law is how the Israelites knew what sin is (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to the Mosaic Law is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of the Mosaic Law.

God did not save the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put them under slavery to His law, but rather it is for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1) and the Mosaic Law is a law of freedom (Psalms 119:45). In Psalms 119:45, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

Loving your neighbor as yourself is found in Leviticus 19:18, which is part of the Mosaic Law.

so my understanding is that you are saying the "laws" that were nailed to the cross were "laws" that man had put in place and not God?

DamianWarS · Jan 9, 2022

BobRyan said:
Ok - I will try to remember only to use it in Rom 3:31

On the contrary - your statement is that this thread is about "fulfilling the law"

Which means we need the context and balance of faith that "establishes the Law" in Rom 3:31 rather than nullifying it. It may be the POV that "needs to be avoided" to slant something in a given direction, but that is precisely why this is in a discussion and debate part of the board rather than a "never question my POV" area of the board.

The "abolish" in question is G2647 kataluó of Mat 5:17. If you want to use other verses to build a point you are free to but for the sake of clarity be explict which "abolish" you're using so that another reading doesn't get confused, in fact I would prefer you don't even use the word and use a different English word since there is such wide c̶o̶n̶f̶u̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ abuse, so use it responsibly. Also bring it back to Mat 5:17 and don't start a side argument that is unrelated.

Bob S · Jan 9, 2022

BobRyan said:
And so He didn't which is Paul says things like -
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Rom 3: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Rom 2:13 "13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus"

future justification is a purely "Gospel" concept.

Jesus command to love your neighbor Matt 22 - is from the Law of Moses Lev 19:18

Jesus command to love your neighbor Matt 19 - - is from the Law of Moses Lev 19:18 and so in Matt 19 Jesus also shows what other commands (in the TEN) - in the Law of Moses pertain to Lev 19:18

James 2 argues for the command to Love your neighbor - as found in the Law of Moses Lev 19:18
James 2 then goes on to show some of the other commands in the Law of Moses based on the Lev 19:18 command - as being included in what he calls "The Royal Law".

Have you never read in scripture that Jesus gave us a new command to love others as He loves us and then He tells us that there is no greater love than to give ones life for someone else. That is exactly what Jesus did for all mankind.

Find that is the Law of Moses.

Clare73 · Jan 9, 2022

Soyeong said:
The Greek word "dogma" is used 5 times in the NT, and every time that is is used outside of Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15, it refers to man-made rulings of Caesar's decrees (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:1) or the decree of the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:4), so justification needs to be given for why we should interpret Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15 as referring to commands of God.

Well, it certainly has nothing to do with how many times it has to be used before it means what it states.

We interpret it as decrees because "decrees" are also "ordinances" or commands (what God has declared/decreed), as in
dogma - Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15),
dikaioma (justification) - Luke 1:6; Romans 1:32, Romans 2:26, Romans 5:16,
diatage - Romans 13:2;
ktisis - 1 Peter 2:13,
paradosis (traditions) - 1 Corinthians 11:2.

God has declared/commanded that the written code (Mosaic law) has been cancelled (Colossians 2:14) and rendered inoperative (Ephesians 2:15).

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Torah,

I don't see anything about the Torah there.

Jeremiah 31:33 refers to the New Covenant and its own laws, of Matthew 22:37-40, which fulfill the Old Covenant laws "and any other commandment there may be." (Romans 13:8-10)

The standard of the Mosaic law is much too low for the New Covenant, which standard is love, and which requires so much more than the Mosaic law.

And could anything be any more clear than the NT revelation that the law was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20; 7:7) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24), and
now that faith in Christ has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:25)?

What is it about God's New Covenant and NT revelation in Christ that you do not understand?

Soyeong · Jan 9, 2022

Clare73 said:
Well, it certainly has nothing to do with how many times it has to be used before it means what it states.

We interpret it as decrees because "decrees" are also "ordinances" or commands (what God has declared/decreed), as in
dogma - Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15),
dikaioma (justification) - Luke 1:6; Romans 1:32, Romans 2:26, Romans 5:16,
diatage - Romans 13:2;
ktisis - 1 Peter 2:13,
paradosis (traditions) - 1 Corinthians 11:2.

God has declared/commanded that the written code (Mosaic law) has been cancelled (Colossians 2:14) and rendered inoperative (Ephesians 2:15).

Every time the Greek word "dogma" is used outside of Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15, it refers to something other than the Mosaic Law, so you need to make the case for why we shouldn't also interpret those verses as referring to the Mosaic Law instead of just insisting that they do.

I don't see anything about the Torah there.

Jeremiah 31:33 refers to the New Covenant and its own laws, of Matthew 22:37-40, which fulfill the Old Covenant laws "and any other commandment there may be." (Romans 13:8-10)

Jeremiah 31:33 Hebrew Text Analysis

In Jeremiah 31, it notable does not say that the New Covenant has its own laws, but rather used the Hebrew word "Torah" in regard to what God will put in our minds and write on hearts, which is also known as the Mosaic Law. In Deuteronomy 30, it prophesies a time when the Israelites will return from exile and will return to obedience to the Torah and Ezekiel and Jeremiah also prophesy about the return from exile and a return to obedience to the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-28, Jeremiah 31:33). The greatest two commandments fulfill the Torah because they are inclusive of everything in the Torah. For example, the Torah instructs us to help the poor and the command to love our neighbor is inclusive of helping the poor, so the greatest two commandments do not refer to a different set of laws than the Torah, especially because the Torah is inclusive of the greatest two commandments.

The standard of the Mosaic law is much too low for the New Covenant, which standard is love, and which requires so much more than the Mosaic law.

It is completely illogical for you to think that that a set of laws that include the greatest two commandments is a lower standard that the greatest two commandments. Love is also the same standard as the Mosaic Law, which is why love fulfills it.

And could anything be any more clear than the NT revelation that the law was given to reveal sin (Romans 3:20; 7:7) and to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24), and
now that faith in Christ has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:25)?

What is it about God's New Covenant and NT revelation in Christ that you do not understand?

Yes, the Mosaic Law was given to reveal what sin is and under the New Covenant we are still required to refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin. In Matthew 7:23, Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law leads us to Christ because it teaches us how to know him, or in other words, how to have a relationship with him, but does not lead us to Christ so that we can reject what he taught and go back to living in sin. It is contradictory for you want to reject the object of that faith now that it has come instead of embracing it. Now that faith has come, we are under a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His Torah in accordance with what Christ taught by word and by example. In Galatians 3:26, for in Christ we are all sons of God through faith, and in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, which was in obedience to the Torah, and in 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Torah are not children of God, so Galatians 3 should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying God. The author of the NT were followers of Christ, so they should not be interpreted as speaking against following the Torah that Christ spent his ministry teaching by word and by example, and it is not clear to me why you don't understand that.

I'm tired of the "abolished" argument...

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