• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

"I'm not an expert, BUT......."

Naraoia

Apprentice Biologist
Sep 30, 2007
6,682
313
On edge
Visit site
✟23,498.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
How many people have claimed to have experienced a common Creator?
"Claimed" being the operative word :p

I have said this before and I'll say it again. Only genetic descent creates nested hierarchies.
IMO a better way to put it would be that genetic descent ONLY creates nested hierarchies, whereas any other process of origin could create a different structure, and there's no particular reason why they shouldn't.

Which, of course, still leaves the following point standing:

If your god created life so it fit in an inclusive nested hierarchy, then he wanted us to believe in common descent. That would make him a deceiver, which you claim he is not.

As for your question, it makes no sense. How does one "experience" a common ape ancestor??
With magic mushrooms?
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Supporting evidence.

Ah, but therein lies the rub. Astronomers have been claiming for years now that their 'maths' constitute 'supporting evidence' of SUSY theories. When we get to the lab however, there is NO supporting evidence whatsoever, and evidence that the 'maths' that they have been using when pointing at the sky are MEANINGLESS in term of empirical, experimental evidence from the lab. In fact particle physicists that are proponents of SUSY theory have been doing the same thing for years now. None of those "maths" seems to have any meaning whatsoever at actually predicting events in the lab.

Except you're not trying to "predict" truth, you're claiming to have it already.
What is that experimental data if not "evidence" that SUSY theory is falsified, along with every "cold dark matter" theory put forth by mainstream theory that is based upon SUSY theory, namely *ALL* of it?

"scientific consensus" is the first step, not the last.
IMO it still comes back to pure empirical laboratory physics. You and I both believe in things that can be demonstrated in the lab. We may not agree on things like SUSY theory that have in effect already been falsified in the lab IMO, but it's not likely that we are going to disagree over things that "work" in the lab.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
A theory explains the evidences!

That gets hard to assess when the "evidence" is purely mathematical in nature with no supporting physical demonstrations of concept. SUSY theory looked "great", and even "elegant" on paper (mathematically), but it's evidently a total dud in the lab (physically).

Theories can be refined and or even discarded when new evidence is discovered.
So shouldn't we now discard SUSY theories and every astronomy theory that is based upon SUSY theory?

Some theories are unlikely to ever be discarded as they have overwhelming evidences supporting it; One such theory is EVOLUTION! So get over it!
Ya, but that's a very specific type of theory, one that enjoys empirical laboratory support. You're comparing metaphysical apples to empirical oranges by comparing SUSY theory to evolutionary theories, or electrical engineering theories. Some theories enjoy strong empirical laboratory support, others do not.

Evidence please!!!
What empirical evidence supports SUSY theory or any cosmology theory that is based upon SUSY theory? You're improperly shifting the burden of proof onto me, when in fact it falls to you. If the Higgs and SUSY particles exist, where's the empirical evidence of their existence? I'll be happy to give you some slack as it relates to the Higgs Boson because there are so many possible energy ranges to consider, but SUSY theories have very specific energy ranges associated with such extensions to standard theory, and those energy ranges have already been looked at. Nothing is there.
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
No one has ever experienced their respective deity creating.

Yes, and likewise, nobody has ever experienced a Higgs Boson, or a SUSY particle, inflation, dark energy, yada yada (scientific) yada. Are any of these scientific theories still worth considering in your opinion? If so, why? If not, why not?
 
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,464
597
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I have said this before and I'll say it again. Only genetic descent creates nested hierarchies.
Only if you ignore God's word:

“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground...From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth.” (Gen 2:7, Acts 17:26).
If your god created life so it fit in an inclusive nested hierarchy, then he wanted us to believe in common descent. That would make him a deceiver, which you claim he is not.
I don’t buy this lame argument that God would be a deceiver if your fallible, scientific interpretation was not correct.

If God had told us to rely only on “sight” like scientists do and not on “faith” as He commands us to, then you would have a point. As it stands right now: “We walk by faith, not by sight.” (2 Cor 5:7).

"By faith" in this context means trusting in God's word despite what we see.

It is those who rely only on “sight” who end up being deceived by what they see.

“Though seeing, they do not see...you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become dull.” (Matt 13:13-15).
As for your question, it makes no sense. How does one "experience" a common ape ancestor??
That’s my point. You can’t.

But you can experience God. Therefore "Common Creator" is more convincing.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,464
597
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If you contrast that with the experience of a common ancestor, you should be so honest to admit that there are also ZERO people who have experienced a common creator.

No one has ever experienced their respective deity creating.
“Common Creator” in this context is an adjective, not a verb.
 
Upvote 0

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,713
3,762
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟260,281.00
Faith
Atheist
Yes, and likewise, nobody has ever experienced a Higgs Boson, or a SUSY particle, inflation, dark energy, yada yada (scientific) yada. Are any of these scientific theories still worth considering in your opinion? If so, why? If not, why not?
Before I will answer your question, I'd like to ask a question of my own: my post was made in response to a very special claim. Neither the original claim nor my answer had anything to do with SUSY, Higgs Bosons or dark energy.

So why do you think it is a good starting point to go off to such an unrelated tangent? Why do chose to ask me about scientific theories, but refrain from asking Doveaman about his faulty logic?


Now to answer your question: yes, I consider these scientific theories still worth considering.
You should consider that, at some point, there was a lot more of scientific yada yada yada that no one had ever "experienced"... up to the point where someone did. Most of this yada was discovered because scientists had a theory that predicted were it should be and started looking for it. Sometimes they didn't find anything and had to adapt their theories. I am quite certain that these adaptions will happen to SUSY and the rest, if the predicted effects continue not to show up.
 
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,464
597
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
But it is a verbal adjective, and thus it has to be active in order to be experienced.
If it was possible for you to go back in time to meet your common ape ancestor you would have experienced your common ape ancestor despite not seeing him or her reproduce your parents.

I can experience the hurricane that blew down your house without seeing the hurricane blow down your house.

We can experience our Common Creator without seeing Him create.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,713
3,762
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟260,281.00
Faith
Atheist
If it was possible for you to go back in time to meet your common ape ancestor you would experience your common ape ancestor despite not seeing him or her reproduce your parents.

We can experience our Common Creator without seeing Him create.

You cannot experienc it as being the "Common Creator" without it seeing create though.
 
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,464
597
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Sometimes they didn't find anything and had to adapt their theories. I am quite certain that these adaptions will happen to SUSY and the rest, if the predicted effects continue not to show up.
Sounds like you are describing a religion.

Sometimes they didn't find anything and had to adapt their religion. I am quite certain that these adaptions will happen to your religion, if the predicted effects continue not to show up. :)
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Only if you ignore God's word:

“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground...From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth.” (Gen 2:7, Acts 17:26).
Since you guys have repeatedly demonstrated you have no mechanism to determine when your fallible interpretation of scripture is correct, then yes, I will continue to ignore it. When one of you can actually deliever on what "God's Word" is, then I will listen.

I don’t buy this lame argument that God would be a deceiver if your fallible, scientific interpretation was not correct.
That's the only reasonable conclusion. I know you guys don't do "reasonable," of course.

If God had told us to rely only on “sight” like scientists do and not on “faith” as He commands us to, then you would have a point. As it stands right now: “We walk by faith, not by sight.” (2 Cor 5:7).
Do you walk by faith or sight when you cross a busy street?

"By faith" in this context means trusting in God's word despite what we see.

It is those who rely only on “sight” who end up being deceived by what they see.

Then I guess you should close your eyes the next time you cross a busy street, and just depend on when God tells you to cross.


That’s my point. You can’t.

But you can experience God. Therefore "Common Creator" is more convincing.
You'd never convince a jury with that logic.
 
Upvote 0

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,713
3,762
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟260,281.00
Faith
Atheist
Sounds like you are describing a religion.

Sometimes they didn't find anything and had to adapt their religion. I am quite certain that these adaptions will happen to your religion, if the predicted effects continue not to show up. :)

And, as I am sure you would be telling me if I asked, you don't have a religion, correct?
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
If it was possible for you to go back in time to meet your common ape ancestor you would have experienced your common ape ancestor despite not seeing him or her reproduce your parents.

I can experience the hurricane that blew down your house without seeing the hurricane blow down your house.

We can experience our Common Creator without seeing Him create.

By such examples, we can 'experience" our common ancestor by the marks left in our genome, development, morphology, fossil record, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
30,699
15,166
Seattle
✟1,174,910.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Sounds like you are describing a religion.

Sometimes they didn't find anything and had to adapt their religion. I am quite certain that these adaptions will happen to your religion, if the predicted effects continue not to show up. :)


So anything that adapts is a religion now? Or are you just trying to equivocate the two? In what specific sense does this sound like a religion to you?
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Before I will answer your question, I'd like to ask a question of my own: my post was made in response to a very special claim. Neither the original claim nor my answer had anything to do with SUSY, Higgs Bosons or dark energy.

So why do you think it is a good starting point to go off to such an unrelated tangent? Why do chose to ask me about scientific theories, but refrain from asking Doveaman about his faulty logic?

Well, A) I don't believe it's a tangent, I believe it's related, and B) because my question addresses an issue that I believe is important. Let me explain:

Now to answer your question: yes, I consider these scientific theories still worth considering.
Then by that logic, pretty much any theistic theory under the sun is worthy of consideration by your (non-empirical) standards IMO. If something like SUSY theory, which enjoys *ZERO* empirical laboratory support is worthy of further consideration, then all theistic beliefs must also be entertained and deemed "worthy".

You should consider that, at some point, there was a lot more of scientific yada yada yada that no one had ever "experienced"... up to the point where someone did.
Yet you seem to exclude the possibility that Jesus had some experiences (of God) that you personally did not?

Most of this yada was discovered because scientists had a theory that predicted were it should be and started looking for it.
Hmmm. Jesus said that in the end, we are *IN* God. He started "looking" for the being he called the "Father" through prayer and meditation. Have you tried that recently? :)

If for instance I "lack belief" in SUSY theory, can you even tell me where I might go to find some empirical support of the concept, or even any "experiential" support of the idea?

Sometimes they didn't find anything and had to adapt their theories.
But absolutely every "yada" on my list lacks empirical laboratory support. Is "God" (as creator) on your list of "scientific theories"? If not, why not?

I am quite certain that these adaptions will happen to SUSY and the rest, if the predicted effects continue not to show up.
They've been "not showing up" rather consistently now since the theory was originally proposed. That's never stopped astronomers from pointing at the sky and claiming that SUSY particles did it. The same can be said of "dark energy", particularly since not a single astronomer can even tell us where it comes from. It can certainly be said for Guth's "inflation" genie. I mean he literally 'invented' the concept in his head, and then impolitely killed it off in the next breath. It's necessarily an 'act of faith' on the part of the "believer" *FOREVER AND EVER* because it can NEVER have any tangible effect on any atom in any lab.

IMO you're WAY too liberal on what you accept as "scientific" and I have no idea in the world how you could have possibly ruled out the "empirical" theory of God that I have proposed on this board. IMO you don't have an empirical leg to stand on, so your criticism of Doveman's logic is moot. :)
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
So anything that adapts is a religion now? Or are you just trying to equivocate the two? In what specific sense does this sound like a religion to you?

Wouldn't you admit that the empirical theory of God that I put forth is 'adaptive'? Would you call it a "religion"? Would you call it a "scientific theory"? Why, or why not?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
But it is a verbal adjective, and thus it has to be active in order to be experienced.

You are correct that the "common creator" has to tangibly effect the world around us, right here, right now. Otherwise it's "deism", not "theism".
 
Upvote 0

Naraoia

Apprentice Biologist
Sep 30, 2007
6,682
313
On edge
Visit site
✟23,498.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Michael rants about mainstream physics yet again.

I'm just going to remind you that there is a difference between

(A) Testable and untestable ideas (SUSY is just being tested at the LHC - how do you test a god?)

(B) Ideas without supporting evidence and ideas with contradicting evidence (there's little aside from mathematical possibility to support the existence of other universes - but there's nothing against it, either, unlike poor SUSY)

Untestable ideas are useless even if they are true, ideas with contradicting evidence are false no matter how useful they would have been, but testable ideas without evidence at least have a chance of being useful.
 
Upvote 0

Michael

Contributor
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
25,145
1,721
Mt. Shasta, California
Visit site
✟320,648.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Since you guys have repeatedly demonstrated you have no mechanism to determine when your fallible interpretation of scripture is correct, then yes, I will continue to ignore it. When one of you can actually deliever on what "God's Word" is, then I will listen.

FYI, it's called "unconditional love". :) I'm sure you listen to your heart on such matters all the time, you just don't necessarily relate to it as such. The "Golden Rule" is probably still engrained into your personal sense of "morality" somewhere in there IMO. ;)

I suppose that's why Jesus told us to love our enemies. :)

That's the only reasonable conclusion. I know you guys don't do "reasonable," of course.

FYI, according to John, Jesus is the living "Word of God", not a lifeless book. Everyone individually and subjectively "interprets" that book, and every book. The experience of unconditional love however is pretty much a universal experience IMO.

Do you walk by faith or sight when you cross a busy street?

Does it have to be one or the other? Blind folks seem to get around pretty well. :)
 
Upvote 0