I'm starting to change my mind about the End Times (help!)

[parousia70]

For a long time I have been watching and waiting for a third temple to be built. I keep seeing news about a red heifer being found and all we need is the temple. So, does the Dome of the Rock need to fall? Will the third temple be built elsewhere? Is there any biblical evidence of a third temple or did the events already happen leading up to 70 AD?

The fact that the apostles all taught about and looked for Christ's coming in their own lifetimes is PROOF that they knew nothing of 1948 or a supposed "coming third temple" and a "temporal Church age" before God "dealt with Israel." They were speaking of the coming foretold at Matthew 21:40-45/Luke 21:20-23/Matthew 23:33-38. That "coming" was indeed imminent, indeed took place in their lifetimes, and Israel was definitively "dealt with", as they all had prophesied.

 

[Douggg]

Isn't it through the Holy Spirit, we become the temple, so temple worship and sacrifice are no longer needed?

The same person who said that. 1Corinthians3:16 - Paul - also said that the son of perdition would go into the temple, sit, claim to be God. Triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

For a long time I have been watching and waiting for a third temple to be built. I keep seeing news about a red heifer being found and all we need is the temple. So, does the Dome of the Rock need to fall? Will the third temple be built elsewhere? Is there any biblical evidence of a third temple or did the events already happen leading up to 70 AD?

Because of the time constraints involved, the great tribulation temple will likely be a downsized interim temple that could be quickly constructed to get the animal sacrifice going as quickly as possible.

The Dome of the Rock will be removed. Easily and quickly done with modern construction equipment, post Gog/Magog, likely.

 

[Saucy]

The same person who said that. 1Corinthians3:16 - Paul - also said that the son of perdition would go into the temple, sit, claim to be God. Triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord.


Because of the time constraints involved, the great tribulation temple will likely be a downsized interim temple that could be quickly constructed to get the animal sacrifice going as quickly as possible.

The Dome of the Rock will be removed. Easily and quickly done with modern construction equipment, post Gog/Magog, likely.

Do you think we will see Gog/Magog in our lifetime and will it be before the rapture?

 

[Douggg]

Do you think we will see Gog/Magog in our lifetime and will it be before the rapture?

Yes, regarding our generation. And maybe the rapture after Gog/Magog.

Gog/Magog Ezekiel 39:1-16 - then the 7 years - then Armageddon Ezekiel 39:17-20, then Jesus having return to earth Ezekiel 21-29 Himself speaking in the text.

In the middle part of the 7 years the ToD act. The rapture window between now, today and the the ToD act day. The ToD act day is the limit, because that act triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The rapture window shaded in blue.

 

[DavidPT]

Yes, regarding our generation. And maybe the rapture after Gog/Magog.

Gog/Magog Ezekiel 39:1-16 - then the 7 years - then Armageddon Ezekiel 39:17-20, then Jesus having return to earth Ezekiel 21-29 Himself speaking in the text.

In the middle part of the 7 years the ToD act. The rapture window between now, today and the the ToD act day. The ToD act day is the limit, because that act triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The rapture window shaded in blue.


View attachment 321053

As to the day of the Lord, since that day obviously involves His wrath, both Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 record that His wrath begins as of the 6th seal. Matthew 24:29 records that the 6th seal is after great tribulation(Matthew 24:21). In my view 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is meaning during the time of Matthew 24:15-26, not during the time involving Matthew 24:29.

To make the day of the Lord to be part of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is to make nonsense out of the 6th seal, not to mention, the 5th seal as well. Clearly God's wrath is not happening during the 5th seal. The 5th seal events have to fit somewhere within Matthew 24. If not within verses 15-26, where do you propose they fit?

You would have us believe, just like some of these Preterists around here, great tribulation(Matthew 24:21), this involves God's wrath, regardless that both Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:9-17 all prove that God's wrath doesn't even begin until the 6th seal, and that Matthew 24:29 indicates the 6th seal is immediately after great tribulation, not during it instead. But let's just ignore all of the above and still insist the day of the Lord involves the great tribulation.

Even the following, if we compare with Matthew 24, shows that this is meaning after great tribulation.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


Would anyone argue that none of that involves God's wrath, that none of that involves the day of the Lord?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


As can be seen in this verse, these events recorded in Luke 21:25-26 are meaning after great tribulation, not during it. Which then obviously means, anything involving men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken---does not involve anything taking place during great tribulation, but is involving things taking place following great tribulation. As to Luke 21:26, I take that to be meaning it is the lost, and not the saved as well, who's hearts will be failing them for fear.

 

[wonderkins]

Isn't it through the Holy Spirit, we become the temple, so temple worship and sacrifice are no longer needed? When Christ died, the veil was torn from top to bottom. The spirit poured into believers at Pentecost.

For a long time I have been watching and waiting for a third temple to be built. I keep seeing news about a red heifer being found and all we need is the temple. So, does the Dome of the Rock need to fall? Will the third temple be built elsewhere? Is there any biblical evidence of a third temple or did the events already happen leading up to 70 AD?

Thank you to everyone who has answered in here so far!

You won't find anything in the new testament about a 3rd temple being built. To say there will be one is to add to the Bible. What you should take from revelation 11 is that maybe the temple was still standing when John wrote it, which means in the 60s first century.

Even if one were to be built and sacrifices started again, we should be so offended because of the insult it would be to God. Jesus was the final sacrifice.

 

[parousia70]

Even if one were to be built and sacrifices started again, we should be so offended because of the insult it would be to God. Jesus was the final sacrifice.

It won't be built. God will make sure of it. Just Like he has for each previous attempt.

 

[Douggg]

As to the day of the Lord, since that day obviously involves His wrath, both Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 record that His wrath begins as of the 6th seal.

David, in the 6th seal, it says the wrath of the Lamb - Jesus. Who is about to avenge the deaths of the martyrs in the fifth seal.

The Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5 comes when the world is saying peace and safety (thinking that they are living in the messianic age of the Antichrist).

In 2Thessalaonians2:1-4, Paul addresses our gathering unto Jesus (which is the rapture event in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 before the Day of the Lord begins) and the two things that must take place before the Day of the Lord begins.

1. The great falling away.
2. The transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist to go into the temple, sit, claim to achieve God- hood. Which act triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord, God's wrath - anger.

Please read Ezekiel 28:1-10, it is about the Antichrist sitting in the temple of god, claiming to be a god, and having magnified himself in his heart as being God.

Read those verses - and consider the tone and tell me, do you think God was angry about it ? And that he will take action to have the revealed man of sin killed for it ?

 

[Douggg]

To make the day of the Lord to be part of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is to make nonsense out of the 6th seal, not to mention, the 5th seal as well. Clearly God's wrath is not happening during the 5th seal. The 5th seal events have to fit somewhere within Matthew 24. If not within verses 15-26, where do you propose they fit?

God's wrath takes place at different points during the great tribulation. But the vials of God's wrath begins when Satan is worshiped when he incarnates the statue image of the beast making it appear to come alive and speaks.

The 5th seal events have to fit somewhere within Matthew 24. If not within verses 15-26, where do you propose they fit?

The 5th seal would be right before Matthew 24:29-30a, which is the 6th seal event, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. Matthew 24:28 could be referring to the great tribulation martyrs.

Would anyone argue that none of that involves God's wrath, that none of that involves the day of the Lord?

The Day of the Lord lasts for eternity. It is the beginning years of it that are a time of unmatched trouble.

What we are going back and forth on discussing, is about the beginning years of trouble associated with the Day of the Lord - not the eternal wonderfulness of it.

The first part of the Day of the Lord begins with the ToD act by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4 - which triggers God's anger.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You won't find anything in the new testament about a 3rd temple being built. To say there will be one is to add to the Bible. What you should take from revelation 11 is that maybe the temple was still standing when John wrote it, which means in the 60s first century.

Even if one were to be built and sacrifices started again, we should be so offended because of the insult it would be to God. Jesus was the final sacrifice.

Right. It's not possible for some temple built by unbelieving Jews in the future to be something that Paul or John would have called "the temple of God". We (believers/the church) are the temple of God (1 Cor 6:16, Eph 2:19-22).

 

[Saucy]

You won't find anything in the new testament about a 3rd temple being built. To say there will be one is to add to the Bible. What you should take from revelation 11 is that maybe the temple was still standing when John wrote it, which means in the 60s first century.

Even if one were to be built and sacrifices started again, we should be so offended because of the insult it would be to God. Jesus was the final sacrifice.

I understand. Many are interpreting the idea of the third temple because there must be the antichrist standing in the temple and calling himself God. Since the temple was destroyed, it must be rebuilt, and sacrifices would resume. I know it would insult God, but Jews, at this time, do not believe in Jesus as their Messiah. This is partly why I believe Revelations hasn't happened yet because Jews accepting Jesus as Messiah is expected to happen in the future.

Israel becoming a nation again (in a single day) is what happened in the 40s. Jews being gathered from all over the world back into their homeland was (and is still currently) being fulfilled. And it is the generation that witnesses Israel becoming a nation again that will not pass away before the coming of the Lord. This generation is in their 80s.

Daniel 12:4 says: “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end.” Many prophecies were not interpreted until the last few decades.

 

[wonderkins]

I understand. Many are interpreting the idea of the third temple because there must be the antichrist standing in the temple and calling himself God. Since the temple was destroyed, it must be rebuilt, and sacrifices would resume. I know it would insult God, but Jews, at this time, do not believe in Jesus as their Messiah. This is partly why I believe Revelations hasn't happened yet because Jews accepting Jesus as Messiah is expected to happen in the future.

Israel becoming a nation again (in a single day) is what happened in the 40s. Jews being gathered from all over the world back into their homeland was (and is still currently) being fulfilled. And it is the generation that witnesses Israel becoming a nation again that will not pass away before the coming of the Lord. This generation is in their 80s.

Daniel 12:4 says: “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end.” Many prophecies were not interpreted until the last few decades.

Well in your inquiries on preterism, you'll find that Daniel isn't saying there will be a third temple. Daniel was written before the second temple was rebuilt though. And that temple was destroyed when Titus entered the and defiled it. He was the prince (son of Vespasian) who's people destroyed the city and he put an end to sacrifice.

When you see the 1290 days and 1335 days in Daniel 12, it's talking about the Roman/Jewish war. The 1290 days before the destruction. And then from the day ofthe temples destruction to the day Masada fell was 1335 days. That was about 40 years (biblical generation) after Jesus said it would.

And then think about Jesus's words in Matthew:

“But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
— Matthew 10:23

“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
— Matthew 16:28

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

He was talking to those people right in front of him. Those things happened. Either what Jesus said happened, or those people are alive on the earth somewhere for about 2000 years. Or Jesus was wrong.

 

[parousia70]

I understand. Many are interpreting the idea of the third temple because there must be the antichrist standing in the temple and calling himself God.

There is no scripture that says antichrist does this.
Antichrist is mentioned in only 4 scriptures and in none of those solitary 4 passages is antichrist said to stand in a temple and proclaim to be God.

I think you're thinking of someone else.

Since the temple was destroyed, it must be rebuilt, and sacrifices would resume. I know it would insult God, but Jews, at this time, do not believe in Jesus as their Messiah. This is partly why I believe Revelations hasn't happened yet because Jews accepting Jesus as Messiah is expected to happen in the future.

What scripture would you be basing this expectation on?
Jews by the THOUSANDS accepted Jesus as their Messiah in the 1st century. 3000 did so in ONE DAY!

It always amazes me how people today can pretend like this never happened. Like it's something we're still waiting for.

Israel becoming a nation again (in a single day) is what happened in the 40s. Jews being gathered from all over the world back into their homeland was (and is still currently) being fulfilled.

Today's Jews are a multi ethnic melting pot of gentile converts, and their descendants, to the post Christian Religion of the Talmud. They have no relationship, religiously, genetically or politically to the pre desolation Hebrews. How could a group of gentile converts, and their descendants, to a religion that would be completely foreign to Moses and the Apostles, a religion that men invented hundreds of years AFTER Christianity was born, be considered "Biblical Jews Back in their homeland" exactly?

This one always fascinates me.

And it is the generation that witnesses Israel becoming a nation again that will not pass away before the coming of the Lord. This generation is in their 80s.

And a Biblical generation is 40 years, so it's already way overdue.... Regardless, you do make a valid point. Time is QUICKLY running out for folks who hold that view...

Daniel 12:4 says: “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end.”

And Revelation 22:10 says: And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

Many prophecies were not interpreted until the last few decades.

Make no mistake, people have been incorrectly interpreting those prophesies for millennia.

 

[parousia70]

Either what Jesus said happened, or those people are alive on the earth somewhere for about 2000 years. Or Jesus was wrong.

I'm going with #1

 

[Original Happy Camper]

OHC, why would Jesus desire to make His Father's house desolate ?

Jesus declared that it was not the Fathers house

Matthew 23:37-38 King James Version

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I apologize if this is not the right place for this.

I wanted some help with End Times theology. For most of my Christian walk, I've believed in the Left Behind type of theology. The tribulation is ahead of us and will be kicked off by the rapture of the church.

But all of a sudden I've been introduced to preterist theology and I don't know what to believe anymore. Could Daniel and even Revelations have warned about Nero being the fulfillment of being the little horn rising up as the Beast of the Sea? I heard he matches up with 666, he ended temple sacrifice after breaking a treaty with Jerusalem, and so much more.

I always heard that the best would be killed and brought back from the dead, which I just read the beast was Rome and after Nero killed himself, the empire was surely dead, but "came back to life" better than ever after Vespasian came to rule.

This is difficult for me because I have been waiting for the return of the Messiah. Is He not supposed to return after the tribulation? What have we been doing for the last 2,000 years if the tribulation happened so long ago? Was Nero the antichrist?

I don't know what to believe anymore! Please help me out if you have some answers for me (or even share good books and resources that can help me.) Thanks!

Hello Saucy,

Learn the 4 main positions first....learn them well enough that you could accurately explain them.
In any case, as long as a person believes Jesus will return it is all good.
Take your time, pick out the best of each system but keep winning the lost and doing Kingdom service.

 

[keras]

Today's Jews are a multi ethnic melting pot of gentile converts, and their descendants, to the post Christian Religion of the Talmud. They have no relationship, religiously, genetically or politically to the pre desolation Hebrews. How could a group of gentile converts, and their descendants, to a religion that would be completely foreign to Moses and the Apostles, that men invented hundreds of years AFTER Christianity was born, be considered "Biblical Jews Back in the land" exactly?

Wow! This hits the nail right on the head.
The Zionist's who established the Jewish State of Israel, have no relationship, ethnically, [maybe a few might, but they cannot prove it] or Spiritually to ancient Israel.
They and their evil neighbors face God's punishment quite soon. Jeremiah 12:14

And a Biblical generation is 40 years, so it's already way overdue.... .

In Matthew 24:34, Jesus was not referring family generations, but to all the people alive who see the fig tree come into bud and leaf. Verse 32-33 An obvious reference to the new nation of Israel.

Those who see that happen, in May 1948 and are born subsequently, are the generation who will see it all. That is: ALL the end time Bible prophesies, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

Make no mistake, people have been incorrectly interpreting those prophesies for millennia.

And today, as evidenced by the proliferation of theories and guesses about God's Plans for our future.
Why? Jesus tells us in Matthew 11:25-26.

 

[Saucy]

There is no scripture that says antichrist does this.
Antichrist is mentioned in only 4 scriptures and in none of those solitary 4 passages is antichrist said to stand in a temple and proclaim to be God.

I think you're thinking of someone else.


What scripture would you be basing this expectation on?
Jews by the THOUSANDS accepted Jesus as their Messiah in the 1st century. 3000 did so in ONE DAY!

It always amazes me how people today can pretend like this never happened. Like it's something we're still waiting for.



Today's Jews are a multi ethnic melting pot of gentile converts, and their descendants, to the post Christian Religion of the Talmud. They have no relationship, religiously, genetically or politically to the pre desolation Hebrews. How could a group of gentile converts, and their descendants, to a religion that would be completely foreign to Moses and the Apostles, a religion that men invented hundreds of years AFTER Christianity was born, be considered "Biblical Jews Back in their homeland" exactly?

This one always fascinates me.


And a Biblical generation is 40 years, so it's already way overdue.... Regardless, you do make a valid point. Time is QUICKLY running out for folks who hold that view...


And Revelation 22:10 says: And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.



Make no mistake, people have been incorrectly interpreting those prophesies for millennia.

Then who is the lawless one mentioned in 2nd Thessalonians 2:4 "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God." That is the same anti-christ figure. Just because he is not always called the antichrist does not mean it is not the same person. It goes on to say he will be suppressed (by the Holy Spirit) until the Spirit is taken away. That taking away, in my opinion, is the church's rapture.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. The Spirit cannot leave the earth and leave us who are sealed without Him, so this tells me the church will go with Him. The Spirit clearly has not left yet, but when the church is raptured, the antichrist will not be suppressed any longer and will have free reign to wreak havoc on the earth.

As for the melting pot thought, are you not referring to the same Jews who continually lament at the wailing wall? I do not believe that is a temple wall, but a Roman fort since the temple was completely destroyed and "no stone was left unturned." I hear from many Jewish sites a desire to rebuild the temple and bring back sacrifices.

I understand your point, though. After 400 years in Egypt, the Jews knew very little of what life was like in their homeland and wanted to return back to Egypt. But they did return. After the captivity, they were gone a long time and not allowed to worship, but they did return and rebuilt the temple. They still have the scriptures and can return back to their old way of life.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

and proclaim to be God.

The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII says this:

But to believe that our Lord God the Pope the establisher of said decretal, and of this, could not decree, as he did decree, should be accounted heretical

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Do you believe that another temple will be built for the son of perdition in 2Thesslaonians2:4 to sit in, claiming to be God ?

absolutly not