"I'm 'Puzzled' By Women Who Say They Aren't Feminists" Hilary Clinton to Lena Duham

[Messy]

How about needlepoint? I'm not going to be the one to tell Rosey he lacks in the manhood department even though he is getting old.

 

[Hetta]

No that was sarcasm since apparently you don't care about such men. They may leave and cannot see their kids anymore. When the laws were bad for women we needed feminism. Now that it's bad for men it doesn't matter. They can choose to stay single.

I don't care much about abusers, male or female. So sue me.

 

[Hetta]

How about needlepoint? I'm not going to be the one to tell Rosey he lacks in the manhood department even though he is getting old.

You can do the needlepoint. I am clumsy with such things. I would love to knit, sew etc., but never had managed more than sewing back on a button.

 

[Hetta]

This is the same thing as saying, "If you don't belong to the KKK you hate white people".

You don't hate white people do you Hetta?

You got this the wrong way around. If a black person endorses a KKK website, then I would suspect self-hate. If a woman endorses an anti-woman website, the same thing. That's what I meant.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

For a few years before, during and after college I worked both YMCA camps and at a commercial summer camp. Especially at the commercial camp it was noticeable that some kids were dumped there and others were sent there to enjoy what the camp could provide. The kids knew. Sort of sad for the dumped ones as it provided a barrier to them having fun. (but still a barrier that the better leaders could get them over).

Looking back I'd bet that most kids would be OK if their parents missed most of their activities, as long as they tried and sometimes succeeded. If mom or dad made it to just the last quarter or the game or the last half hour of the dance recital having come straight from work what would matter most to the kid was that they made it, not that they missed part of it. Kids are fine if dad gets home so late that all that is left is to read them a bedtime story. Kids tend to forgive falling short so easily that it hardly seems forgiveness as long as they see the desire. In this case the desire to spend time with them.

Not to highlight your age but I feel that it's relevant since you were in college approximately 40 years ago when less mothers had full-time jobs. It's probable that some of the kids who felt "dumped" at the camp actually had stay-at-home mothers who could have provided care for them that summer, and had valid reasons for sending them to camp. In addition to the social opportunities and ability to learn new skills, camp provides daily structure that can be very healthy. It's possible that one of the reasons their mothers wanted them to attend the camp was actually because she stayed at home and was in need of some time for herself and peace and tranquility in the home. My paternal grandmother didn't work outside the home for many years when my dad and his siblings were growing up. She did most certainly still work; she just didn't receive a paycheck. Every summer the four rambunctious boys were sent off to camp for two weeks. They genuinely wanted to go, but she also needed to, and I quote "be able to sit down for five minutes and have a cup of coffee." This was also when she and my grandfather had much-needed alone time together.

The kids who felt dumped at the YMCA camp might have also had parents who wanted them to enjoy what the camp could provide, but they still had attitudes about being there. Their attitudes might have actually been the barrier preventing them from having the fun being offered to them. One of my friends was forced to attend camp because his parents saw the benefit of it, and he resisted it and pleaded to not have to go and then to come home. His emotions were captured in dramatic letters he wrote. His mom kept the the letters and gave them to him when he started college, and his girlfriend later posted them on Instagram because they are kinda humorous and endearing. I don't think his mom worked when he was growing up.

 

[Gadarene]

Yes; the course is open to all viewpoints, and everyone is not only permitted, but encouraged to articulate our perspectives. Class discourse at my college operates significantly differently than discussions here, though. You'd be expected to cogently present a reasoned case and to be receptive of criticism of it.

I only haven't here because I've been receiving very little here recently other than denial that non/antifeminists can be for equality. The earlier discussion before lupusfati and Loudmouth decided to inject their strain of feminist argument into the thread was better, while still lacking a tad.

And you'd seriously have to step up your act from here. I went out with most of the class afterwards for coffee on Wednesday, and actually showed them this thread and discussed it a bit. Obviously we didn't read through all 29 pages, but people pulled the thread up on their iPads and went through it reading some posts aloud. The most vehement criticism of your posts specifically were made by someone who stated he is not a feminist.

That's not massively specific, so, w/e.

If he can bring better than "feminism just means equality" and ignoring every counterargument I bring to it, that'd be swell.

You already seem to be able to accept that non/antifeminist doesn't necessarily mean someone who is against equal rights, and if your friends are in the same boat that puts you leagues ahead of people like Loudmouth.

To put it in very simple terms, I don't have to take any kind of insinuation that I'm against equality just because I don't affiliate with feminism. We'll get to the detailed stuff after that, but first there will an acceptance of my stance without insinuating stuff like that against me, which is non-negotiable. Even I, while quite critical of feminism overall, can readily admit that there are many individual feminists who do seem to be genuinely seeking equality, and that even many of those whose actions seem to be opposing equality still would have their hearts in the right place.

And I'm really not going to take lessons on definitions from a member of a movement that coins its own private definitions all the time.

There's a difference between silence and a lack of interest in expending time in matching post-for-post on an internet forum thread. There are feminists who've participated here, but not as prolifically as you. That could simply have to do with how individuals choose to manage their time.

I still find it very funny how infrequently feminists will defend their views even at a fundamental level. Sure, that's my experience, but it's a commonly reported experience as well. That's the sort of debate I want to have, frankly. The more esoteric n-th order detail of academic feminism seems to me to be about as meaningful as a theology class. Assuming that level of discussion is in any way relevant depends on your idea's foundational ideas being correct, and I'm taking issue with foundational ideas from what I can gather.

 

[keith99]

Not to highlight your age but I feel that it's relevant since you were in college approximately 40 years ago when less mothers had full-time jobs. It's probable that some of the kids who felt "dumped" at the camp actually had stay-at-home mothers who could have provided care for them that summer, and had valid reasons for sending them to camp. In addition to the social opportunities and ability to learn new skills, camp provides daily structure that can be very healthy. It's possible that one of the reasons their mothers wanted them to attend the camp was actually because she stayed at home and was in need of some time for herself and peace and tranquility in the home. My paternal grandmother didn't work outside the home for many years when my dad and his siblings were growing up. She did most certainly still work; she just didn't receive a paycheck. Every summer the four rambunctious boys were sent off to camp for two weeks. They genuinely wanted to go, but she also needed to, and I quote "be able to sit down for five minutes and have a cup of coffee." This was also when she and my grandfather had much-needed alone time together.

The kids who felt dumped at the YMCA camp might have also had parents who wanted them to enjoy what the camp could provide, but they still had attitudes about being there. Their attitudes might have actually been the barrier preventing them from having the fun being offered to them. One of my friends was forced to attend camp because his parents saw the benefit of it, and he resisted it and pleaded to not have to go and then to come home. His emotions were captured in dramatic letters he wrote. His mom kept the the letters and gave them to him when he started college, and his girlfriend later posted them on Instagram because they are kinda humorous and endearing. I don't think his mom worked when he was growing up.

It is a sure thing some of the kids who were dumped at camp had stay at home moms.

The commercial camp I worked at was day camp ran 12 weeks plus a separate one week of early camp. A kid could be signed up for 2,3 or 5 days a week (at one point even 4, just Wednesday off) and for varying numbers of weeks. It was quite noticeable that a 12 week 5 days a week kid was far more apt to be dumped there. A 2 or 3 week 2 or 3 days a week kid was apt to be the other extreme, sometimes sent despite being a financial strain.

For YMCA camp there was only one dumped kid I was sure of. He was 14 years old and was sent to mountain camp (as opposed to a caravan) that meant one fixed place with cabins. He was 2 years older than the next oldest camper and his parents had told him there would be backpacking. He actually had been looking forward to that, but it was a flat out lie. Kid ran away from camp.

Since my age is now front and center (not revealed, I did that long ago both in posts and it should still show in my profile) I'll second most firmly that women in your grandmother's generation who were homemakers really did work. For part of my childhood cake mixes did not exist and then for a while they were dreadful. TV dinners did exist, but they were weak and compared to things today were dreadful. Pancakes for breakfast were really cooked, not put in a toaster and pancake mix or Bisquick were the great new advance in cooking convenience. Homemaking was real work, especially with kids who always seem to be hungry).

I think the image of women before my generation not working is exaggerated. The full time stay at home mom that persisted after the children hit their teens seems as much myth as truth. Both my grandmothers not only worked they had their own businesses. My maternal grandmother had her business into her 70s and when age finally did catch up with her she worked out a situation where she did what she loved and dropped the business owner part. (She was a florist. When she 'retired' she still made floral arrangements with a heavy emphasis on weddings. Actually traveled to Hawaii and Japan on business related trips during that stage of her life).

Most of the women in my families social circle worked to some degree, most often once the kids were older and usually part time.

Back to camp. When I was a leader I had to learn to deal with something I had no experience with as a camper. Homesickness. The commercial camp I went to and worked at was the summer business aspect of the school I attended. Home and family was there. YMCA camp was something where my YMCA club pretty much went en mass. Home went away to camp, any kid not there had better reason to feel homesick, even though he was sleeping in his own bed. Homesick kids can feel abandoned, but they usually come around fairly quickly.

Thinking about it the vast majority of kids who went to camp had at least someone else they already knew there. The first few days could be hard on those who knew no one. Not always some did just fine. Thinking of that also reminded me of one trip, a backpacking trip where at the pre trip rally the director emphasized how much high sugar snacks were already planned. This caused some concern in one family. The were concerned about so much junk food and no mention of more healthy food. Turned out that the daughter who was making the trip was a dancer and the backpacking trip was for her a significant reduction in energy expenditure. Fortunately it was I they talked to about it and as an ex swimmer and crazy Rugby player I instantly understood and was able to put them at ease.

EDIT: Just remembered. I at least twice was the only male on an all female camping trip. The powers in charge felt there had to be a male along to watch out for the poor helpless females. Neither of the women who directed those trips needed any male help to have a safe and fun trip. One was the best camp director I ever worked with. Oh and I was chosen because both of the women directors knew I thought of them as anything but helpless, I don't know if there were more than a couple of others that they felt that way about. Just a glance at the attitudes of the time.

 

[Messy]

All those babies that have to go to daycare when they're 3 months old. Small kids that cry all the time when a parent leaves. One or two daycare workers with a bunch of babies and kids. Moms that want to stay with them and may not because of the money or a feminist dad who won't let her.
Ah that's good for them. They have to learn to grow up and not whine so much. I was lucky that dad could take care of them and I got kids before the crisis when you got paid for 4 days and only had to work 2 for a year with each kid.
What you see a lot here is because daycare is so expensive grandma's and granddads raise their grandkids while the parents work.
A friend of mine is a doctor so she earned much and had to pay extremely much for daycare. Her husband is a doctor too. She said: I'm not gonna work and give my whole salary to the daycare workers. I'll take care of my own kids.

 

[Hetta]

All those babies that have to go to daycare when they're 3 months old. Small kids that cry all the time when a parent leaves. One or two daycare workers with a bunch of babies and kids. Moms that want to stay with them and may not because of the money or a feminist dad who won't let her.

Do you really think the husbands are feminists? Feminists are pro-women's rights, so why would a "feminist" husband force his wife to do something against her will? Or perhaps it's just that the only way they can survive financially is for her to work, and to support her kids through working? I know you prefer for women to get to play like little kids their whole lives, but I hope it's only the minority of women who are so immature and lazy.

Ah that's good for them. They have to learn to grow up and not whine so much. I was lucky that dad could take care of them and I got kids before the crisis when you got paid for 4 days and only had to work 2 for a year with each kid.

These kids grow up just fine. They have parents who love them and those parents find good daycare, or family members who can help with their kids. I was lucky to have time at home with them because of extended maternity leave in Europe (I had almost a year at home with mine) and by then I was glad to get back to work, because being at home full time would have made both me and the kids miserable.

What you see a lot here is because daycare is so expensive grandma's and granddads raise their grandkids while the parents work.
A friend of mine is a doctor so she earned much and had to pay extremely much for daycare. Her husband is a doctor too. She said: I'm not gonna work and give my whole salary to the daycare workers. I'll take care of my own kids.

Well good for her. I mean, what is the problem here? Although I see a lot of wasted training there. All those years studying to become a doctor and then dump it all to stay at home with the kids. Wow. I work with MDs and have many friends who are MDs, and I don't know one of them who, having been through 14-16 years of schooling, would then turn around and say "now I'm not even going to use it." Most of them got pregnant during residency or fellowship and took the time off then, but now they work in their field. Most of my female doctor friends also married doctors, and they are able to juggle their schedules so that someone is always there for the kids.

The thing all this moaning and complaining about working moms seems to forget is that, in a few years, kids go to full time school. There is no reason for anyone to be at home when the kids are at school, lol. What exactly is it that those moms are doing for their kids when they are at school 8am-4pm? Oh driving them to the school door, picking them up from the school door, because God forbid they have to get on a bus and deal with the real world. Helicopter parenting is a major problem in the US and it begins with exactly this kind of behavior. Then you have college age students who have to get mommy and daddy into their advising sessions, and waive FERPA so that their parents make all their decisions for them. Where do you think that ends? We have medical students who still want their parents to sit in for their advising. It's pathetic. When do they ever get to meet the world on its terms when parents are at their elbow from birth to adulthood? It's not like that in Europe. I made my own way to school with my siblings from 3rd grade, and how I wish we had remained there so my kids got that kind of life. But even then, my kids took the school bus here (and one still does). They were expected to have independence and make many of their own decisions. Most American kids don't have independence until they go away to college, and that is why so many of them go utterly wild.

 

[Saricharity]

Do you really think the husbands are feminists? Feminists are pro-women's rights, so why would a "feminist" husband force his wife to do something against her will? Or perhaps it's just that the only way they can survive financially is for her to work, and to support her kids through working? I know you prefer for women to get to play like little kids their whole lives, but I hope it's only the minority of women who are so immature and lazy.

Stay at home moms are immature and lazy? Wow! Have you ever met my mom? She is up at 5am everyday and balances children, a farm, being a pastors wife and community activities. No one would ever describe her as being lazy. It's actually pretty sad how women who chose to stay home have to defend themselves to other women who think this.

These kids grow up just fine. They have parents who love them and those parents find good daycare, or family members who can help with their kids.

Why not raise your own kids? Instead of depending on others who might have different values and ideas that you don't.

I was lucky to have time at home with them because of extended maternity leave in Europe (I had almost a year at home with mine) and by then I was glad to get back to work, because being at home full time would have made both me and the kids miserable.

Being at home is hard work isn't it? Investing yourself in your children and raising them is hard work. Being at home full time isn't an easy road is it? Why would you be miserable raising your own children? Why would it make your children miserable? That makes no sense to me. Of course, it's hard work and often boring and maybe not even stimulating to be with children all day but it's an investment. Everything we do in life...EVERYTHING...is what we chose to make it.

Well good for her. I mean, what is the problem here? Although I see a lot of wasted training there. All those years studying to become a doctor and then dump it all to stay at home with the kids. Wow. I work with MDs and have many friends who are MDs, and I don't know one of them who, having been through 14-16 years of schooling, would then turn around and say "now I'm not even going to use it." Most of them got pregnant during residency or fellowship and took the time off then, but now they work in their field. Most of my female doctor friends also married doctors, and they are able to juggle their schedules so that someone is always there for the kids.

I know plenty of women who spent years in school and decided to stay home after they had children. They wouldn't change that for the world. Investing themselves into their children is far more fulfilling to them then a career. Having 'someone' there for their kids isn't good enough for them. Childhood is very short.

The thing all this moaning and complaining about working moms seems to forget is that, in a few years, kids go to full time school. There is no reason for anyone to be at home when the kids are at school, lol. What exactly is it that those moms are doing for their kids when they are at school 8am-4pm?

Please tell me you are kidding right? So many stay at home parents are so involved in their communities ...on school boards, working at their children's schools, lunch monitors, and so on. Not to mention that it is a full time job to be at home They don't sit at home watching soap operas while their kids are at school. Attitudes that say what you are actually demean women too. It's so frustrating to me when I read other women saying such things. Spend a day with my mother and dare to say she is lazy and immature with nothing to do. As well, not all families chose to send their children to school either. It's about time we stop judging and start supporting all women in their choices.



Oh driving them to the school door, picking them up from the school door, because God forbid they have to get on a bus and deal with the real world. Helicopter parenting is a major problem in the US and it begins with exactly this kind of behavior. Then you have college age students who have to get mommy and daddy into their advising sessions, and waive FERPA so that their parents make all their decisions for them. Where do you think that ends? We have medical students who still want their parents to sit in for their advising. It's pathetic. When do they ever get to meet the world on its terms when parents are at their elbow from birth to adulthood? It's not like that in Europe. I made my own way to school with my siblings from 3rd grade, and how I wish we had remained there so my kids got that kind of life. But even then, my kids took the school bus here (and one still does). They were expected to have independence and make many of their own decisions. Most American kids don't have independence until they go away to college, and that is why so many of them go utterly wild.

Feminism should mean supporting choices WHATEVER they may be.

 

[Messy]

My immature mom, 80 years old and still playing LOL.

 

[Blue Wren]

Hmm..? When I wrote about short men, I wasn't just writing about myself but all shorter men. Despite how some may think I portray myself here, I am actually tolerant towards derogatory comments against small men. The only thing I expect is equal treatment with the genders. I'll laugh at comedies like the Simpsons and Family guy when they make fun of shorter men (especially if the joke is pretty harsh). The thing about these shows is that they make fun of everyone, including heavier and older looking women. Yet I will gladly rage at a woman's talk show that spends countless segments talking about how all body types of women are beautiful but sadly often take pot shots at shorter men

I'm open for people having different stances, all I ask is for people to be consistent. What angered me is that you women just defended the women. Why not defend the other shorter men here? If you defended neither I would have been fine with it too.


I never had the opportunity to continue being harsher to shorter men. You women only defended my comments regarding older women so I simply had to defend my original statements. If you brought up shorter men, I would have done the same thing too. The only difference being I would probably be less harsh regarding short and older women in my future posts, since I wouldn't have the anger of the inequality of your actions to egg me on.

It still goes back to you, making the mess, and whinging, when others don't clean it all up for you. There were still posts, from women & men, saying, no, that's not true that all women prefer taller men, etc. There wasn't, nearly as much, of a defense, as you had not slung mud, at short men, nearly as much, as you had at "older" women (as in, women the same age, as yourself, and older). The original post you wrote, about shorter men, and "older women," it was far ruder, towards women. You didn't make it a balanced offence, with your insults, from the start. Other people, they were consistent, yes.

Biologically I think I'm more spot on than many would like to admit. Also the men arguing against my assertions seemed to miss the point that I was simply talking about physical attraction when they listed the reasons they found older women more attractive was because of emotional maturity etc..

You weren't writing, for biology lessons, MehGuy. You were being spiteful. Someone, had accidentally upset you, about a comment, about favouring taller men. You then, wanted to rage, about women, in childish retaliation. You were writing, about how repulsive, arid, unattractive, ect, ect, etc, women were after the age of 25. It wasn't about biology, it about MehGuy. All completely rude & unnecessary. Biologically, there are evolutionary reasons, for why taller men, are preferred. Yet, nobody was making such disparaging comments, about short men, in that thread, like you were making nasty comments, about women. You made one comment, lightly, self-deprecating, about shorter men. Most of your posts, along with posts that quoted you, were deleted, as they were flaming.

 

[MehGuy]

It still goes back to you, making the mess, and whinging, when others don't clean it all up for you. There were still posts, from women & men, saying, no, that's not true that all women prefer taller men, etc.

Where? The only post I saw defending shorter men was from a guy. He was defending women too, so in his case he was consistent.

There wasn't, nearly as much, of a defense, as you had not slung mud, at short men, nearly as much, as you had at "older" women (as in, women the same age, as yourself, and older). The original post you wrote, about shorter men, and "older women," it was far ruder, towards women. You didn't make it a balanced offence, with your insults, from the start. Other people, they were consistent, yes.

Really? Because most of the original points I made about women I also applied to shorter men.. I didn't see myself being more rude to women's body issues. I had to write a little more about older women from the start, but that is because others already introduced the idea women prefer taller men.

You weren't writing, for biology lessons, MehGuy. You were being spiteful. Someone, had accidentally upset you, about a comment, about favouring taller men. You then, wanted to rage, about women, in childish retaliation. You were writing, about how repulsive, arid, unattractive, ect, ect, etc, women were after the age of 25. It wasn't about biology, it about MehGuy. All completely rude & unnecessary. Biologically, there are evolutionary reasons, for why taller men, are preferred. Yet, nobody was making such disparaging comments, about short men, in that thread, like you were making nasty comments, about women. You made one comment, lightly, self-deprecating, about shorter men. Most of your posts, along with posts that quoted you, were deleted, as they were flaming.

Uh, there are biological reasons for why men prefer younger women too. In fact my age of 25 being the tipping point was me being pretty generous. At the end of the day biology gives men and women plenty of reasons to be shallow.

 

[brewmama]

Feminism should mean supporting choices WHATEVER they may be.

Surely you don't really mean that. WHATEVER they may be??

 

[brewmama]

I'm floored that this is really the stance that anti-feminism takes and that some men agree with it. So the little princesses want to remain princesses and if they have to go to work to help support their family, they're all boo hoo hoo, it's not fair, I wanted to stay home and play. Geez. How entitled can anyone get? I suppose that their husbands are working every hour that comes their way, but that's okay. Let the old man die of a heart attack at 60, so long as I can play all day. It's sickening.

So you don't see home making and childrearing as worthy occupations?

 

[brewmama]

Never mind, I just read back through the thread and I don't want to get involved in a spat.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Feminism should mean supporting choices WHATEVER they may be.

Context, HGH. Context is vitally important for understanding Hetta's post, and for the applicability of your sentence above.

Editing to Add-

I hadn't read your entire statement before because it was tucked into the post you were quoting, and I'm dashing on here from my phone en route to (and now from) the competition. I still don't have time to address much but had wanted to reply to this particular part.

You wrote: "Why not raise your own kids? Instead of depending on others who might have different values and ideas that you don't" in response to Hetta stating: "These kids grow up just fine. They have parents who love them and those parents find good daycare, or family members who can help with their kids."

You asked if she knew your mom. She doesn't, but I do and I've never questioned her devotion to her children. We have mutual affection for one another. She has nine children she loves and who love her. The number of children she has, the necessity of her and you and your siblings contributing to daily operation of your farm, your rural location, and the affordability of where you live are all critical factors that influence the rationale of her choice to not work outside the home. I understand that you feel defensive when you think someone has belittled your mom's choices. I feel the same way, which is why I object to what you wrote.

You know that my mom and stepmom have fulfilling, meaningful careers, and that their work has significantly, tangibly benefited the lives of so many others in addition to their own and our family's. They are the most selfless, proactive, generous people I know. And my mom absolutely has raised me and my siblings. She's been every bit as devoted, as loving, as caring, as present as your mom. In fact, I was involved in quite literally ten times the number of activities as you were in high school, and my mom showed up with enthusiasm for everything, as well as for every game and every recital and every special events for my siblings. She's dived into supporting my college life with gusto, as she did with my brother when he went here. She's been instrumental in organizing a major fundraiser here next weekend. My stepmom has been equally committed to my life and my siblings, in addition to caring for other children as a pediatrician in her day job Monday through Friday and volunteering two Saturdays a month at the free family clinic.

I feel an abundance of gratitude to my parents for sending me to exceptional schools where thoughtful, engaging, highly educated and committed teachers with different ideas and beliefs than their own taught me, challenged me, and enriched me exponentially. I sent out thank you emails to teachers - both at school and with extracurricular pursuits such as painting and dance - dating back to the second grade when I got into Stanford because I credit them for helping me to be able to realize my dream. I feel like that exposure to a diversity of perspectives from both my teachers and my classmates is one of the most profound and useful gifts my parents have given to my life. Instead of feeling "dumped" I feel like I was elevated. It has expanded my academic, creative, and social horizons; made me a more committed and aware citizen; and stimulated me to develop my own thoughts and beliefs independently of my parents. It's why you don't hear me parrot my parents when I'm formulating my own reasons for my beliefs. I wouldn't want to be raised in a hermetic environment sealed off from authentic, active teachings about other viewpoints and concepts, and inhibited from forming long-term relationships with teachers and classmates from different religious and philosophical views.

You wrote about women investing themselves in their children's childhood. My mom has invested in our childhoods - with her talent, her love, her time, her support, and her finances. Same for my stepmom. You know my dad could pay for our tuition as if it was pocket change, but she has always insisted on them sharing the expenses so they were equally invested - literally and figuratively. Her success and commitment to us as her priority has helped to enable me and my siblings to attend the schools we have (that she painstakingly researched and made sure were the right fit for each of us), as well as to pursue our passions in the art, music, sports, and dance. She was involved in our schools, serving on the board at Mirman for years and even being active in the Parents Association at Stanford. Her dedication to our education was just as strong as your mom's. She's also been invested in improving the childhoods of some of the most vulnerable kids through her work.

 

[The Antigrrrl]

I'm floored that this is really the stance that anti-feminism takes and that some men agree with it. So the little princesses want to remain princesses and if they have to go to work to help support their family, they're all boo hoo hoo, it's not fair, I wanted to stay home and play. Geez. How entitled can anyone get? I suppose that their husbands are working every hour that comes their way, but that's okay. Let the old man die of a heart attack at 60, so long as I can play all day. It's sickening.

wow, heck froze over, I totally agree with you.

 

[The Antigrrrl]

Dutch men don't get a heart attack from working. I never dated one who had a job. The ones that have don't work more than 40 hours. Most work 32 and have a dads day. That's because we don't need luxury like big expensive houses and cars. A bike and a 2 room rent apartment are really cheap here. We value free time and time with the kids over money, so we don't get enslaved by that nonsense.
Women who care for their husband who works 40 hours, clean up and take care of a bunch of kids full time work hard enough.
Why force them to work? In daycare maybe? Take care of someone elses baby? And then give 1/3 of their income to unemployed totally healthy men?
Gosh I hate feminism.

Somewhat different in US, I know a lot of stay at home moms who I wouldn't pay to watch my kids ( wouldn't let them watch my kids even if they paid me) with husbands busting themselves to support the family and getting nagged out when they do get home for " not doing their share". Not pretty.

 

[Messy]

Somewhat different in US, I know a lot of stay at home moms who I wouldn't pay to watch my kids ( wouldn't let them watch my kids even if they paid me) with husbands busting themselves to support the family and getting nagged out when they do get home for " not doing their share". Not pretty.

Terrible, yes then I understand the comment.
Those old fashioned men who provide for their family are scarse here. My dad is one. My mother worked 3 days a week but only when I was 5 and my siblings 15 and 13.
Those bossy men aren't that bad. Actually they're great.