"I'm 'Puzzled' By Women Who Say They Aren't Feminists" Hilary Clinton to Lena Duham

[The Antigrrrl]

Terrible, yes then I understand the comment.
Those old fashioned men who provide for their family are scarse here. My dad is one. My mother worked 3 days a week but only when I was 5 and my siblings 15 and 13.
Those bossy men aren't that bad. Actually they're great.

Yah, I am personally not seeing matriarchy as being a big improvement. It's like all the bad of patriarchy plus PMS.

 

[Messy]

Yah, I am personally not seeing matriarchy as being a big improvement. It's like all the bad of patriarchy plus PMS.

 

[Messy]

My dad never did anything around the house. Lol since he's retired I think he felt bad about it. He can't cook. My mom cooks, but he doesn't allow her to clean up afterwards. That is his task.

 

[Saricharity]

Surely you don't really mean that. WHATEVER they may be??

Within the context of this thread...good grief. Whether a woman or a man chooses to be a stay at home parent or both work outside the home or whatever, I don't really care. Whatever works for their family. My beef is when women are forced to work when there is no reason.

But it's not my business. Just before going into marriage and bringing innocent children into the family, make sure both husband and wife have decided and agree. I know women who are very unhappy working outside the home and would much rather be homemakers but work because it 'keeps the peace' or their marriage is 'happier'. That's a crock in my opinion. Men who say if I have to work so do you and those are the men who sit on their duff while mom is struggling to balance kids and work. Not all women have careers...some just have a job and it may even be one they hate. I also know plenty of women who are happy and fulfilled homemakers and their homes are peaceful havens. Sometimes families make financial sacrifices so the mom can stay home and from what I've heard and seen, those homes are peaceful sanctuaries.
So yes, feminism should be about supporting choices...whatever they may be.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Within the context of this thread...good grief. Whether a woman or a man chooses to be a stay at home parent or both work outside the home or whatever, I don't really care. Whatever works for their family. My beef is when women are forced to work when there is no reason.

But it's not my business. Just before going into marriage and bringing innocent children into the family, make sure both husband and wife have decided and agree. I know women who are very unhappy working outside the home and would much rather be homemakers but work because it 'keeps the peace' or their marriage is 'happier'. That's a crock in my opinion. Men who say if I have to work so do you and those are the men who sit on their duff while mom is struggling to balance kids and work. Not all women have careers...some just have a job and it may even be one they hate. I also know plenty of women who are happy and fulfilled homemakers and their homes are peaceful havens. Sometimes families make financial sacrifices so the mom can stay home and from what I've heard and seen, those homes are peaceful sanctuaries.
So yes, feminism should be about supporting choices...whatever they may be.

Out of curiosity, what would your thoughts be if a wife had a career that paid just enough to cover the family's expenses, and her husband decided he did not want to work because he couldn't find a job he didn't hate? Not all men have fulfilling careers, either; many hit their alarm clocks every morning with dread and go to jobs they detest because they are obligated to produce an income and support themselves and their families. Do you think a husband should be entitled to stay at home against his wife's objections if she could afford to keep them afloat? What if he had the desire and the ability to fulfill the same duties his wife would if she stayed at home? This isn't a theoretical question. One of my friends was in this exact scenario in her family. Her father lost his job, felt dejected because he couldn't land another one, and decided to stop trying because her mom is an executive with a high income. He didn't work for several years, causing destruction to himself and his family. Is it a crock that her mom felt resentful and stressed that he refused to do his part to help with the functioning of their family? He was still completing household and parenting duties (though they only have one child who was 13 when he stopped working). If the genders were reversed, why would it be a crock?

Why is it a crock that a husband would want his presumably capable wife to work and contribute to the household income if there weren't pressing needs compelling her to stay home? If they both wanted her to stay home and had that luxury, that's one thing, but it's another entirely if either protest with just cause. I can think of a multitude of valid reasons for him to want her to work. Your lack of awareness of the reason for why a husband wishes for his wife to work doesn't mean he doesn't have one......or several. If they created or adopted their children together they are equally responsible for them, so why is it unreasonable that he'd want her to fairly help with their financial provisions? Even if he could pay for all their current needs on his solitary salary, it's completely logical and responsible that he'd desire an additional income to go towards their college tuition, extras that could benefit the family, and to put into their savings accounts for unexpected expenses. I don't think it's fair for all the financial burden for a family to be placed on the father's shoulders unless he has agreed to take that on, and his circumstances allow him to be able to without placing them in jeopardy.

Another concern many men might have is the security of their jobs. During the Recession in particular many professionals and even more blue collar workers lost their jobs and went for long time periods, well beyond their unemployment benefits, without being able to land another one. In a single-income household this significantly exacerbates the stress levels, especially if the wife hasn't worked for a long time and doesn't have skills that make her as employable. Husbands can also fear that an illness, accident, or even death could render them unable to provide for their families as thoroughly as desired, and feel more secure knowing their wives have a salary that will keep their children secure. Another reason a husband might want his wife to work is that he's made himself knowledgeable about the research regarding advantages it provides to children both while they are young and long-term. I posted a couple of links about this in a previous post, including to one about a study involving 50,000 adults in 25 countries and how having mothers who worked contributed to them obtaining higher levels of education and better careers. Harvard recently released a study about how kids benefit from working mothers. This isn't to state that children don't also thrive with mothers who stay at home with them because they do, but there are various perspectives to consider in regards to the specific circumstances of an individual family.

I also don't understand why it would be assumed that a working father would sit on his duff while his wife, a woman I would hope he loves and respects, is struggling to balance kids and work. Most men I know get off their duffs and help their wives. Though women receive more criticism for pursuing careers and families, many modern men struggle with the balance, too. My father and stepdad work hard to deftly manage their professional lives and family commitments. They must carefully organize their time so they are putting us first but still fulfilling all of their obligations with work. They are also helping with homework, sanitizing scraped elbows and tending to wounded feelings from the day, making breakfasts and cleaning up the kitchen, assembling bikes and dollhouses, coaching Little League and driving carpools to dance and equestrian competitions and swim meets. During pregnancy and for the first year or so of a child's life I think it's harder on the mother, but with older children I think it's about equal if both working parents are equally committed to the upbringing of their children. No man worth his salt sits on his duff while his exhausted wife is rushing around their house trying to take care of all the responsibilities that come with keeping it up and caring for their children.

As for a couple agreeing upon what roles they will have before they marry, that's wise to an extent, but they also both need to be amenable to adaptation. That's true for couples of any age, but especially for ones who marry very young. An adult woman shouldn't feel compelled to never seek a job because when she was 16 she told her fiancee she'd be his help meet and stay at home with their future kids, and a grown man shouldn't feel mandated to support his wife not working outside the house indefinitely because he agreed to that when he was a kid and put a ring on her finger. It's also why I think it's prudent for both genders to pursue higher education or vocational training and obtain useful credentials and skills if they have the opportunity. There are mothers with children to provide for who have a husband who became disabled, ill, unemployed, or died, and their struggles are made all the harder because all they have is a 25 year old high school diploma and no marketable skills. There are also women who feel trapped in marriages that were once sweet and loving but soured into abusiveness because they lack the finances to move out and the practical skills to earn a job that would make enough to support themselves and their kids.

I can definitely understand how a wife working outside the home as her husband desires her to do keeps the peace in her relationship and makes her marriage happier. A harmonious marriage will have two people willing to listen to and respect the needs and desires of one another, willing to consider the family's needs comprehensively and work together towards providing them, and willing to make self-sacrifices that lead to a stronger unity. As I wrote before, what's so crucial is context, which includes not just the family's finances, the number of children they have, and other practicalities, but the feelings of both within the marriage.

 

[Hetta]

Sure play all day when you have 6 kids. I was talking about the tiny minority in Holland of traditional reformed christians who believe God wants it like that and whose husbands want that too but hey who cares about those stupid old fashioned people? Go work Disney princesses!

God DID NOT SAY that women stay home. Read Proverbs 31 and tell me whether that woman "played" all day. THAT is the woman after God's heart, whose family rose up and call her blessed.

 

[brinny]

"I'm 'Puzzled' By Women Who Say They Aren't Feminists" Hilary Clinton to Lena Duham

Does Hillary even realize just HOW she sounds, and how poor her judgment appears by saying this, and added to that, WHOM she's saying this to?

Is she senile?

 

[Hetta]

wow, heck froze over, I totally agree with you.

That's equality. That's all I've ever been "for" - grown adults/married people taking equal responsibility for every aspect of their lives as a team.

 

[Hetta]

Context, HGH. Context is vitally important for understanding Hetta's post, and for the applicability of your sentence above.

Editing to Add-

I hadn't read your entire statement before because it was tucked into the post you were quoting, and I'm dashing on here from my phone en route to (and now from) the competition. I still don't have time to address much but had wanted to reply to this particular part.

You wrote: "Why not raise your own kids? Instead of depending on others who might have different values and ideas that you don't" in response to Hetta stating: "These kids grow up just fine. They have parents who love them and those parents find good daycare, or family members who can help with their kids."

You asked if she knew your mom. She doesn't, but I do and I've never questioned her devotion to her children. We have mutual affection for one another. She has nine children she loves and who love her. The number of children she has, the necessity of her and you and your siblings contributing to daily operation of your farm, your rural location, and the affordability of where you live are all critical factors that influence the rationale of her choice to not work outside the home. I understand that you feel defensive when you think someone has belittled your mom's choices. I feel the same way, which is why I object to what you wrote.

You know that my mom and stepmom have fulfilling, meaningful careers, and that their work has significantly, tangibly benefited the lives of so many others in addition to their own and our family's. They are the most selfless, proactive, generous people I know. And my mom absolutely has raised me and my siblings. She's been every bit as devoted, as loving, as caring, as present as your mom. In fact, I was involved in quite literally ten times the number of activities as you were in high school, and my mom showed up with enthusiasm for everything, as well as for every game and every recital and every special events for my siblings. She's dived into supporting my college life with gusto, as she did with my brother when he went here. She's been instrumental in organizing a major fundraiser here next weekend. My stepmom has been equally committed to my life and my siblings, in addition to caring for other children as a pediatrician in her day job Monday through Friday and volunteering two Saturdays a month at the free family clinic.

I feel an abundance of gratitude to my parents for sending me to exceptional schools where thoughtful, engaging, highly educated and committed teachers with different ideas and beliefs than their own taught me, challenged me, and enriched me exponentially. I sent out thank you emails to teachers - both at school and with extracurricular pursuits such as painting and dance - dating back to the second grade when I got into Stanford because I credit them for helping me to be able to realize my dream. I feel like that exposure to a diversity of perspectives from both my teachers and my classmates is one of the most profound and useful gifts my parents have given to my life. Instead of feeling "dumped" I feel like I was elevated. It has expanded my academic, creative, and social horizons; made me a more committed and aware citizen; and stimulated me to develop my own thoughts and beliefs independently of my parents. It's why you don't hear me parrot my parents when I'm formulating my own reasons for my beliefs. I wouldn't want to be raised in a hermetic environment sealed off from authentic, active teachings about other viewpoints and concepts, and inhibited from forming long-term relationships with teachers and classmates from different religious and philosophical views.

You wrote about women investing themselves in their children's childhood. My mom has invested in our childhoods - with her talent, her love, her time, her support, and her finances. Same for my stepmom. You know my dad could pay for our tuition as if it was pocket change, but she has always insisted on them sharing the expenses so they were equally invested - literally and figuratively. Her success and commitment to us as her priority has helped to enable me and my siblings to attend the schools we have (that she painstakingly researched and made sure were the right fit for each of us), as well as to pursue our passions in the art, music, sports, and dance. She was involved in our schools, serving on the board at Mirman for years and even being active in the Parents Association at Stanford. Her dedication to our education was just as strong as your mom's. She's also been invested in improving the childhoods of some of the most vulnerable kids through her work.

That's an amazing post. I hope that you share those kind of thoughts and feelings about your upbringing with your parents. Let me tell you, when a child turns around and says something like this, it is an overwhelming confirmation of all of your hard work. You are a credit to your parents

 

[Blue Wren]

Context, HGH. Context is vitally important for understanding Hetta's post, and for the applicability of your sentence above.

Editing to Add-

I hadn't read your entire statement before because it was tucked into the post you were quoting, and I'm dashing on here from my phone en route to (and now from) the competition. I still don't have time to address much but had wanted to reply to this particular part.

You wrote: "Why not raise your own kids? Instead of depending on others who might have different values and ideas that you don't" in response to Hetta stating: "These kids grow up just fine. They have parents who love them and those parents find good daycare, or family members who can help with their kids."

You asked if she knew your mom. She doesn't, but I do and I've never questioned her devotion to her children. We have mutual affection for one another. She has nine children she loves and who love her. The number of children she has, the necessity of her and you and your siblings contributing to daily operation of your farm, your rural location, and the affordability of where you live are all critical factors that influence the rationale of her choice to not work outside the home. I understand that you feel defensive when you think someone has belittled your mom's choices. I feel the same way, which is why I object to what you wrote.

You know that my mom and stepmom have fulfilling, meaningful careers, and that their work has significantly, tangibly benefited the lives of so many others in addition to their own and our family's. They are the most selfless, proactive, generous people I know. And my mom absolutely has raised me and my siblings. She's been every bit as devoted, as loving, as caring, as present as your mom. In fact, I was involved in quite literally ten times the number of activities as you were in high school, and my mom showed up with enthusiasm for everything, as well as for every game and every recital and every special events for my siblings. She's dived into supporting my college life with gusto, as she did with my brother when he went here. She's been instrumental in organizing a major fundraiser here next weekend. My stepmom has been equally committed to my life and my siblings, in addition to caring for other children as a pediatrician in her day job Monday through Friday and volunteering two Saturdays a month at the free family clinic.

I feel an abundance of gratitude to my parents for sending me to exceptional schools where thoughtful, engaging, highly educated and committed teachers with different ideas and beliefs than their own taught me, challenged me, and enriched me exponentially. I sent out thank you emails to teachers - both at school and with extracurricular pursuits such as painting and dance - dating back to the second grade when I got into Stanford because I credit them for helping me to be able to realize my dream. I feel like that exposure to a diversity of perspectives from both my teachers and my classmates is one of the most profound and useful gifts my parents have given to my life. Instead of feeling "dumped" I feel like I was elevated. It has expanded my academic, creative, and social horizons; made me a more committed and aware citizen; and stimulated me to develop my own thoughts and beliefs independently of my parents. It's why you don't hear me parrot my parents when I'm formulating my own reasons for my beliefs. I wouldn't want to be raised in a hermetic environment sealed off from authentic, active teachings about other viewpoints and concepts, and inhibited from forming long-term relationships with teachers and classmates from different religious and philosophical views.

You wrote about women investing themselves in their children's childhood. My mom has invested in our childhoods - with her talent, her love, her time, her support, and her finances. Same for my stepmom. You know my dad could pay for our tuition as if it was pocket change, but she has always insisted on them sharing the expenses so they were equally invested - literally and figuratively. Her success and commitment to us as her priority has helped to enable me and my siblings to attend the schools we have (that she painstakingly researched and made sure were the right fit for each of us), as well as to pursue our passions in the art, music, sports, and dance. She was involved in our schools, serving on the board at Mirman for years and even being active in the Parents Association at Stanford. Her dedication to our education was just as strong as your mom's. She's also been invested in improving the childhoods of some of the most vulnerable kids through her work.

I agree, that this post, it is amazing. I think, also, that your success, it is a credit, to your parents.

What is HGH?

 

[keith99]

I agree, that this post, it is amazing. I think, also, that your success, it is a credit, to your parents.

What is HGH?

Got me. Being an insane jock Human Growth Hormone comes to mind, but that does not seem to fit in this context.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I agree, that this post, it is amazing. I think, also, that your success, it is a credit, to your parents.

What is HGH?

@Jennae knows what it means.

Thank you and Hetta for your kind comments. They made me smile.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Dutch men don't get a heart attack from working. I never dated one who had a job. The ones that have don't work more than 40 hours. Most work 32 and have a dads day. That's because we don't need luxury like big expensive houses and cars. A bike and a 2 room rent apartment are really cheap here. We value free time and time with the kids over money, so we don't get enslaved by that nonsense.
Women who care for their husband who works 40 hours, clean up and take care of a bunch of kids full time work hard enough.
Why force them to work? In daycare maybe? Take care of someone elses baby? And then give 1/3 of their income to unemployed totally healthy men?
Gosh I hate feminism.

By the time people pay their rent, car payment and insurance there is not much left over for anything.

Rev "Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds of wheat for a day's wages, and six pounds of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed for staff review and there will be a clean up

Edit: This thread is staying closed. it generated many reports and there were multiple violations in the thread including these:
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And there was some very untrue stuff said​