I'm lost..

[iamlamad]

Looking through those doctrines of men of a pre-trib rapture again I see bro.

1 Thess.4 reveals the resurrection of life per John 5:28-29, which happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. There is no 'secret' coming prior to that day, and that day is the last day of this world.

Your interpretation of 'escape' in Luke 21 implies a secret rapture when there is no such mention. Maybe you don't understand that His command to flee Judea when they see those armies surrounding Jerusalem is a last day event? (see Zephaniah 3:8-9)

Who has ever said that the NEXT coming (That would be His 2nd coming, not His 3rd coming to Armageddon) when He comes only to the clouds would be "secret?" It is going to be very noisy, and all will know SOMETHING supernatural has happened. It may be visible, or invisible: God has not told us either way.

Calling the rapture "secret" is using a straw man argument: create something you can destroy. The truth is, it won't be "secret." For sure all believers will know it! And a second after (if it is invisible) the world will know.

To deny the rapture is to deny a portion of the written word of God, and is not wise.

that day is the last day of this world. This is error magnified: absolutely not true. It WILL BE the last day of the church age. But the "world" will continue: after the rapture, then the 6th seal, the 7th seal, the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials will take place.

Your interpretation of 'escape' The posttrib doctrine IGNORES Luke 21:36. Of course, they MUST ignore it, for it stands opposed to the posttrib doctrine. There IS an escape planned. The only escape anyone can find in scriptures is the pretrib rapture. For the readers, the posttrib theory HAS NO ESCAPE.

Maybe you don't understand that His command to flee Judea when they see those armies surrounding Jerusalem is a last day event? Wrong again. Zep 3:8-9 has nothing to do with the time Jesus told those in Judea to escape. He said when they see the abomination - the very event that will DIVIDE the week into two halves. The truth then, The Zep. scripture is about Armageddon, But Jesus told them to flee at the midpoint of the week.

 

[iamlamad]

Again Christ has foretold us all things. The disciples asks for signs of his coming (singular) and the signs for the end of the world. He lays it out perfectly and Paul is a second witness. He doesn't say this is only for the disciples and both him and Paul taught to the elect. And to say that Christ purposely omitted a rapture only to have God unfold it to Paul is not biblical. Especially when Paul backs him up in his teaching.

The mystery that Paul talks about is that we will "all" be changed at the last trump.

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

He mentions nothing about going anywhere but that we will be changed at the last trump.

As for the wedding feast. Since it takes place on the temple mount as mentioned in Isaiah, I plan to take part.



If you had read my earlier post you would see my thoughts on the Anitchrist. I gave scriptures, not my own opinions.



Please provide scipture stating Paul tells us the rapture was a secret.

I think people get confused when they split up the tribes. Revelation says only 10,000 will be from the tribe of Judah during the tribulation. The others sealed will be from the others scattered back in the day. Judah, Benjamin and Levites (some other scribes mixing in..) remained. Yet, people lump Jews into being the entire 144,000. That again is not biblical and can generate more confusion.


We need to let Christ and Paul do the teaching. When we insert our own opinions without scripture to back it up, it's just that, our own opinions.





Not sure you're meaning here. Paul is continuing his thoughts on the subject of 1st Thes 4:17


I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

He's talking about the same event. And he goes on to say this,

Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Peace and safety because the most of the world will be worshipping Antichrist and then bam, God's wrath. That's why we are to study so that day does not overtake us as a thief.

Just curious, what is your interpretation of this verse?

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

In Context, one taken and one left is probably the parable of the tares taking place. Jesus is not going to share the earth with lawless people. They are tares and will be removed at His coming to Armageddon.

He's talking about the same event. Agreed. But events have timing. For example, the dead rise before the living. That is timing. From the Old Testament, the Day of the Lord is a DARK day in which God will destroy the world and the sinner on the world. I suspect you have read all the verses in the Old Testament about the Day of the Lord -and that is is the Day of His wrath.

How then does the rapture fit into wrath? In my mind these are like opposites! God is not angry at the church! There is no wrath at all directed at those being caught up. That is why Paul wrote 4:17 before He wrote 5:1-2. The rapture events happen FIRST, and THEN the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath begins. That is why I say that the rapture will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord. Rapture first, then wrath.

If we understand Paul, the dead in Christ will fly up out of the ground SUDDENLY and with no warning. And it will be at a time when people are thinking and saying "peace and safety." Sorry, Sister, but I doubt ANYONE will be saying that after the bowls of God's wrath have been poured out. However, it fits a day just like today.

So the dead in Christ rise first, and suddenly - and without any warning. If we understand Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened:" that when God instantly brings together the "dust" to reform human bodies that have been long turned to dust: that will cause an earthquake. So when the dead in Christ rise, some dead for nearly 2000 years, that instant in time when God brings together those particles that once made up those bodies - it is going to cause a worldwide earthquake. And that will be the "sudden destruction" that Paul talked about. (The dead in Christ are indeed around the world.)

So a moment (a very tiny moment in time) after the dead in christ (their bodies) fly up from the graves into the air, Paul gives us a paradigm of two groups of people: those who are alive and remain will be caught up, right as they feel the ground begin to quake - but those NOT IN CHRIST will be left behind and at the same instant of time that one group is caught up - the other group is left behind when the earth is experiencing the world's first world wide earthquake: Paul's "sudden destruction."

Paul wrote that we get "salvation" (raptured) and get to "live together with Him ("So shall we ever be with the Lord.") But at the same time, THEY get "sudden destruction."

Paul then relates the sudden destruction (which I am sure will be an earthquake) to the wrath of God, telling us that God will NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath. The appointments with His wrath will be set for all those left behind.

Sister, there is only one place in Revelation that I can fit all these points Paul tells us of: that is just before the 6th seal start of the Day of His wrath.

And to say that Christ purposely omitted a rapture only to have God unfold it to Paul is not biblical OF COURSE it is biblical! It is what is written and what is not written. The only words of Jesus I can find that relates to Paul's rapture is in John 14. That relates to all who come to Christ during the church age. Jesus went to prepare homes for us. And He is going to come and get us and take us to those homes He has prepared. MANY people have gone to heaven and returned to tell us of the glory of those mansions. Some have been shown their OWN mansion. Lately people have been told that all the mansions are complete: heaven is waiting on the bride.

The mystery that Paul talks about is that we will "all" be changed at the last trump. Agreed. But almost all bible scholars relate this scripture with 1 Thes. 4. WHEN will our bodies be changed? When we are caught up at the rapture. There is no timing information in 1 Cor. 15, but there IS in 1 Thes. Indeed, it was a mystery before it was told to Paul. NO ONE knew that those alive at the time would be caught up with the dead! But now many know.

He mentions nothing about going anywhere but that we will be changed at the last trump. True, but OTHER SCRIPTURES tell us where. John 14.

As for the wedding feast. Since it takes place on the temple mount as mentioned in Isaiah, I plan to take part. Sorry. Isaiah may speak of some feast on a mountain, but Revelation is very very clear that the marriage supper will take place in heaven BEFORE Jesus descends to Armageddon. We should ALWAYS interpret Old Testament scriptures through the New. NO postribber has ever figured out how the church will get to heaven for the marriage supper. Of course they attempt to solve it as you have: say it takes place some other time or at some other place. Yet, posttribber say it is the pretribbers that twist scripture! Rev. 19:

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come [right there at that instant in time], and his wife hath made herself ready.
[the context is in heaven: see the first 6 verses.]
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. [The marriage always comes before the supper, so at this time we know the marriage ceremony is over. It is now time for the supper: right here in heaven and right at this time.] And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [This is Jesus descending with the armies of heaven. the marriage and supper are over. Some posttribbers have insisted that the feast for the birds - feasting on the dead carcuses - is the "marriage supper." HOW GROSS!]

The way this is written, it would be twisting or rearranging to believe the supper will be later on earth.

 

[Douggg]

Looking through those doctrines of men of a pre-trib rapture again I see bro.

1 Thess.4 reveals the resurrection of life per John 5:28-29, which happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. There is no 'secret' coming prior to that day, and that day is the last day of this world.

Your interpretation of 'escape' in Luke 21 implies a secret rapture when there is no such mention. Maybe you don't understand that His command to flee Judea when they see those armies surrounding Jerusalem is a last day event? (see Zephaniah 3:8-9)

When Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19 with his armies of heaven, will the world be saying "peace and safety" ?

If no man knows the day nor hour - is that a secret?

 

[Davy]

When Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19 with his armies of heaven, will the world be saying "peace and safety" ?

If no man knows the day nor hour - is that a secret?

Like I said, the Luke 21 Jesus gave in warning to flee Judea when they see the armies surrounding Jerusalem, and for those of His in the countries to not enter in, that is a last day Sign, not a pre-trib rapture.

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

That "days of vengeance" is about the last day of this world when Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord", coming "as a thief" like He said. It is tied to the event in Isaiah 61:2 where He didn't finish reading in Luke 4 because only what He read was about His 1st coming.

So you've got more than one pointer by our Lord Jesus there of His coming on the last day of this world, and given linked with the following...

Luke 21:28
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

That is a post-tribulational coming and gathering of the Church, and not a pre-trib coming and gathering.

 

[JulieB67]

From the Old Testament, the Day of the Lord is a DARK day in which God will destroy the world

It's only a dark day to the wicked.

As Paul states in 1st Thes 5

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

You seem to believe we have to be protected from God's wrath. We will be in spiritual bodies at that time in an instant at the last trump.

And people will be thinking peace and safety because they will be living under a false sense of peace and safety when Antichrist is here playing Savior.

This is also why Jesus says he comes at an hour most do not expect. They will think he is already here. And then bam God's wrath.

There is no timing information in 1 Cor. 15

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."



This very clearly states "last trump" , it means fartherest one out. It is the last trump. We will be changed at that time when Christ returns for the second time. It doesn't say some are changed and whisked off, it says all are changed at the last trump. After the 7th sounds, this earth age has ended.

heaven is waiting on the bride.

Jesus is to remain in Heaven until the restitution of ALL things.

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

These same holy prophets that you brushed over with this comment,

Isaiah may speak of some feast on a mountain,

Like Jesus asks often, "Haven't you read?'

Much of Isaiah is (esp 24 and 25) a witness and parallels what's going to happen in Revelation.

 

[Douggg]

That is a post-tribulational coming and gathering of the Church, and not a pre-trib coming and gathering.

Okay, so you believe in a post trib, no man knows the nor hour, secret rapture.

As to my other question, When Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19 with his armies of heaven, will the world be saying "peace and safety" ? You did not answer.

 

[iamlamad]

Like I said, the Luke 21 Jesus gave in warning to flee Judea when they see the armies surrounding Jerusalem, and for those of His in the countries to not enter in, that is a last day Sign, not a pre-trib rapture.

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

That "days of vengeance" is about the last day of this world when Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord", coming "as a thief" like He said. It is tied to the event in Isaiah 61:2 where He didn't finish reading in Luke 4 because only what He read was about His 1st coming.

So you've got more than one pointer by our Lord Jesus there of His coming on the last day of this world, and given linked with the following...

Luke 21:28
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

That is a post-tribulational coming and gathering of the Church, and not a pre-trib coming and gathering.

So if Matthew wrote that Jesus said to flee when you see the abomination - and Luke wrote that Jesus said to flee when you see the city surrounded - doesn't that tell us that the man of sin will wait until Jerusalem is surrounded and THEN enter the temple and tell the world He is God?

Now I have a better picture of WHY there will be no time for a coat or to tell anybody anything; only time to run fro their life!

By the way, the timing of the above is in Daniel 9:27. More later

 

[jgr]

So if Matthew wrote that Jesus said to flee when you see the abomination - and Luke wrote that Jesus said to flee when you see the city surrounded - doesn't that tell us that the man of sin will wait until Jerusalem is surrounded and THEN enter the temple and tell the world He is God?

Now I have a better picture of WHY there will be no time for a coat or to tell anybody anything; only time to run fro their life!

By the way, the timing of the above is in Daniel 9:27. More later

Those foolish ignorant disciples.

Didn't they know that Jesus wasn't telling them to flee?

So they disobeyed, and fled, and survived.

They were to supposed to stay in Jerusalem and await their slaughter.

Will God forgive them?

 

[Douggg]

Those foolish ignorant disciples.

Didn't they know that Jesus wasn't telling them to flee?

So they disobeyed, and fled, and survived.

They were to supposed to stay in Jerusalem and await their slaughter.

Will God forgive them?

jgr, you are confusing me with your sarcasm, as to the point you are wanting to make.

The disciples, later became know as the apostles. In 70 ad, where were they? They were in the nations spreading the gospel, were they not? And the instructions were for them in Judaea to flee was into the mountains.

 

[iamlamad]

It's only a dark day to the wicked.

As Paul states in 1st Thes 5

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

This "overtake" speaks of the timing of the day, not what happens during the day. This verse speaks of the day itself and God's plan for that day:

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

So this is God's plan for the day. Note that the trumpet judgments begin to fulfill His plan for the day, "hurting" the earth, proving that the Day starts at the 6th seal right where John tells us it will. I can find nothing good about the Day of the Lord that would hint it would be good for the saints. When the nuclear war hits, as God burns up all the grass and 1/3 of the trees: any saints in the way will become vaporized. Nothing good there for any saints. When God turns the fresh water into blood, it will happen for the saints as well as for the sinners. It is a day of destruction for all alive at that time.

You seem to believe we have to be protected from God's wrath. We will be in spiritual bodies at that time in an instant at the last trump.

Posttribbers imagine that last trump is "after the tribulation of those days." Sorry, if the rapture comes after the trib, then the church must live during the trib in natural bodies. God wrath is not going to be any respector of persons: when God turns all the fresh water to blood, it will affect the saints as well as the sinners. When a Nuke hits, it is going to affect both the saint and the sinner alike.

There are two scriptures pointed right at the saints for those days: one in Daniel and one in Revelation: BOTH tell us the saints will be overcome. Think about that for a while. In this case, there WILL BE respect for persons: only the saints will be overcome! The beast is not going to be chasing those who take the mark; only those who refuse the mark. This is why God's and Paul's rapture is pretrib: God's plan is for ALL His people to be taken safely out. That is the thought behind Rev. 7: two events that MUST happen before the 70th week begins: the sealing of the 144,000 and the church seen safely in heaven.

Note carefully John's (and the Holy Spirit's) timing: God waiting for the final church age martyr (the 5th seal), then the rapture a moment BEFORE the start of the DAY (the 6th seal), then a few days later the start of the 70th week (the 7th seal) Then the 70th week, including those days of GT (starting after the angel warnings in chapter 14) then the vials to shorten those days of GT, then an unknown time and suddenly like a thief Jesus returns, WITH His saints.

It seems from the scripture that God is going to allow anyone to set their OWN appointment with His wrath, but I wonder why anyone WOULD, when God has made a way of escape. Could you explain that?

And people will be thinking peace and safety because they will be living under a false sense of peace and safety when Antichrist is here playing Savior.

The covenant is made for the 7 years (probably in secret) but God will open the 7th seal in heaven so heaven will know the week is about to start with the trumpet judgments. I think "peace and safety" fits a day like today better than any day during the 70th week. However, it is remotely possible that it is the man of sin who will give the Jews permission to build their temple at the beginning of the week. I doubt it though. I see the first three trumpets as nuclear war. It is my guess Israel WINS and they decide for themselves to build the temple. We will have to wait and see how that plays out.

Paul has tied the time of "peace and safety" to the time of the rapture, which fits a pretrib rapture, not a posttrib. This is another proof of pretrib I have never thought of before. AS those in Christ are being caught up, those left behind are facing the "sudden destruction." It will probably all happen iniside one second of time.

This is also why Jesus says he comes at an hour most do not expect. They will think he is already here. And then bam God's wrath.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

This very clearly states "last trump" , it means fartherest one out. It is the last trump. We will be changed at that time when Christ returns for the second time. It doesn't say some are changed and whisked off, it says all are changed at the last trump. After the 7th sounds, this earth age has ended.

Yes, of course the "last trump" would be the last of a series (not the last one ever to sound on earth). It is certainly not the last of the series in Revelation. They are a different series sounded by angels. The last trump will be sounded by our Lord.

I also agree it will be at His second coming, since He has come once already. It will NOT be at His third coming as seen in Rev. 19. I agree: the dead are changed into living, resurrection bodies, and those who are alive are changed also. And we all fly up into the air where Christ will be: in a cloud. Paul tells us this is just before the Day of the Lord or just before God's wrath begins.

NOT "the earth age:" what ends at the rapture is the CHURCH AGE, and "time" switches instantly back to Israel's time: the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel. It is church age today and right up to the rapture; an instant later is the the Day of the Lord. There is no time between. You seem to think the 70th week is for the church, when Daniel says it is for HIS people. If you can figure out how a nuke will hurt only the sinners, how the sea into blood kills only the sinner, how all those events of the 70th week affect only the sinner, then you might be on the way to explaining how the saints can be protected. However, what are you going to do with the two verses that tell us exactly what is going to happen with the saints? They are going to be overcome. Is there something about "overcome" you don't understand? The saints are going to be prevailed over by the Beast.

Imagine you are a Jew in Berlin and it's 1943, and you are trying to hide. What are your chances? I would say NONE. I don't think ANY Jew survived in Berlin: they were "overcome." Some were killed on the spot, others were moved. What am I saying? Don't think a big percentage of the saints going through the 70th week are going to survive. What posttribers are really believing is that God's plan is to behead His bride. I don't think that is the kind of God we serve. NO man would beat his wife to within an inch of her life and then tell her how much he loves her and ask her to marry him! This is what posttribbers are saying. Just the very character of God should tell posttribbers their theory is off.

Jesus is to remain in Heaven until the restitution of ALL things.

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

These same holy prophets that you brushed over with this comment,

Like Jesus asks often, "Haven't you read?'

Much of Isaiah is (esp 24 and 25) a witness and parallels what's going to happen in Revelation.

Just when is "the restitution of all things?" I would say it would begin with the Day of the Lord. And that is when Jesus comes FOR His saints. I see no conflicts.

I agree with you on Isaiah 24 and 25. But there is no hint that the feast there is the marriage feast. Revelation, however, is very clear on the timing of the marriage supper.

 

[iamlamad]

Those foolish ignorant disciples.

Didn't they know that Jesus wasn't telling them to flee?

So they disobeyed, and fled, and survived.

They were to supposed to stay in Jerusalem and await their slaughter.

Will God forgive them?

Do I have to quote what Jesus said? Surely you have read it. ANYONE in Judea is to flee when they see the abomination. Sorry, but this does not fit 70 AD. The the armies came, but backed off, and the Christians escaped. Then Titus surrounded the city again - but this time to war. NO ONE could escape then.

Sometime in our FUTURE when the temple will be built again: the man of sin will enter the temple and declare He is God. It is written and it will surely take place. Do YOu live in Judea? If not, no need to flee. Jesus did not speak to those in the US or other nations to flee. You are mistaken.

 

[jgr]

jgr, you are confusing me with your sarcasm, as to the point you are wanting to make.

The disciples, later became know as the apostles. In 70 ad, where were they? They were in the nations spreading the gospel, were they not? And the instructions were for them in Judaea to flee was into the mountains.

"Disciples" generically includes all of the Christians in Jerusalem and Judea, all of whom escaped to Pella prior to the Roman invasion, and survived. Jesus' warnings were obviously passed down, beginning with His twelve disciples, to Jerusalem/Judean Christians in the intervening years between the Olivet discourse and the flight to Pella prior to AD70.

 

[jgr]

Do I have to quote what Jesus said? Surely you have read it. ANYONE in Judea is to flee when they see the abomination. Sorry, but this does not fit 70 AD. The the armies came, but backed off, and the Christians escaped. Then Titus surrounded the city again - but this time to war. NO ONE could escape then.

Sometime in our FUTURE when the temple will be built again: the man of sin will enter the temple and declare He is God. It is written and it will surely take place. Do YOu live in Judea? If not, no need to flee. Jesus did not speak to those in the US or other nations to flee. You are mistaken.

The Jews did not flee at that time because they did not believe Jesus' words.
The Jews will never believe Jesus' words, and they will never flee.

No temple will be built again, and no man of sin will enter it.

You err.

 

[Davy]

Okay, so you believe in a post trib, no man knows the nor hour, secret rapture.

As to my other question, When Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19 with his armies of heaven, will the world be saying "peace and safety" ? You did not answer.

I believe the actual written Scripture, and a post-trib coming and gathering of the saints is what Jesus showed in that Luke 21 chapter. It goes with Matthew and Mark's version of that also when He was upon the Mount of Olivet with His disciples giving them the signs of the end leading to His 2nd coming. In Matthew and Mark's versions, He was more emphatic, showing His coming to gather His saints will be immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

 

[Douggg]

"Disciples" generically includes all of the Christians in Jerusalem and Judea, all of whom escaped to Pella prior to the Roman invasion, and survived. Jesus' warnings were obviously passed down, beginning with His twelve disciples, to Jerusalem/Judean Christians in the intervening years between the Olivet discourse and the flight to Pella prior to AD70.

The disciples are generally considered the twelve disciples (minus Judas). Christians, on the other hand, are the broad group of believers. If you meant all Christians, then say all Christians, and be specific - Christians in Jerusalem and Judaea.

 

[Douggg]

I believe the actual written Scripture, and a post-trib coming and gathering of the saints is what Jesus showed in that Luke 21 chapter. It goes with Matthew and Mark's version of that also when He was upon the Mount of Olivet with His disciples giving them the signs of the end leading to His 2nd coming. In Matthew and Mark's versions, He was more emphatic, showing His coming to gather His saints will be immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

You still have not answered the question. "When Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19 with his armies of heaven, will the world be saying "peace and safety" at that time?

The saying "peace and safety" precondition is right before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The rapture/resurrection in 1Thessalonains5:9-11 is before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, time of God's wrath.

 

[Davy]

You still have not answered the question. "When Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19 with his armies of heaven, will the world be saying "peace and safety" at that time?

The saying "peace and safety" precondition is right before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The rapture/resurrection in 1Thessalonains5:9-11 is before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, time of God's wrath.

Well, what did Apostle Paul show in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3? And what does Daniel 8:23-25 show what times it will be?

And what kind of times did our Lord Jesus show it will be per Matthew 24:6?

That is where you will find the answer to your question. I'd be interested in hearing your understanding of those specific Scriptures.

 

[Douggg]

Well, what did Apostle Paul show in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3? And what does Daniel 8:23-25 show what times it will be?

And what kind of times did our Lord Jesus show it will be per Matthew 24:6?

That is where you will find the answer to your question. I'd be interested in hearing your understanding of those specific Scriptures.

Davy, you are give me the runaround.

The reason is because it is obvious that the rapture/resurrection has to be before the beginning of the Day of Lord, the time of God's wrath.... and you don't want to admit that the rapture/resurrection takes place before the end of the world saying "peace and safety, and not on the day that Jesus's returns as the post trib view claims.

 

[jgr]

The disciples are generally considered the twelve disciples (minus Judas). Christians, on the other hand, are the broad group of believers. If you meant all Christians, then say all Christians, and be specific - Christians in Jerusalem and Judaea.

Read it again.

"Disciples" generically includes all of the Christians in Jerusalem and Judea, all of whom escaped to Pella prior to the Roman invasion, and survived. Jesus' warnings were obviously passed down, beginning with His twelve disciples, to Jerusalem/Judean Christians in the intervening years between the Olivet discourse and the flight to Pella prior to AD70.

 

[Douggg]

"Disciples" generically includes all of the Christians in Jerusalem and Judea,

Not in the four gospels. The 12 disciples were the inner corps of Jesus followers, to day of the crucifixion. They were not Christians until after Jesus appeared to them in Luke 24:44-48 and opened their minds to the scriptures, which they then were overjoyed. Read Luke 24:33, as well, the eleven disciples.

You are just creating confusion by saying the disciples, when in 70 AD them believed upon Jesus for their salvation were commonly known as Christians.